Waht Happened to 'Toss's Great Space Fleet?

[DutyFree]

In SC1 Protoss had the greatest space fleet in the game (lore-wise). I didn't get that feeling in the actual game so much, but, hey, scouts had the best air-to-air and mass carriers = instant win (that's how it works, right?). In the original Starcraft and in Brood War, I always loved going air as 'toss, more because of aesthetics than anything else.

All that changed in SC2. Protoss seems to have the worst air units as well as the most to fear from the air (although I hesitate to use words like "worst"). I'l break it down:

Phoenix: unit for unit, they will lose to corrupters and vikings, and can only harass with constant micro (not a real problem) and energy (which runs out fast). They are also the only "raider" aircraft (like the banshee and mutalisk) that cannot attack buildings (unlike, say, mutalisks which can just overpower turrets in numbers). Blizzard has tried to make them more viable by making them build faster, but do we really want protoss's main air unit to rely on quantity over quality?

Viod Rays: these used to be almost exclusively "cheese units", until a couple nerfs severely reduced void ray rushes. Unfortunately, That also reduced their capacity as AtG attacker that the phoenix did not have (despite being the AtA and raider for 'toss combined). I've seen VRs used in legit play a few times, and it makes e hapy to see them, but they still are pretty awkward and their role is nebulous and ill-defined.

Carriers: I love carriers. Unfortunately, they're just not seen hardly ever. I see plenty of Brood Lords, but no BCs or Carriers. They seem to only be effective in large numbers, and with vikings able to be reactor-pumped and late-game zerg almost always going b

Mothership: the Mothership is a great idea for protoss. It looks like it's finally found it's use too. Unfortunately, that use seems to be expansion defense/recall help for a trapped army. Doesn't seem like an awe-inspiring ship to me.


Sorry, that got a tad long-winded, but I tried to keep QQ to a minimum. Anyway, my point is that Protoss seems to excel in ground units and hardly ever takes flight, whereas almost every zerg gets a spire (even if jsut for mutas) and most terrans I see incorporate vikings, medivacs, and banshees. I don't mind 'toss being a more ground-centered race, but it seems contrary to their theme from SC1.

Please, tell me if I am missing something, or what?

[JackhammerIV]

Well if phoenix and vikings in equal numbers then phoenixes win. Void rays are really good if you can get a lot of them. Void ray+colossus is a really strong combination. Carrier's have like the highest DPS in SC2. Once you reach a critical number of void rays or carriers it becomes really hard to stop. Can't say much else about the mothership.:P

Overall it's probably the size of the maps. On larger maps it becomes easier to get air units. Like in GSTL there was a toss that just went straight for colossus void ray skipping quite a few production cycles of warp gates against a zerg. Might have been squirtle but i can't really remember exactly. It's a lot safer doing that on larger maps. Larger maps gives more freedom to go along different tech paths. So if more big maps make their way into tournaments and Blizzard ladder then more people might use toss air in their play.

[Gradius]

Yeah Phoenix > Viking 1v1, but Viking > Phoenix in cost-for-cost. Phoenix largely fight a losing battle anytime it's not against mutalisks.

The Scout was awesome, for reasons I outlined earlier:

The scout was awesome. The SC manual was all like:

"The weakest air fighter in the Protoss arsenal, this pathetic unit is only used as a forward scout in the Protoss fleet".

And then it's ATA damage in the game was absolutely nuts. Ah, good ol' times back when Protoss were overpowered in lore.

And anybody remember the Stove strat? "You just got stoved!"

[DutyFree]

Sure, VRs and carriers are great in numbers, but what isn't? blink-stalkers, hellions and mutalisks (off the top of my head) also seem to have "critical masses", but shouldn't protoss be quality over quantity?
In SC1 the scout was refered to as a recon plane, but "against the inferior technology of other species it is a formidable combat unit on its own." Well, the other species got better fighters, so we replace the scout with... a ship that can't attack the ground, and does less damage? It just seems strange that for zerg or terran to go heavy air is nothing strange but for protoss it's highly unusual.

[JackhammerIV]

Uhhh....the quantity of toss units to reach a good critical mass is lower than that of the other races generally. Pretty much around 5 void rays or carriers becomes really scary. Even like 5 colossi. Becomes so strong it can kill things really fast. You'd need a lot more hellions/mutalisks to reach that critical mass. So it is quality over quantity.

Toss going air isn't strange at all. Toss air is good. It's not like all the air units are useless and can only be used in cheese situations. Plus phoenixes are a AtA unit like the corsair. Wouldn't it be more correct to say the phoenix replaced the corsair and that the void ray replaced the scout.

Basically toss is sticking to ground cos the ground army of toss is really strong now. It's so easy to just go colossus rather than air. So isn't it more the case colossi are so good that most toss prefer them over air.

[DemolitionSquid]

Sure, VRs and carriers are great in numbers, but what isn't? blink-stalkers, hellions and mutalisks (off the top of my head) also seem to have "critical masses", but shouldn't protoss be quality over quantity?
In SC1 the scout was refered to as a recon plane, but "against the inferior technology of other species it is a formidable combat unit on its own." Well, the other species got better fighters, so we replace the scout with... a ship that can't attack the ground, and does less damage? It just seems strange that for zerg or terran to go heavy air is nothing strange but for protoss it's highly unusual.

I feel its important to note that the Void Ray replaces the Scout, and the Phoenix replaces the Corsair. You're just asking for trouble trying to use the Phoenix like the mis-named Scout.

[spychi]

Both Phoenixes and Void Rays are good, but the MS and the Carrier need some serious re-work

[DutyFree]

It's quite possible that my view of the game from way down here in silver (where I totally don't belong of course) is much different than up in diamond and master. I rarely see air at all from protoss unless it's a VR rush.

Although, Jackhammer gives me an idea... I think i'm going to try to work out a build that involves getting about 3-5 carriers to support a WG army. Lord knows how that's going to turn out, but that's what custom matches are for!

[JackhammerIV]

Works well if the opponent underestimates how good carriers are.:P But carriers take very long to make. Maybe consider doing like colossi first then transition into carrier. But has disadvantage of he will be making vikings. Maybe templar into carrier would be better.

[DemolitionSquid]

The easiest transition is Phoenix into Carrier. Many top players are using more Phoenix these days.