About the colossus

[MulletBen]

Yeah, I really think that neither Terran nor protoss would have much trouble with more open maps. The ability to create artificial chokes using buildings and forcefields means that there is no reason to have maps with so many chokes on them already. Interesting Terrain might create interesting games, but a map with a distinct lack of chokes, in the current meta-game, might be at least, if not more interesting than Steppes, DQ, BS, JB...

[YourockLoL]

"Hey idrA Colossi isn't imba!"IdrA*enrages, kicks the camera and runs away*

[Peanutbutter]

Step 1: Scout Colossus + zealot + Sentry + Stalker
Step 2: Make lots of Marauders (as you should be doing anyway) to kill the Stalkers, Colossi, and kite the Zealots.

BUT WHAT ABOUT FORCE FEILDS!?

Step 3: Using the Barracks and Tech Labs you already have, build a few Ghosts to EMP.

BUT OMG he switched to air!

Step 4: Holy shit, lots of Barracks = lots of Marines!

Vikings and Batteries not required.

Wait, what? This is complete rubbish.

Play the goddamn game for once, instead of posting the this nonsensical bullshit.



Will get back to the OP after i get home from school.

[JackhammerIV]

It's not BS dropsonic. Terran just upgrades infantry a lot then just goes tons of barracks and starports for medivacs. I remember a TvP last year in MLG i think when the terran just went like 13+ barracks and full upgrades against colossus player and just kept expanding and pumping more and more units. It's a counter with the idea of "I'll just have more shit and can replace it so so fast you will die eventually." It ended up being a very long game but it still worked. So yeah DSquid's suggestion isn't rubbish.

[Peanutbutter]

It's not BS dropsonic. Terran just upgrades infantry a lot then just goes tons of barracks and starports for medivacs. I remember a TvP last year in MLG i think when the terran just went like 13+ barracks and full upgrades against colossus player and just kept expanding and pumping more and more units. It's a counter with the idea of "I'll just have more shit and can replace it so so fast you will die eventually." It ended up being a very long game but it still worked. So yeah DSquid's suggestion isn't rubbish.

Yeah. If only it was that black and white.

[JackhammerIV]

Ok Drop.....you can dislike DSquid's suggestion but it's still a valid strategy. It might not be the most efficient but it can still win if the terran knows how to play it.

[Peanutbutter]

Ok Drop.....you can dislike DSquid's suggestion but it's still a valid strategy. It might not be the most efficient but it can still win if the terran knows how to play it.

What you should also take under consideration, is that the metagame has changed drastically since last years MLG.

Could you please provide a replay, or a VOD of that MLG game?

[JackhammerIV]

Uhhhh drop it's been a year since then. And I can't even remember the exact tournament or players. I do remember Day9 was casting it. And drop the metagame hasn't changed enough for mass infantry style to be completely countered. It might not be a popular strategy now considering mech play is starting to get back in. But note that the last time mech play in TvP was reasonably popular was the beta. It's all player preferences and if they can get builds to work. Just look at MarineKing. His style of mass marines shouldn't work normally but he makes it work and takes games off solid "normal" builds.

Ok the game I remember TvP where terran went mass infantry was on Steppes of War. Started off with a lot of pressure off stim timings. Protoss managed to hold off. As terran was pressuring and dropping got up 3 bases. Started making more and more barracks and double engineering bay with an armory for infantry upgrades. A few starports for medivacs. Protoss got a later 3rd base but got some colossus up. Terran took the gold while pressuring with infantry. Just stimming in and killing off colossus. Making multiple pronged attacks at the 2nd and 3rd base of protoss. Protoss keeps trying to advance to take his own gold/pressure terran's gold. Terran units just keep pumping out over and over. Terran keeps losing his whole army but quickly rebuilding it off the 13+ raxes. Day9 keeps saying terran is so dead right now since he's sticking to just infantry against colossus. Then the game still goes on. Protoss just can't kill off terran. Time keeps going on and protoss just can't deal a killing blow and slowly losing colossi and units. Terran starts to take the expos off the golds blocked by rocks. Then like 10-15mins after the commentators were saying terran should be dead terran breaks the protoss army and stims in and just starts wrecking the whole base with more and more units rallying in.

I watched that game live so I can say that DSquid's suggestion of a TvP strat has merit. It's hard to do and requires a lot of skill and concentration but it puts an immense amount of pressure on protoss.

[TheRabidDeer]

I don't think this is an example of an "imbalance," just a less-than-perfect game design. (You don't need colossus to win either, you can use HTs).

I want to elaborate a little on this. Protoss is a race that just has fewer units and are either specialized or very general. The core army of a protoss (sentry/stalker/zealot) is very generic with no really strong damage dealers. Zealots do quite a bit of damage, but they end up soaking damage more than anything. Stalkers dont do much damage, but they are ranged and cheap to get and are one of the few ground units protoss has that can hit air (to handle banshees, vikings, corruptors or mutalisks), so they are vital too. Sentries dont deal much damage but are great support units. Put those three together and you have a core that works great against armies in small numbers.

However, once you get to the large numbers of hydras/roaches/marines/marauders, where your zealots arent able to do anything before dying, your damage output drops while theirs is steadily increasing. So, you need to deal heavy area damage with a select few units and let your core do more soaking than damage dealing.

There are things that do "OK" for a while... charge lets zealots get a little damage in before dying and blink lets you keep stalkers alive as long as you possibly can, but in general you are taking more damage than you are dealing. Area damage is just a necessary thing to make up for that fact. If protoss had no area damage, they would get destroyed every game that went beyond like 12 minutes if the other player defensively 2 based then attacked with a huge army.

EDIT: In regards to the bio vs colossus, itll work against a protoss that is using 1 hotkey and letting his colossus camp over his army. If hes keeping them behind his army then you cant stim and attack the colossus. Top tier control has improved drastically over the last year, and you will sacrifice a lot lot lot of units if you try to kill a colossus (particularly if you cant hit all of his sentries and he just FF blocks half your army)

[Peanutbutter]

Uhhhh drop it's been a year since then. And I can't even remember the exact tournament or players. I do remember Day9 was casting it. And drop the metagame hasn't changed enough for mass infantry style to be completely countered. It might not be a popular strategy now considering mech play is starting to get back in. But note that the last time mech play in TvP was reasonably popular was the beta. It's all player preferences and if they can get builds to work. Just look at MarineKing. His style of mass marines shouldn't work normally but he makes it work and takes games off solid "normal" builds.

Ok the game I remember TvP where terran went mass infantry was on Steppes of War. Started off with a lot of pressure off stim timings. Protoss managed to hold off. As terran was pressuring and dropping got up 3 bases. Started making more and more barracks and double engineering bay with an armory for infantry upgrades. A few starports for medivacs. Protoss got a later 3rd base but got some colossus up. Terran took the gold while pressuring with infantry. Just stimming in and killing off colossus. Making multiple pronged attacks at the 2nd and 3rd base of protoss. Protoss keeps trying to advance to take his own gold/pressure terran's gold. Terran units just keep pumping out over and over. Terran keeps losing his whole army but quickly rebuilding it off the 13+ raxes. Day9 keeps saying terran is so dead right now since he's sticking to just infantry against colossus. Then the game still goes on. Protoss just can't kill off terran. Time keeps going on and protoss just can't deal a killing blow and slowly losing colossi and units. Terran starts to take the expos off the golds blocked by rocks. Then like 10-15mins after the commentators were saying terran should be dead terran breaks the protoss army and stims in and just starts wrecking the whole base with more and more units rallying in.

I watched that game live so I can say that DSquid's suggestion of a TvP strat has merit. It's hard to do and requires a lot of skill and concentration but it puts an immense amount of pressure on protoss.

Sounds like the terran had an advantage expansion wise.

Anyways, as TheRabidDeer explained above this post, the protoss must have had very poor colossus control. I really don't see, how T infantry can snipe a colossus with nine range, when you have zealots/stalkers and whatever in the front.

I want to elaborate a little on this. Protoss is a race that just has fewer units and are either specialized or very general. The core army of a protoss (sentry/stalker/zealot) is very generic with no really strong damage dealers. Zealots do quite a bit of damage, but they end up soaking damage more than anything. Stalkers dont do much damage, but they are ranged and cheap to get and are one of the few ground units protoss has that can hit air (to handle banshees, vikings, corruptors or mutalisks), so they are vital too. Sentries dont deal much damage but are great support units. Put those three together and you have a core that works great against armies in small numbers.

However, once you get to the large numbers of hydras/roaches/marines/marauders, where your zealots arent able to do anything before dying, your damage output drops while theirs is steadily increasing. So, you need to deal heavy area damage with a select few units and let your core do more soaking than damage dealing.

There are things that do "OK" for a while... charge lets zealots get a little damage in before dying and blink lets you keep stalkers alive as long as you possibly can, but in general you are taking more damage than you are dealing. Area damage is just a necessary thing to make up for that fact. If protoss had no area damage, they would get destroyed every game that went beyond like 12 minutes if the other player defensively 2 based then attacked with a huge army.

Very well written, sir. This perfectly explains why protoss' need colossus/templars/AOE damage mid/lategame.