About the colossus

[Gt2slurp]

I do want to make this thread to talk about the current state of the protoss and specifically the colossus. A lot of discussion happened, a lot of whining has been thrown out but no one seems to have a clear idea about the subject.

As an introduction to the constructive discussion that i want to create, i suggest the first episode of «Imbalanced» by Artosis and Idra. The first part is an introduction to the show and the second a fairly good painting of what is going on.



EDIT: damn youtube link doesn't work, can someone fix this =(, here's the link http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=UYtfBDJXq0Q
EDIT2: solved

I decided to point this out for 2 reason. First, I miss the long and epic discussion of Beta theorycraft (DemoSquid XD). Those where very constructive and inovating, they where true deep discussion. Second, why talk about the colossus? Because i watch a lot of replay, like 4-5 a day, sometimes more, and everytime a protoss lose he got no colossus and everytime he win he got 5-6 colossus, always... it just bother me.

As stated in «Imbalanced», the protoss seems "colossus-centric".

As another reference, here's «The Extinction of Protoss: Nature or Nurture» published on gosugamers.net. Part 1 and Part 2

Is the colossus the problem? is the colossus imbalance? Do protosses got another tech choice?

Discuss fellow gamers!!!

[JackhammerIV]

That's how you do the youtube thingy. Use the command "youtube" then "/youtube" in the square brackets "[" and just put in the youtube multicharac code thingy "UYtfBDJXq0Q" that's at the end of the long string with a = thing on the URL. No idea what you would call all this. So i'm sticking with thingy.:P

Plus I already made a thread.:P
http://sclegacy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11149

So maybe an admin will close this and you can copy paste your comments over or something.

EDIT: Maybe can keep the thread since it's focusing on the colossus. No idea. Admin judgement I guess.

In direct reply to the OP, well I don't feel the colossus is that imbalanced unless i'm up against it.:P Just a protoss player bias. But i do get why early on there were complaints that the colossus could one shot zerglings without them even touching the colossus. The colossus just does a sick amount of damage. Get enough of them and things just melt. But then protoss has quite a few units like that like void rays and carriers. Enough of any of those or a combination does crazy sick damage. The problems highlighted in the imbalanced video were mostly to do with PvP and PvZ. Zergs and toss just need a good way to counter colossus. Protoss might have it with the void ray now but can't be too sure of it yet. For zerg it's much harder.

[Gradius]

everytime a protoss lose he got no colossus and everytime he win he got 5-6 colossus

I don't think this is an example of an "imbalance," just a less-than-perfect game design. (You don't need colossus to win either, you can use HTs).

[Gt2slurp]

Sorry if i made a double thread, thus this one is not about the show imbalance but about the colossus. Lock or merge if it is inappropriate.

In direct reply to the OP, well I don't feel the colossus is that imbalanced unless i'm up against it.:P Just a protoss player bias. But i do get why early on there were complaints that the colossus could one shot zerglings without them even touching the colossus. The colossus just does a sick amount of damage. Get enough of them and things just melt. But then protoss has quite a few units like that like void rays and carriers. Enough of any of those or a combination does crazy sick damage. The problems highlighted in the imbalanced video were mostly to do with PvP and PvZ. Zergs and toss just need a good way to counter colossus. Protoss might have it with the void ray now but can't be too sure of it yet. For zerg it's much harder.

I am currently playing random, so i am not deeply into a race right now. I tried a lot of zealot/HT mix in team and solo game, it is good for a moment, but after a couple of battle it goes worse and worse. Colossus are like a storm each time they attack when they are more than 3! Anyway, i want to ear some opinion because it is only a feeling, i am not a pro but i am concerned.

Thanks for the youtube tuto, i'll edit.

I don't think this is an example of an "imbalance," just a less-than-perfect game design.

You are right on this. I am not crying on imbalance in this sentence, just a strange feeling of: « sure colossus/stalker ball, again...». It get pretty boring.

[DemolitionSquid]

Originally, everyone hated the Colossus. I remember back in beta, it was "expencive and useless." Truth was, no one was using it properly. They were treating it like a Reaver and Shuttle, dumping it into the fray, hoping for splash, trying to micro it. Its only now that we see its real power, because we're using for what it is: a long ranged glass cannon.

Colossi are being countered improperly, and that is all.

What happened to stimmed Marauders running in to pick them off? No no, I need lots of Vikings!

Pisses me off.

[Carsickness]

Don't forget that most of the current maps are very Colossi friendly as well. Cliffs and ramps are EVERYWHERE.

[Genopath]

The whole discussion of imbalance is irrelevant, as I've stated in my other post.
http://sclegacy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11149

They do not define imbalance properly. They do have interesting arguments which if properly presented could present a case but without the proper framework their discussion is nothing more than the opinion of two professional players.

Personally, I know they are powerful when properly combined with other units (Stalker, Collosi and Void Rays are a very deadly combo) but they are certainly not unstoppable.

[JackhammerIV]

Not to mention chokes too carsickness. Any form of choke like a ramp which funnels units and forces all the units to be clumped up makes the colossus so amazing. So so so amazing. Then forcefields + colossus = awesome sauce. I need to remind myself to get hallucinate for hallucinated colossus to break forcefields. I still wish though as I have for quite some time that archons would be massive and break forcefields.:P

[Gt2slurp]

Colossi are being countered improperly, and that is all.

What happened to stimmed Marauders running in to pick them off? No no, I need lots of Vikings!

I disagree with you on this. Tech switching on the fly as terran is a real pain in the ass. Marauder to viking to marauder isn't short and sweet. If you mass up marauder, stim and take out the first or the first two colossus fine, then protoss easily make zealot and sentry. Your marauder are now useless. So you make a painful transition into viking, weakening your ground army, the protoss scout a glimpse of it. So he make stalker, no transition, just stalker on cyber core, then your viking are screwed. The viable option from there is siege tank, if he live another harsh transition.

That being said, TvP colossus isn't the real problem. Critical ball of protoss unit are always hard to deal with, no matter the match-up. This is racial design.

The real problem is PvP and PvZ. PvP because this match up is a race to colossus no matter what. PvZ because zerg units are weak vs splash damage in general and colossus leak of viable counter from the zerg player.

Don't forget that most of the current maps are very Colossi friendly as well. Cliffs and ramps are EVERYWHERE.

This. Maybe open map will change this and new strategies will emerge. I cheer up for a meta-game shift after the introduction of new maps.

[DemolitionSquid]

I disagree with you on this. Tech switching on the fly as terran is a real pain in the ass. Marauder to viking to marauder isn't short and sweet. If you mass up marauder, stim and take out the first or the first two colossus fine, then protoss easily make zealot and sentry. Your marauder are now useless. So you make a painful transition into viking, weakening your ground army, the protoss scout a glimpse of it. So he make stalker, no transition, just stalker on cyber core, then your viking are screwed. The viable option from there is siege tank, if he live another harsh transition.

Step 1: Scout Colossus + zealot + Sentry + Stalker
Step 2: Make lots of Marauders (as you should be doing anyway) to kill the Stalkers, Colossi, and kite the Zealots.

BUT WHAT ABOUT FORCE FEILDS!?

Step 3: Using the Barracks and Tech Labs you already have, build a few Ghosts to EMP.

BUT OMG he switched to air!

Step 4: Holy shit, lots of Barracks = lots of Marines!

Vikings and Batteries not required.