The Great Overmind Roulette

[Turalyon]

As a mater of fact I have considered the morality of killing game for food. I think it is acceptable, as is the inverse killing of humans by predatory animals, even though I understand wanting to avoid or prevent such deaths. In fact, I think it's the near decimation of predatory animals out of preventative self-preservation that is by far the least moral of those. Anyway, the Zerg aren't just feeding on other species, they're completely wiping them out. And more than that, the Overmind is capable of higher thought, of self-examination.

That's curious. Would you call flesh-eating viruses that feed off and most likely kills any living organisms it encounters not evil or immoral because they are not sapient? Isn't what you're saying relative, too?

At the least, you can argue that the Zerg are not exactly out to destroy all life (or that's how they were initially conceived - they wanted their ideal of perfection) and those that they do attack (which they do so only to absorb there traits) can be seen as a form of 'improvement' in the long-run, since they give their 'victims' the benefits of the many Zergy traits they've accumulated.

[FanaticTemplar]

That's curious. Would you call flesh-eating viruses that feed off and most likely kills any living organisms it encounters not evil or immoral because they are not sapient? Isn't what you're saying relative, too?

No, I wouldn't consider it relatively moral or immoral, I'd just consider it as completely lacking the quality of morality, like an avalanche or a tornado.

At the least, you can argue that the Zerg are not exactly out to destroy all life (or that's how they were initially conceived - they wanted their ideal of perfection) and those that they do attack (which they do so only to absorb there traits) can be seen as a form of 'improvement' in the long-run, since they give their 'victims' the benefits of the many Zergy traits they've accumulated.

Their victims are dead, the Zerg are simply using their genetic code to create more Zerg. As for the Infested, from what we've seen they're really screwed. Not only have we seen Infested Terrans begging for death, but the others we've seen are either living explosives, or slow and crippled from harmful mutations.

'Course the thing about the Overmind consuming all life is lifted from Tassadar. I'm assuming he's a credible source, but he might not be.

[Turalyon]

No, I wouldn't consider it relatively moral or immoral, I'd just consider it as completely lacking the quality of morality, like an avalanche or a tornado.

Right, so the virus is amoral. When we are looking at the Zerg however, they too are a victim (it's a poor word choice I know, but I hope you know what I'm getting at) of their nature; In this case it's their assimilation of other species. Question is: Are you saying that the Zerg had stopped being amoral because of the Overmind, a gestalt representation of the nature of the Zerg, being sapient?

Their victims are dead, the Zerg are simply using their genetic code to create more Zerg. As for the Infested, from what we've seen they're really screwed. Not only have we seen Infested Terrans begging for death, but the others we've seen are either living explosives, or slow and crippled from harmful mutations.

'Course the thing about the Overmind consuming all life is lifted from Tassadar. I'm assuming he's a credible source, but he might not be.

That is a somewhat strange assumption you have about how the Zerg assimilate aliens. That description of killing everything to use their genetic code to create more Zerg and in turn to get more genetic code, is more akin to WH40K's Tyranids (although one can debate whether the Zerg really are exact rip-offs or not) than Zerg.

Assimilation of alien species by the Zerg originally required their hosts to be alive so that they could be merged with a Zerg symbiote which would then be used to produce generations of offspring that would then eventually culminate in the desired Zergified form.

Infestation can be seen as a form of combat-assimilation where there is no time to incorporate the genetic material properly and as a way to support the Zerg army in pacifying resistance - hence the problems you noted. It is supposed to be "horrific" because it's application is for war-time use.

Tassadar's quote about the Overmind is a "to-be-expected" reaction after being told that the Overmind forcefully assimilates beings that it thinks are strong, especially when it thinks they are the strongest. Afterall, he is not free from bias, no matter how credible he appears to be. Tassadar speaking on behalf of the Overmind does not necessarily mean that that is exactly what's going to happen. Who knows, the Overmind may well have just stopped after assimilating the Protoss. Unlikely, sure, but stranger things than that has happened, so why not?

[FanaticTemplar]

Right, so the virus is amoral. When we are looking at the Zerg however, they too are a victim (it's a poor word choice I know, but I hope you know what I'm getting at) of their nature; In this case it's their assimilation of other species. Question is: Are you saying that the Zerg had stopped being amoral because of the Overmind, a gestalt representation of the nature of the Zerg, being sapient?

Yes.

That is a somewhat strange assumption you have about how the Zerg assimilate aliens. That description of killing everything to use their genetic code to create more Zerg and in turn to get more genetic code, is more akin to WH40K's Tyranids (although one can debate whether the Zerg really are exact rip-offs or not) than Zerg.

Assimilation of alien species by the Zerg originally required their hosts to be alive so that they could be merged with a Zerg symbiote which would then be used to produce generations of offspring that would then eventually culminate in the desired Zergified form.

That's true, but those original Zerg no longer exists, its most similar counterpart in the current Swarm is the larva, which mutates into the desired forms. Of course it's true that some original creatures need to be assimilated for the correct genetic structure to be recorded into the Swarm, but that's not exactly ideal either, is it? Like the colonial European powers bringing civilisation to the lesser people of America, Africa and Asia, even if there are actual benefits from the exploitation, the deprivation of freedom isn't exactly moral.

Tassadar's quote about the Overmind is a "to-be-expected" reaction after being told that the Overmind forcefully assimilates beings that it thinks are strong, especially when it thinks they are the strongest. Afterall, he is not free from bias, no matter how credible he appears to be. Tassadar speaking on behalf of the Overmind does not necessarily mean that that is exactly what's going to happen. Who knows, the Overmind may well have just stopped after assimilating the Protoss. Unlikely, sure, but stranger things than that has happened, so why not?

Possible, but Zeratul doesn't disagree, and he's had insight into the Overmind's thoughts. Come to think of it, there's also the Overmind's own quote that after assimilating the Protoss, "Thenceforth shall all feel the wrath of the eternal Swarm... For the hour of judgement is come!"

[Turalyon]

Of course it's true that some original creatures need to be assimilated for the correct genetic structure to be recorded into the Swarm, but that's not exactly ideal either, is it? Like the colonial European powers bringing civilisation to the lesser people of America, Africa and Asia, even if there are actual benefits from the exploitation, the deprivation of freedom isn't exactly moral.

Sure, the Overmind may be responsible for perverting the nature of the Zerg through its intellect and it's ensuing actions are therefore subject to moralising, but the mandate for assimilation was not borne from an 'intellectual exercise' insofar as your example of the European powers "civilising lesser" people.

It is a natural and fundamental part of what being a Zerg is, which you said previously was an amoral action if there was no higher intelligence guiding it. Would you still call the Zerg evil if they were just as successful (with assimilation being a key basis for that success) as they are now, but without the Overmind?

Possible, but Zeratul doesn't disagree, and he's had insight into the Overmind's thoughts. Come to think of it, there's also the Overmind's own quote that after assimilating the Protoss, "Thenceforth shall all feel the wrath of the eternal Swarm... For the hour of judgement is come!"

Zeratul is likewise as biased as Tassadar is - of course he would agree with Tassadar. He's just putting his own perspective on what he saw of the Overminds' mind.

At the time, (as WoL has pretty much confirmed that universal destruction was the goal of the directive manipulated Overmind) the Overmind quote can be interpreted a number of ways - one of which being the possible destruction of the whole universe. It probably held no more significance than just being rhetoric and exuberance from the Overmind at the thought of nearing it's goal (not to say that it wasn't full of pure win ).

[FanaticTemplar]

Sure, the Overmind may be responsible for perverting the nature of the Zerg through its intellect and it's ensuing actions are therefore subject to moralising, but the mandate for assimilation was not borne from an 'intellectual exercise' insofar as your example of the European powers "civilising lesser" people.

It is a natural and fundamental part of what being a Zerg is, which you said previously was an amoral action if there was no higher intelligence guiding it. Would you still call the Zerg evil if they were just as successful (with assimilation being a key basis for that success) as they are now, but without the Overmind?

Without the Overmind, or Cerebrate, or Kerrigan or anything like them? No, I wouldn't call them evil.

Zeratul is likewise as biased as Tassadar is - of course he would agree with Tassadar. He's just putting his own perspective on what he saw of the Overminds' mind.

At the time, (as WoL has pretty much confirmed that universal destruction was the goal of the directive manipulated Overmind) the Overmind quote can be interpreted a number of ways - one of which being the possible destruction of the whole universe. It probably held no more significance than just being rhetoric and exuberance from the Overmind at the thought of nearing it's goal (not to say that it wasn't full of pure win ).

Come on... you know it means what it says.

[hack59]

Actually, interesting you bring up European colonization of the world -- would you say that all those Europeans were "evil"? With hindsight I'm sure we all agree that lots of regrettable things happened and that we look on differently today, but really, was everyone in the past "evil"? Again, "hostile", "aggressive", "territorial", "expansionist" -- granted, no doubt. We would certainly disapprove of similar actions if they were to happen today. But I hope we also know enough about history to appreciate that the situation was a bit more complex than warranting the simplistic label of "evil". I would also hope that fictional stories, even in video games, are able to accommodate something slightly more complex than a Disney "evil", and that the Zerg in SC1 might go a little bit in that direction. Of course, with only 30 mostly gameplay driven missions there are always limitations, but I'd like to think that there can be some genuine depth even behind the Zerg.

"Thenceforth shall all feel the wrath of the eternal Swarm... For the hour of judgement is come!"

That's a good quote. I don't really know what to make of it, and I would like to attribute it to the writers being carried away by their desire to create a dramatic moment. I don't really see how it fits - when did anyone ever speak of judgement? Who even wants to judge anyone? And why is there talk of "wrath" -- who has been wronged and has any reason to be wrathful? All this doesn't really add up. But if you look at geek scifi/scifan rhetoric, you find words like "wrath", "revenge" and "vengeance" thrown around soo liberally that I fear that they're just the junior writer's go-to words for creating drama, rather than a conscious effort. ("Revenge of the Sith" anyone? What do they have to be vengeful for?? It's never shown that they've ever been treated badly or unfairly.)

So yes, that overmind phrase does make the overmind sound evil, and I'd rather pretend it didn't happen because the story would have been better without it. Nothing is perfect, I suppose.

[FanaticTemplar]

Actually, interesting you bring up European colonization of the world -- would you say that all those Europeans were "evil"? With hindsight I'm sure we all agree that lots of regrettable things happened and that we look on differently today, but really, was everyone in the past "evil"? Again, "hostile", "aggressive", "territorial", "expansionist" -- granted, no doubt. We would certainly disapprove of similar actions if they were to happen today. But I hope we also know enough about history to appreciate that the situation was a bit more complex than warranting the simplistic label of "evil". I would also hope that fictional stories, even in video games, are able to accommodate something slightly more complex than a Disney "evil", and that the Zerg in SC1 might go a little bit in that direction. Of course, with only 30 mostly gameplay driven missions there are always limitations, but I'd like to think that there can be some genuine depth even behind the Zerg.

Of course not, 'being evil' and 'committing evil' are entirely different things. I was bringing up the example as immoral action, to counter the assertion that Zerg assimilation made the base species 'better' and using that as justification.

That's a good quote. I don't really know what to make of it, and I would like to attribute it to the writers being carried away by their desire to create a dramatic moment. I don't really see how it fits - when did anyone ever speak of judgement? Who even wants to judge anyone? And why is there talk of "wrath" -- who has been wronged and has any reason to be wrathful? All this doesn't really add up. But if you look at geek scifi/scifan rhetoric, you find words like "wrath", "revenge" and "vengeance" thrown around soo liberally that I fear that they're just the junior writer's go-to words for creating drama, rather than a conscious effort. ("Revenge of the Sith" anyone? What do they have to be vengeful for?? It's never shown that they've ever been treated badly or unfairly.)

I think you're mistaken here. Wrath is only extreme anger, much like 'fury' which is another word often used to describe the Swarm, it has nothing to do with being wronged. It just means that the Zerg's aggression and violence will be felt by all. As for the hour of judgment, I expect that's an expression likely associated with Christian mythology, about Jesus Christ returning to judge the souls of the dead and usher them to their final destination. I doubt it's a reference to the judgment so much as the end of the world. Obviously it isn't a good expression for the Zerg to use, but then they aren't even really speaking English anyway.

[hack59]

I think you're mistaken here. Wrath is only extreme anger, much like 'fury' which is another word often used to describe the Swarm, it has nothing to do with being wronged.

You're right, no revenge here. But the same can be asked about anger and fury: Why are the Zerg angry or furious? I mean, I can see why they'd be rampaging wildly (in order to spread and expand), but what do they have to be angry about? I still think that "wrath" is one of those words given to scifi writers in a big go-to box for dramatic effect.

I can see why in the "Wrath of Khan" Khan was angry. In the "Wrath of Kane" I'm already a bit more confused (if anyone, it's the GDI who should be angry, not Kane). Hm. Does anyone know any other "wraths"? "Grapes of Wrath", maybe, though I guess the Israelis were really pissed.

Anyway, as I said, I don't think that overmind line is a very good part of the SC1 dialogue...

[Turalyon]

Of course not, 'being evil' and 'committing evil' are entirely different things. I was bringing up the example as immoral action, to counter the assertion that Zerg assimilation made the base species 'better' and using that as justification.

You should also add that it (Zerg assimilation) is only immoral when there is a higher intelligence guiding (ie: the Overmind) that action since Zerg assimilation is actually inherently self-justifying (it's what is natural to them originally) and therefore amoral.

You're right, no revenge here. But the same can be asked about anger and fury: Why are the Zerg angry or furious? I mean, I can see why they'd be rampaging wildly (in order to spread and expand), but what do they have to be angry about? I still think that "wrath" is one of those words given to scifi writers in a big go-to box for dramatic effect.

I can see why in the "Wrath of Khan" Khan was angry. In the "Wrath of Kane" I'm already a bit more confused (if anyone, it's the GDI who should be angry, not Kane). Hm. Does anyone know any other "wraths"? "Grapes of Wrath", maybe, though I guess the Israelis were really pissed.

Anyway, as I said, I don't think that overmind line is a very good part of the SC1 dialogue...

It was just a flowery phrase which has no deeper meaning. It's much like someone saying "I OWNZZ ALL U MOTHERF****S!" when you you think you've gained the upperhand over a difficult opponent. As I said before it was just rhetoric and over-exuberance. Sapient beings are known to do these things from time to time.

If you had to attach any significance to that line, the Overmind is just saying, to itself no less, that "if you thought the Zerg are dangerous now, then you know nothing of the might (the "wrath/fury" it was talking about) I shall soon possess. Beware all who oppose me!" Typical megalomania ranting, you see.

If the Overmind was really going to seriously destroy everything from that point on it was doing a piss-poor job of it since the Protoss where embroiled in civil war on the very planet it had just successfully invaded and it could not even capitalise on that to finish them off?!