How did Tychus find Raynor?

[Turalyon]

What are you talking about? You're the one who said:

What more do you want?

Raynor's failures in making his own headway is not necessarily due all to Mengsk successfully repelling or hunting him. As you seem to be implying with your take on Raynor's "victories" up till the end of WoL, Raynor's efforts are largely worthless. Raynor maybe successfully having a large number of victories against the Dominion (as he does in WoL) but they are overall, insignificant victories in the greater scheme of things and the Dominion. The rebellions "failures" are largely due to Raynor realising that what he does is useless - it's a wasted effort.

The above has nothing to do with Mengsk's exhorbitant spending on just trying to find Raynor since the "no lead or progress whatsoever" part I was talking about before was my paraphrasing/ inference given by that news lady (whatever her name is) in her media report in that cinematic Public Enemy. We are told this - this is not what I think.

What I want is more justification and background of those 4 years. I just can't believe nothing interesting has happened all that time. Sure, we can use it to justify Raynor's cooling his temperament against Kerrigan, but can we use it to justify that nothing else remotely interesting happened until WoL began? I'm beginning to fantasise all the wondrous shenanigans that Raynor was capable of in keeping away from Mengsk within those past four years. Don't know if this would be more interesting than what we got in WoL, but it leaves a gaping hole full of questions that I wish I didn't have

1- Raynor found Tosh and Hanson, not the other way 'round.

Only after they sent a (distress in Hanson's case) call that Raynor was so conveniently able to pick-up and help. Jeez, is Raynor that easy to sucker-in? Hello, fake distress calls anyone?

2- You have no basis at all for your claim that technology should make finding Raynor a breeze. Again, space is vast.

Again, I have all the justification I need from previous examples of plot devices 'discovered' in the SC universe such as the Psi Disruptor and now this artifact. "What this? A breakthrough in the detection of Battlecruiser warp signatures that was hitherto impossible which can also detect and identify individual BCs because each Battlecruiser that was ever built had some 'yet to be explained technobabble engine until now' and is conveniently sized to fit in my pocket?"

3- Yes, sending someone to assassinate Raynor is feasible. If you look back, you'll see that wasn't the point. Evidently assassinating Raynor would simply mean that the rebellion would pass into the hands of someone else - someone Mengsk doesn't know - without even talking about the 'martyr' possibility Raynor mentions. There's no point in killing Raynor if you can't crush the rebellion, and assassination won't allow Mengsk to do that.

But haven't you been implying the Rebellion is essentially a "toothless tiger" (based on how insignificant their victories are) anyway? Assasination of Raynor would be like a mercy killing ie: chopping the head off the toothless tiger

Raynor was an annoyance. This money will allow him to be a marginally more irritating annoyance.

Ah, but to Raynor, this would be part of a significant victory, despite what you think.

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[Kimera757]

Sure he was. He did it in Eye of the Storm. Hell, he had a fleet of Battlecruisers then. Besides, you overestimate the value of those resources. The Devil's Playground gives 100,000 credits for 8,000 jorium-rich minerals.

This is an example of Gameplay vs Storyline segregation. By the early Second Great War, Raynor's Raiders complain that their rebellion only has one capital ship (I think you can view this after Breakout, where Raynor is shown with a fleet!).

What I want is more justification and background of those 4 years. I just can't believe nothing interesting has happened all that time. Sure, we can use it to justify Raynor's cooling his temperament against Kerrigan, but can we use it to justify that nothing else remotely interesting happened until WoL began? I'm beginning to fantasise all the wondrous shenanigans that Raynor was capable of in keeping away from Mengsk within those past four years. Don't know if this would be more interesting than what we got in WoL, but it leaves a gaping hole full of questions that I wish I didn't have

There's quite a bit of lore about the Interbellum.

Raynor was "spotlighted" for conducting terrorist attacks in a newsflash in "Why We Fight", and I get the impression that anytime terrans do something bad to the Dominion, Mengsk blames Raynor. (Madness, or strategy? Maybe he can claim to be able to beat anyone but Raynor.)

In the comic, we were told that Raynor stuck it to the Dominion as often and as hard as we could, but he wasn't fighting the Dominion in the comic itself. (Instead, a Dominion plot was executed against him, without Mengsk's approval, as Tamsen Cauley made clear at the end of Issue #1.)

Before the war actually started, Raynor traveled to Mar Sara, in order to relive old memories, but he learned on the news that the Dominion had just taken it over. It's suggested that's why Raynor happened to be on Mar Sara when the war broke out. What are the coincidences that an alien artifact happened to be there?

[FanaticTemplar]

Raynor's failures in making his own headway is not necessarily due all to Mengsk successfully repelling or hunting him. As you seem to be implying with your take on Raynor's "victories" up till the end of WoL, Raynor's efforts are largely worthless. Raynor maybe successfully having a large number of victories against the Dominion (as he does in WoL) but they are overall, insignificant victories in the greater scheme of things and the Dominion. The rebellions "failures" are largely due to Raynor realising that what he does is useless - it's a wasted effort.

The above has nothing to do with Mengsk's exhorbitant spending on just trying to find Raynor since the "no lead or progress whatsoever" part I was talking about before was my paraphrasing/ inference given by that news lady (whatever her name is) in her media report in that cinematic Public Enemy. We are told this - this is not what I think.

Good point. At the time I jumped to the conclusion that Mengsk was hiding his various aggressive military actions against recalcitrant Dominion worlds under the 'fighting terrorist Raynor' heading in his annual budget report. But I really have no strong evidence for this, so I should assume you are correct. I don't really have much to say though, I don't know enough about that period to say anything beyond pure hypotheticals.

What I want is more justification and background of those 4 years. I just can't believe nothing interesting has happened all that time. Sure, we can use it to justify Raynor's cooling his temperament against Kerrigan, but can we use it to justify that nothing else remotely interesting happened until WoL began? I'm beginning to fantasise all the wondrous shenanigans that Raynor was capable of in keeping away from Mengsk within those past four years. Don't know if this would be more interesting than what we got in WoL, but it leaves a gaping hole full of questions that I wish I didn't have

I think some of that is covered in expanded material - books, comics, and so forth, but I don't know much about those.

Only after they sent a (distress in Hanson's case) call that Raynor was so conveniently able to pick-up and help. Jeez, is Raynor that easy to sucker-in? Hello, fake distress calls anyone?

Yes, this is a possible trap that could be laid for Raynor.

Again, I have all the justification I need from previous examples of plot devices 'discovered' in the SC universe such as the Psi Disruptor and now this artifact. "What this? A breakthrough in the detection of Battlecruiser warp signatures that was hitherto impossible which can also detect and identify individual BCs because each Battlecruiser that was ever built had some 'yet to be explained technobabble engine until now' and is conveniently sized to fit in my pocket?"

You're citing two atrocious pieces of writing there . Really, I can only wish there were less horrid plot devices like the Disruptor or Artefact, and I won't hold the absence of one against the storyline. Quite the contrary really. Besides, Mengsk was never able to find the Disrupter either. I guess you could call that incompetence, I admit that my own judgment was 'then how the hell did you find it while just randomly flying by?'

But haven't you been implying the Rebellion is essentially a "toothless tiger" (based on how insignificant their victories are) anyway? Assasination of Raynor would be like a mercy killing ie: chopping the head off the toothless tiger

Heh. And Mengsk is merciful?

Though I should specify that the Horner missions culminate in a massive blow to the Dominion, stealing the Odin and turning the population against Mengsk. 'Course by that time the Dominion armies were preoccupied by the Zerg, and Mengsk had Tosh at least and possibly some Spectres.

[Turalyon]

I don't really have much to say though, I don't know enough about that period to say anything beyond pure hypotheticals.

I think some of that is covered in expanded material - books, comics, and so forth, but I don't know much about those.

I wasn't specifically asking or expecting a justifiction/clarification about certain plot vacuums in WoL from you, FT. You've done a pretty good job in shaking some of my questions off, I must say.

It's a shame really, that we have to rely on secondary source material to fill in gaps or our own hypothetical takes to answer something so simple as to "why did nothing significant happen in the K sector for those 4 past years?"

The massive changes in status quo during Sc1, BW and WoL would have each happened in the space of a few months at the most and yet nothing major happens for 4 whole years?!?! WoL is a whirlwind of major universe-changing (SC universe, I mean) events separated by 4 years from another whirlwind of events that was Sc1 and BW that could just have happened 6 months (or whatever) after BW and you'd be none the wiser.

I mean, sure, something can be contrived to say something major did happen (events in books I suppose), but WoL never makes any mention of them or hint at any major or recent changes/turmoil within the 4 years even if they indeed really happened at all. Aside from how the whole game looks/designed, which is irrelevant to what I'm trying to say, there seems to be no sense of 'passage of time' (not one spanning 4 years at the least) between BW and WoL. The "4 years has past" feels so arbitrary...

Yes, this is a possible trap that could be laid for Raynor.

A curiously old trick that Raynor has somehow avoided (survived?!?) for the past 4 years........

You're citing two atrocious pieces of writing there . Really, I can only wish there were less horrid plot devices like the Disruptor or Artefact, and I won't hold the absence of one against the storyline. Quite the contrary really. Besides, Mengsk was never able to find the Disrupter either. I guess you could call that incompetence, I admit that my own judgment was 'then how the hell did you find it while just randomly flying by?'

Quoting from Mengsk's speech, "Unprecedented and unimaginable though they may be, these are the signs of our time" (in regards to the distasteful inclusion of possibly more plot devices).

When you introduce and allow plot devices with a convenient use in a universe such as the ones we know already, it sets a precedent to ask why there aren't convenient plot devices for other things as well... With this warped sense of logic, to me it's kind of strange that Mengsk hasn't found Raynor yet.

Heh. And Mengsk is merciful?

Though I should specify that the Horner missions culminate in a massive blow to the Dominion, stealing the Odin and turning the population against Mengsk.

You got me there

Seriously though, I'm getting confused as to how you think Mengsk perceives Raynor and his rebellion. You seem to be implying that Raynor and his band are not worth Mengsk's attention, yet he spends billions trying to find him. You say Mengsk can potentially assasinate Raynor but won't because it won't affect the rebellion - but the rebellion is ineffectual anyways right? Assasinating Raynor can only help make the rebellion more ineffectual, at least for a time. Sufferring fewer raids is better than what 'normally' happens, right? Isn't that worth something at least to the Dominion itself, if not Mengsk alone?

You've now said that Media Blitz is a massive blow to the Dominion and Mengsk whereas you hinted before it was worthless in the end because Mengsk is still "business as usual". Which is it?

Do you think Mengsk miscalculated on how he perceives Raynor as a threat after Media Blitz or has he always perceived him as a serious threat? I can only assume it's the former because the latter really highlights Mengsk as a nincompoop (Mengsk is both stupid and ineffectual in his actions) or he's pulling a, yet to be revealed, Xanatos Gambit (Yay! another well worn plot path/trope I have no doubt will appear in some form by the time SC2 finishes ).

[FanaticTemplar]

Quoting from Mengsk's speech, "Unprecedented and unimaginable though they may be, these are the signs of our time" (in regards to the distasteful inclusion of possibly more plot devices).

When you introduce and allow plot devices with a convenient use in a universe such as the ones we know already, it sets a precedent to ask why there aren't convenient plot devices for other things as well... With this warped sense of logic, to me it's kind of strange that Mengsk hasn't found Raynor yet.

I'm not well versed in logical fallacies, but I'm pretty sure this is one. The existence of these literary aberrations does not signify that they are now the norm, that they should be expected or assumed to exist. It's like saying that because sometimes people die in car crashes, everybody should be assumed to have died in a car crash until proven otherwise. Those plot devices remain the deviation from the norm, and the norm is assumed until proof of the contrary can be produced.

You got me there

Seriously though, I'm getting confused as to how you think Mengsk perceives Raynor and his rebellion. You seem to be implying that Raynor and his band are not worth Mengsk's attention, yet he spends billions trying to find him. You say Mengsk can potentially assasinate Raynor but won't because it won't affect the rebellion - but the rebellion is ineffectual anyways right? Assasinating Raynor can only help make the rebellion more ineffectual, at least for a time. Sufferring fewer raids is better than what 'normally' happens, right? Isn't that worth something at least to the Dominion itself, if not Mengsk alone?

Everything is relative. The Raiders do warrant Mengsk's attention, but to what extent? The damage done by the Raiders in missions like Liberation Day is marginal if you compare it to the income from acquiring various resources the Dominion competes with the Kel-Morians for, so obviously Mengsk has to divest some of his resources for that. Then there's revolts on Dominion worlds - the Dominion needs to keep forces on those planets to keep the population too terrified to strike out. The Banshee, for instance, was used extensively in this role. While it'd be nice to get Raynor, who instigates such revolts, he keeps on the move, making it arduous and expensive to catch him, with little actual benefit other than the prevention of further troubles. While quelling the revolts on the actual worlds brings those worlds back under Dominion control, providing resources, production and manpower, while the revolutionaries themselves have nowhere to run. Then there's all the mundane stuff like maintaining and developing infrastructure and so forth.

So while Mengsk would love to see Raynor's revolution go down, he's just not a priority. It's the same reason groups like the Kimeran Pirates, or worlds like Dead Man's Rock continue to exist too. They're costly to find and catch, for little actual gain.

You've now said that Media Blitz is a massive blow to the Dominion and Mengsk whereas you hinted before it was worthless in the end because Mengsk is still "business as usual". Which is it?

I doubt I ever said the latter. I said that missions like Liberation Day and The Outlaws were not especially significant, and that these were likely the kind of things Raynor's been doing for the last four years, being the reason why Mengsk isn't especially fixated on him.

I've always held that Media Blitz was the only real blow dealt to Mengsk, which is incidentally why that's the only mission where Mengsk addresses you in person.

Do you think Mengsk miscalculated on how he perceives Raynor as a threat after Media Blitz or has he always perceived him as a serious threat? I can only assume it's the former because the latter really highlights Mengsk as a nincompoop (Mengsk is both stupid and ineffectual in his actions) or he's pulling a, yet to be revealed, Xanatos Gambit (Yay! another well worn plot path/trope I have no doubt will appear in some form by the time SC2 finishes ).

Yes, I think that Media Blitz made Mengsk reevaluate how much attention should be given to Raynor. Although, by then Raynor had his Spectres and the Dominion was getting mauled by the Zerg, so while Raynor did rise in his priority list, he was still far behind the Zerg.

[Turalyon]

I'm not well versed in logical fallacies, but I'm pretty sure this is one. The existence of these literary aberrations does not signify that they are now the norm, that they should be expected or assumed to exist. It's like saying that because sometimes people die in car crashes, everybody should be assumed to have died in a car crash until proven otherwise. Those plot devices remain the deviation from the norm, and the norm is assumed until proof of the contrary can be produced.

I'm well aware of that. It was meant to be a light-hearted jab about plot devices in general. I wouldn't be surprised, however, that some would use this kind of 'reasoning' to justify the artifact's existence as well - that the SC universe is a fictional world so anything can appear/happen (or not appear as the case may be...) that conveniently services the plot.

Then again, it's somewhat troubling that WoL's story hinges so much on a (new) plot device with convenient use because makes it hard to understand what the 'norm' is anymore or worse, hints that this is the norm to have them. Because of this, it's not hard to fathom that things happening and not happening in WoL's universe all seem like contrived plot devices.

Everything is relative.
While it'd be nice to get Raynor, who instigates such revolts, he keeps on the move, making it arduous and expensive to catch him, with little actual benefit other than the prevention of further troubles.
So while Mengsk would love to see Raynor's revolution go down, he's just not a priority.They're costly to find and catch, for little actual gain.

I hear all your saying FT and yet Mengsk still persists in wasting trillions to find these rebels... If he's doing this to scapegoat Raynor, it's costing Mengsk more ways than one too, since he's failing at that when that news lady calls him up on it with his spending on locating Raynor (for a so-called master of propaganda he's doing a cruddy job). I guess it's a compromise then - can't have everything going your way all the time.

I doubt I ever said the latter. I said that missions like Liberation Day and The Outlaws were not especially significant, and that these were likely the kind of things Raynor's been doing for the last four years, being the reason why Mengsk isn't especially fixated on him.

I've always held that Media Blitz was the only real blow dealt to Mengsk, which is incidentally why that's the only mission where Mengsk addresses you in person.

Got my inference wrong, my bad

Yes, I think that Media Blitz made Mengsk reevaluate how much attention should be given to Raynor. Although, by then Raynor had his Spectres and the Dominion was getting mauled by the Zerg, so while Raynor did rise in his priority list, he was still far behind the Zerg.

Something's not right here. If Media Blitz is such a blow to Mengsk, how do you figure that when the Zerg were overruning the Dominion at the time, where Mengsk can just as easily sideswipe Raynor's victory by proclaiming it as a ruse to undermine the defence of the Dominion during the Zerg attack? Could this explain why even though Media Blitz seemed notable - nothing really changed for Mengsk and the Dominion as was stated in that epilogue text? Was the outcome of Media Blitz ultimately meaningless to the Dominion/ Mengsk at large? Does Mengsk even really need to re-evaluate his opinion of Raynor following this event? I find this somewhat disconcerting as it feels like nothing was achieved and that irrelevant stuff just happened.

[Kimera757]

I wonder... how long had this anti-Kerrigan plot been going on?

It's been pointed out repeatedly (mainly in Wings of Liberty, but also in the comic) how well Raynor understands the protoss and the zerg. In the comic, Raynor hid out on zerg-infested planets because he understand the zerg well enough to avoid their attention.

A possible scenario of what had gone on behind-the-scenes in Wings of Liberty:

Arcturus Mengsk works on his hybrid project.

Valerian Mengsk makes contact with Moebius in his search for more temples (Jake Ramsey isn't around anymore). Dr. Narud convinces him he can uninfest Kerrigan, but mainly he's interested in having the artifacts collected for his own purposes.

Arcturus Mengsk found out about Valerian's plot to "rescue" Kerrigan. As a human, she would be a threat because she could easily reveal Arcturus' treachery.

Arcturus then had Tychus Findlay freed and gives him a mission to kill Kerrigan. He would use his old friend Raynor, who is familiar with the zerg and could get him into position.

He gives Findlay to the Moebius Foundation, giving him a convenient "in" with Raynor. Valerian, who probably doesn't suspect his father's hand behind this, is happy. This gives him contact with Raynor, whose knowledge of the protoss will help him collect artifacts.

And Narud benefits too; anytime Raynor defeats protoss or zerg, he passes research (through Stetmann) to Narud. That can't possibly be a bad thing

Things go off the rails for Mengsk for a bit in the Rebellion missions. Arcturus wishes he bought Findlay a more expensive transmitter! Mengsk might have been very upset at underestimating Raynor. He had the Odin stolen from him, his hybrid lab wrecked and his reputation tarnished. Mengsk seems to have closeted himself for days and lost control of the media. Not only can he not actually rely on Findlay to tell him everything (obviously, it's not like he has another spy there) but the threat to stop his organs only works once.

Raynor and Findlay collect the artifacts, then go to Char. Once there, the artifact is activated, giving a massive victory against the zerg. The operation is probably already a success -- at least it would be if you ignored the Rebellion missions. Findlay and Raynor go to Kerrigan. At this point, Findlay tries to kill Kerrigan, only to be dropped by Raynor. Mengsk's endgame didn't work out. An uninfested Kerrigan in charge of the zerg is (politically) worse for Arcturus, since she's more politically powerful and won't scare away reporters either.

[FanaticTemplar]

I'm well aware of that. It was meant to be a light-hearted jab about plot devices in general.

Oh, sorry. Subtleties of intent can be hard to miss on the internet .

I hear all your saying FT and yet Mengsk still persists in wasting trillions to find these rebels... If he's doing this to scapegoat Raynor, it's costing Mengsk more ways than one too, since he's failing at that when that news lady calls him up on it with his spending on locating Raynor (for a so-called master of propaganda he's doing a cruddy job). I guess it's a compromise then - can't have everything going your way all the time.

Yeah, the portrayal of Mengsk's "media control" in Wings of Liberty was abysmal.

Something's not right here. If Media Blitz is such a blow to Mengsk, how do you figure that when the Zerg were overruning the Dominion at the time, where Mengsk can just as easily sideswipe Raynor's victory by proclaiming it as a ruse to undermine the defence of the Dominion during the Zerg attack? Could this explain why even though Media Blitz seemed notable - nothing really changed for Mengsk and the Dominion as was stated in that epilogue text? Was the outcome of Media Blitz ultimately meaningless to the Dominion/ Mengsk at large? Does Mengsk even really need to re-evaluate his opinion of Raynor following this event? I find this somewhat disconcerting as it feels like nothing was achieved and that irrelevant stuff just happened.

I don't know that nothing changed - the end text merely states that Mengsk is still secure on his throne. We are told that following Media Blitz many worlds seceded from the Dominion, and it's going to be a lot of work for Mengsk to reclaim those, especially if he still has to split his attention with the Zerg.

But the larger problem is that disorganised revolutionaries can't really overcome a well equipped military, or at least, it becomes progressively harder as the technology level goes up. A horde of angry peasants with pitchforks and scythes could overcome a smaller number of knights, even though they were better armoured and armed. But these days it would be hard for any kind of popular army to overcome a well-funded military, because state-of-the-art weapons make numbers less relevant. The rebellions in Wings of Liberty can't overcome the Dominion army, unless it is stretched too thin by the extent of the revolts.

[Turalyon]

I don't know that nothing changed - the end text merely states that Mengsk is still secure on his throne. We are told that following Media Blitz many worlds seceded from the Dominion, and it's going to be a lot of work for Mengsk to reclaim those, especially if he still has to split his attention with the Zerg.

But the larger problem is that disorganised revolutionaries can't really overcome a well equipped military, or at least, it becomes progressively harder as the technology level goes up. A horde of angry peasants with pitchforks and scythes could overcome a smaller number of knights, even though they were better armoured and armed. But these days it would be hard for any kind of popular army to overcome a well-funded military, because state-of-the-art weapons make numbers less relevant. The rebellions in Wings of Liberty can't overcome the Dominion army, unless it is stretched too thin by the extent of the revolts.

So, do you think Raynor is now well equipped to handle the Dominion in the future now? You've said the only chance they have against a 'well-equipped military' is if you stretch it thin across many worlds that are in revolt. Media Blitz is a start towards this but I truly wonder whether starting a revolution was a good idea in the beginning when the Zerg were literally knocking at the Dominion's door.

When Media Blitz was going on the Zerg were still on their rampage. Would you honestly think that many worlds would secede from a well-equipped army that is the Dominion and face the Zerg with a band of revolutionaries who hop-scotch the system to rally more supporters?

I'm getting the feeling Raynor is doing something wrong because it's like Raynor is saying "Well, you're free from the tyrannical Mengsk and the Dominion's over-bearing but powerful armies that can protect you better than I can. Not to mention that the Zerg are pretty much killing everything in Dominion territory right now. Never fear though, I'm gonna go leave now and round up some more supporters for our cause so we can come back and (maybe) save you. I promise. Remember, you're free now. The Zerg can kill you but they can't take your freedom away from you. Or whatever, umm, see ya!"

Arcturus Mengsk found out about Valerian's plot to "rescue" Kerrigan. As a human, she would be a threat because she could easily reveal Arcturus' treachery.

Mengsk's endgame didn't work out. An uninfested Kerrigan in charge of the zerg is (politically) worse for Arcturus, since she's more politically powerful and won't scare away reporters either.

I don't buy this at all. Kerrigan is now essentially mortal (although I've always thought she was even after being infested) and vulnerable to assasination. She is less of a threat to Mengsk in my opinion but that doesn't mean Mengsk will still try to take her out. Afterall, she's all the more easier for him to take action against her now.

Turning her human, even if it is genuine, will not be enough to assuage the public at large she's one of the "good guys". You have to remember that the general public of the K sector don't have the information you have about Kerrigan and will most likely still want Kerrigan to burn no matter what she looks like or what she tries to do and that's if the public can even stomach allowing Kerrigan to try redeeming herself.