StarCraft 2 Campaign: Personal thoughts and opinons

[Karass]

Duran is basically Dark Voice. "Other people" creating the Hybrid is Dominion, but they are manipulated by Duran.

Zeratul doesn't who created the Hybrid because he doesn't know who Duran really is, but is sure that "Samir Duran" is fake indentity. It's as simple as that!

[FanaticTemplar]

From a purely "technique of writing" standpoint "Gods, an abomination!" is the part that makes the line weak. It's not a characteristic utterance for Zeratul, it doesn't fit his speech cadence (imagine Yoda saying "Fuck you, Bitch!") and generally breaks the rhythm of the line.

And last of all, it makes Zeratul sound like an old spinster horrified at seeing a copy of "Playboy" on her table.

Eh, I mostly agree, I don't like the delivery of the line either. Then again, from Dark Origins: "By the gods...this can't be happening! [...] All I behold is an abomination." But the voice acting for the old Zeratul made him sound better saying it. He sounded disgusted, rather than horrified.

Up till the introduction of DV, there's no 'other' character that is involved with Hybrids. You can assume there are others involved with Hybrids aside, but the way Zeratul speaks does not imply this. It's much more natural to assume the Hybrid may have come from Duran than it is from someone else.

Not necessarily. Was Zeratul not previously told of Ulrezaj's work on creating Hybrids on Aiur? Zeratul knows that there is more to this affair than Duran alone - Duran himself admits that he is a servant of a far greater power. And we also know this extends beyond Duran alone, having seen Mengsk's experiments in Piercing the Veil. And lest you intend to tell me that Ulrezaj is not part of Wings of Liberty's narrative, neither was Duran.

All this doubt and confusion could've been easily fixed with just the ommission of "Who created this atrocity?"

That's true. Personally I would have preferred 'Why was this atrocity created?' because that's the real question - the one that's answered by the Prophecy arc, and the one I'm wondering about Maar specifically. Seriously, why did anybody send a Hybrid to that Protoss world? I don't understand that move at all. However, even though I think a different presentation would have been better, I don't get why that line attracts the massive confusion it does. While imprecise, it is entirely correct.

Duran is basically Dark Voice. "Other people" creating the Hybrid is Dominion, but they are manipulated by Duran.

Those are both assumptions, and frankly I am quite sceptical of the first in particular. Having just replayed Dark Origins I find it quite unlikely that Duran and the Dark Voice are the same entity.

[Turalyon]

Not necessarily. Was Zeratul not previously told of Ulrezaj's work on creating Hybrids on Aiur? Zeratul knows that there is more to this affair than Duran alone - Duran himself admits that he is a servant of a far greater power. And we also know this extends beyond Duran alone, having seen Mengsk's experiments in Piercing the Veil. And lest you intend to tell me that Ulrezaj is not part of Wings of Liberty's narrative, neither was Duran.

Hmmm. I'm not too knowledgeable about all this expanded universe stuff, novels and the like. It's kind of unfair to write a story that needs to rely on this material to fully understand or justify something in the game (that Zeratul's line is actually about him thinking or referring to someone, Ulrezaj or whomever else, other than Duran who can create Hybrids) in my opinion.

I don't know much about Ulrezaj, but does he boast the ability to live for millenia and have the ability to seed "many, many" worlds with Hybrids like Duran can? As I said earlier, the Duran character was set-up as the preeminent authority regarding the creation of hybrids to both the audience and Zeratul and we are given no indications that say otherwise in these games or their manuals.

Besides, what does Zeratul have to gain from it's asking? It doesn't really matter who created this particular Hybrid, does it?

Zeratul: Oh, so it appears that some other two-bit baddy, who I'll name Fred cos I really don't know who it is, that created this abomination.... Oh well, now that I (half)know, I can sleep easier now.

I'm thinking that Zeratul's question was supposed to be about "why" it was created, as you stated, or "what kind of person/thing/creature would make such a thing" rather than wanting to know "who".

[Eivind]

If he said that, then it would just confuse people and Jim at the same time, because Jim doesn't know anything about duran (and zeratul barely even knows him either).

How would you be confused by the mention of Duran? What Jim would feel is irrelevant, because Zeratul hadn't planned to tell Jim yet. It's Zeratul speaking to himself.

and it would take a while to explain him, which would take us out of the scene that's happening right now (which is the fact that there's a hyprid on the planet taking the powers from protoss elders).

Why explain him? Just mention him, I say.

Seriously, why did anybody send a Hybrid to that Protoss world? I don't understand that move at all.

"This knowledge is forbidden", he says. He is sent there to guard the preservers from anyone gaining access to them.

Eivind you do realize that there is an edit button to your posts right? Maybe you should consider using it instead of constantly double and triple posting.

Yeah, I should.

[FanaticTemplar]

Hmmm. I'm not too knowledgeable about all this expanded universe stuff, novels and the like. It's kind of unfair to write a story that needs to rely on this material to fully understand or justify something in the game (that Zeratul's line is actually about him thinking or referring to someone, Ulrezaj or whomever else, other than Duran who can create Hybrids) in my opinion.

Except that in this case Duran himself is outside material, and the only way you can possibly interpret Zeratul's comment in a confusing way relies on that material. Again, Duran has no involvement in Wings of Liberty, the only reason to mention him here would be to cater to fans who have expanded knowledge of the setting, which by your own admission would be unfair.

Besides, what does Zeratul have to gain from it's asking? It doesn't really matter who created this particular Hybrid, does it?

No, and it serves little purpose. It's all part of this annoying habit Zeratul's picked up of talking to himself all the time. Started back in Dark Origins as a way to tell us what was in those Stasis Cells and other junk "Terrans are having difficulty employing Pylons" and what not, but it got really ridiculous in Wings of Liberty. Now he talks to himself about what he's about to do in a few seconds, or about what he has the ability to do, and all sorts of statements of the obvious. To think that he had almost no important lines at all before Brood War and that he was set up to be this aloof secretive mystic... gah.

Still doesn't mean the line is incoherent though.

"This knowledge is forbidden", he says. He is sent there to guard the preservers from anyone gaining access to them.

Wait, does that mean that the Dark Voice had agents on Ulaan who knew of the prophecy? Who would that be? Karass? Or did he suddenly send a Hybrid now, on the off chance that someone would come to the Preservers for translation in the timeframe between obtaining awakened Hybrids and some Templar high-up on Shakuras realising that they haven't had contact with anyone on this planet for a while and sending a force to investigate? That's awfully convenient timing. Besides, aren't there scholars elsewhere who can translate Xel'Naga script? I'm pretty sure the entire Shelak Tribe was dedicated to this sort of thing.

[Turalyon]

Except that in this case Duran himself is outside material, and the only way you can possibly interpret Zeratul's comment in a confusing way relies on that material. Again, Duran has no involvement in Wings of Liberty, the only reason to mention him here would be to cater to fans who have expanded knowledge of the setting, which by your own admission would be unfair.

You cannot consider Duran as "outside" material just because he is not part of WoL (which is again debatable seeing that some people think Narud is Duran. I don't want to go there...) or because his real nature could've been missed because his link to the Hybrids was in a secret mission. Duran is more "inside" material than your example of Ulrezaj for instance, who was only first mentioned in those custom made campaigns (Enslavers) and which were then retroactively made canon and expanded. Also, there is a precedent for Duran's introduction into WoL even if he was not actually seen or referred to since BW; the SC2 manual name-checks him, his role with hybrids and that Zeratul knows about him. Duran is not 'outside' material in this sense.

Besides, the whole conceit of making WoL and perhaps SC2 in its entirety, is due to this secret mission introducing Hybrids in BW in the first place (which I'm kind of starting to regret) and the continuation of what this means. Zeratul's search for the prophecy would not have started without his fateful encounter with Duran. Duran may not be relevant to Raynor/WoL's story but this is actually beside the point because we are looking at Zeratul's memories in these missions. You'd think he'd remember Duran's threat of the Hybrids waking when he then sees one actually awake! Heck, at least an internal monologue implying his recognition of Hybrids would've sufficed and been much better than his implication of seeing a Hybrid as a completely new development that he has no knowledge about!

To think that he had almost no important lines at all before Brood War and that he was set up to be this aloof secretive mystic... gah.

Yeah, his aura and mystique kind of waned a bit in BW as you got to know more about him. You can't really be an aloof, secretive mystic when you're being pushed into the limelight. You just get revealed as a crotchety old man who rambles nonsense...

That's awfully convenient timing.

Get used to it, FT. This is the one thing that seems to be an ongoing and consistent theme about Sc2.

[FanaticTemplar]

You cannot consider Duran as "outside" material just because he is not part of WoL

Certainly I can. That' is in fact the very definition of the term, I believe. The very fact is that mentioning Duran would have only signified something to people who have played Dark Origins or otherwise know of its events through material other than Wings of Liberty itself, while adding absolutely nothing to the story, plot, world and so forth. I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with it, but I don't understand how people can have a problem with not including it.

[Turalyon]

Certainly I can. That' is in fact the very definition of the term, I believe. The very fact is that mentioning Duran would have only signified something to people who have played Dark Origins or otherwise know of its events through material other than Wings of Liberty itself, while adding absolutely nothing to the story, plot, world and so forth. I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with it, but I don't understand how people can have a problem with not including it.

Under your definition, the Hybrids themselves should not be included in WoL as well since they are considered outside material (a nod to Dark Origins), and do not really contribute anything meaningful in the story that is WoL. You may argue that they are important in showing Raynor the reason why he has to save Kerrigan. This is a wrong assumption because you can skip these missions and still end with the same result. Also, the Hybrids are not meaningful in themselves because the actual antagonist that justifies Kerrigan's saving is the DV.

Here's a hypothetical for you: How do you account for a complete SC neophyte who, upon reading the SC2 manual to brush up on events and sees Duran being mentioned and what he does with Hybrids, plays the game and hears Zeratul say, "Who created this atrocity?" and then think, "Well, how about Duran?" expecting it to be explored but never is?

Anyway, I think we're getting derailed talking about whether or not Duran should be mentioned in WoL. That is not the point of what the detractors arguments are. I don't think the problem people have is that Zeratul did not mention Duran, it's rather that his line heavily implies that he knows nothing about Hybrids in general. The reason why people say that "Zeratul should have acknowledged Duran" is because to them it's one way to show that Zeratul recognises the existence of Hybrids from his past experiences as well as dovetailing into the origin of their discovery by him. In effect, this will be will be a nod to past events and show continuity to the fans and for the neophytes, it will show them that there is something deeper going on that they do not understand (which they would if they didn't start playing with the sequel first!) and that it doesn't sound like they're pulling things out of their arses.

[Karass]

BTW, saying that Duran isn't part of WoL is a gross misstatement, because he is mentioned explicitly in the manual. It's like saying that Doran Routhe, UPL, Long Sleep, Great Purification and Khas are not part of SC1 storyline, because there is no single mention of them in the game itself.

[Eivind]

Anyway, I think we're getting derailed talking about whether or not Duran should be mentioned in WoL. That is not the point of what the detractors arguments are. I don't think the problem people have is that Zeratul did not mention Duran, it's rather that his line heavily implies that he knows nothing about Hybrids in general. The reason why people say that "Zeratul should have acknowledged Duran" is because to them it's one way to show that Zeratul recognises the existence of Hybrids from his past experiences as well as dovetailing into the origin of their discovery by him. In effect, this will be will be a nod to past events and show continuity to the fans and for the neophytes, it will show them that there is something deeper going on that they do not understand (which they would if they didn't start playing with the sequel first!) and that it doesn't sound like they're pulling things out of their arses.

Good point in including the hybrids. Not only does Zeratul seems to have forgotten Duran, he seems to have forgotten them as well. He seems genuinely surprised that something like Maar exists.