Terrans weilding Protoss technology?

[Kimera757]

People are getting a bit angry and confused in this thread.

Project Gestalt started some time in 2502. The story itself took place in 2503, more than one year after the project's creation. I said two years so I wouldn't exaggerate how quickly you can learn to use a psi-blade.

Zero learned to use the psi-blade sometime during that period. It's possible it took him a very short period of time to use it.

The psi-blade seems to be pretty good at penetrating armor, so it's a smarter move to use it than trying to snipe a marauder with a very thick helmet, at least in any situation where you can get close. (The best way to do that is with stealth. Charging the guy with slowing grenades is not a good idea if he can see you.)

Zero was shown using the psi-blade in many close-up situations, sometimes stealthy and sometimes not. Given how badass he was, it's doubtful he really needed to use stealth.

[newcomplex]

Why wouldn't it become part of the martial arts training? It took him 2 years to learn it, that doesn't mean he didn't learn it as a part of his training.

Do I seriously need to explain to you why recently discovered protoss technology wouldn't be taught to a terran ghost in martial arts training?

Yes, that's not the point though. The point is that YOU have no basis to back up your claim that a fusion cutter is just as strong as a psi blade? Where's your evidence? To compare a fusion cutter to a made up weapon that can cut a Hydralisks head off in 1 easy slice?



When you make a claim, back it up. Explain exactly how a rifle would be just as effective when A) It's in close combat B) A rifle gets in the way of aerobics and C) A marauder uses thick thick armour? Please do enlighten me on how a rifle is just as effective as a psi blade.

First of all, I'm not saying that a fusion cutter is anywhere the same power as a psi-blade. Slashing a marine with a fusion cutter would probably scar his armor badly, while a psi-blade would literally cut it in two.

I didn't say its just as effective, im saying that its superfluous. I'm saying that ghosts do not have trouble killing things when they stealth right behind them. A psi-blade is excessive.

Second
you discount my ideas saying you have no conclusive proof, then you make your own idea with no conclusive proof.

Guess what. We used the same thing. Its called logic. A ghost does not need to cut a marine in twain, taking advantage of a vulnerable part in his suit would be far easier. The very fact that a ghost has no melee weapon despite the fact im sure something that could kill a armored unit efficiently in melee combat could be developed is proof enough that his standard weapons are fine for close quarters combat.

The point of psi blades? I'm sorry, but uh what point is this? As far as I can tell, the point of psi blades is for killing stuff. Dark Templars use psi blades, why shouldn't Ghosts? Now, I agree that giving every single ghost a psi blade is not cost effective, but I certainly don't see what the problem is with giving good ghosts psi blades. It merely enhances their lethality.

Yeah, because Dark Templars aren't stealth units.

Dark templars are not comparable to ghosts. Gameplay wise they fulfill similar roles, but in lore, they are very different.

First of all, your suggesting that a ghost carries both a psi-blade and a gun. This is incredibly hard to do!. The psi projectors are VERY big, if you've seen the cinematics. Undoubtedly they are heavy too. On top of that, ghosts need to carry around moebius reactors, which seem like rather heavy backpacks, and many other stuff.

Look at the size of those things.
http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/File...t_SC1_Art1.jpg

The alternative is to give ghosts a much more limited sidearm then the already gigantic canister rifle. I'm pretty sure ghosts would do 10x better with the rifle.

Second, the dark templar is vastly more powerful psionically then a ghost. A dark templar can cloak indefintely with nothing more then the power of its mind. A ghost can cloak..well...no mention of how long the power lasts but I doubt its more then 30 minutes to a hour. A dark templar is much more powerful then a ghost. The most powerful ghosts would probably be equal to a mediocre dark templar.

Third, Dark templars are not assassins. They are not black-ops. They are not snipers. They are warriors. DT's use their cloaking to augment their combat and to scout. Their cloaking serves to defend them by making the enemies attacks miss, as they cannot aim correctly. But a dark templar is just as much designed to run into a swatch of zergling and fight to the death as much as a zealot. This is not a ghost's role. In lore, their has been not a single mention of dark templars acting anything other then illusive, evasive warriors. They fight alongside the zealots, not like ghosts, who aid the front line from the shadows

Ghosts are employed by the goverment mainly to act as black-op squads doing assassinations, spy, mental warfare, infiltrations, and battlefield snipers. The last thing a ghost is a "warrior"

Ghosts can do many things, and I'm fairly certain going against Zerg creatures and other people is certainly somewhere in his training. He has to know how to deal with Zerg creatures if he runs into them, and a gun certainly won't be as useful as a psi blade in close quarter.

Ghosts are not zealots. Ghosts are not superman. Ghosts are not stupid. Their is 0 reason why a ghost would be sword range of a zerg uncloaked, and not going to die in 5 seconds. If zerg ambush a ghost, the ghost would cloak. If their was detection, the ghost would be screwed unless their was like, one hydra or one zergling. In which case, why was their detection in the first place.

The only time the psi blade would actually useful is if you are ambushed by a low (2-4) zerg basic units with detection nearby. If a ghost is in this situation, it isn't part of the plan. It means he fucked up.

Guess what? If your glass breaks, you're screwed as well. And it most definitely is NOT bullet proof. Also, where as I have facts backing up my claim you don't. Where's your evidence that cameras limit FOV a lot? Modern day cameras? They can place microscopic cameras on different areas of the goliath to have an ever wider range of view than a normal glass shield. They can even place it so that the goliath pilot can see behind the goliath, something that glass certainly doesn't allow.

The very fact that golaiths have glass instead of cameras disproves it. We don't know why its more effective, but they do have glass :/. That might be illogical but thats the lore. You can't argue with that. I was just trying to justify why it may be.

Maybe they have superstrong bulletproof glass. Who knows.

[Pandonetho]

Do I seriously need to explain to you why recently discovered protoss technology wouldn't be taught to a terran ghost in martial arts training?

Please do.

First of all, I'm not saying that a fusion cutter is anywhere the same power as a psi-blade. Slashing a marine with a fusion cutter would probably scar his armor badly, while a psi-blade would literally cut it in two.

I didn't say its just as effective, im saying that its superfluous. I'm saying that ghosts do not have trouble killing things when they stealth right behind them. A psi-blade is excessive.

Yes, and they can't always be stealthed. They do run into situations where they have to actually fight, and not rely on stealth.

Guess what. We used the same thing. Its called logic. A ghost does not need to cut a marine in twain, taking advantage of a vulnerable part in his suit would be far easier. The very fact that a ghost has no melee weapon despite the fact im sure something that could kill a armored unit efficiently in melee combat could be developed is proof enough that his standard weapons are fine for close quarters combat.

So you're going to use "they don't have it so their must be some magical reason why their standard weapons are fine" as an argument? That's laughable. Let me guess, you also think that siege tanks wielding nothing but a cannon is effective right? Sure, they don't need to put on any kind of anti infantry turret, let's just blast a marine with an entire shell.

Dark templars are not comparable to ghosts. Gameplay wise they fulfill similar roles, but in lore, they are very different.

Yes I know they're different in lore, but if you think they don't use their stealth as a part of assassination or stealth attacks then you're sadly mistaken. Ghosts can fight invisibly just like Dark Tempalrs do, the notion that a DT might be better in CQB does not make the fact that a ghost can fight moot.

First of all, your suggesting that a ghost carries both a psi-blade and a gun. This is incredibly hard to do!. The psi projectors are VERY big, if you've seen the cinematics. Undoubtedly they are heavy too. On top of that, ghosts need to carry around moebius reactors, which seem like rather heavy backpacks, and many other stuff.

And hey guess what? If you've read Project Gestalt Zero you'll know that he wields a perfectly sized psi blade with ease. Point moot.

Ghosts are employed by the goverment mainly to act as black-op squads doing assassinations, spy, mental warfare, infiltrations, and battlefield snipers. The last thing a ghost is a "warrior"

They're not warriors definitely, but they certainly know how to fight.

Ghosts are not zealots. Ghosts are not superman. Ghosts are not stupid. Their is 0 reason why a ghost would be sword range of a zerg uncloaked, and not going to die in 5 seconds. If zerg ambush a ghost, the ghost would cloak. If their was detection, the ghost would be screwed unless their was like, one hydra or one zergling. In which case, why was their detection in the first place.

More assumptions? Where is your basis for your assumption that Ghosts can't take on more than 2-4 Zerg units at a time? Stop making things up, we've already seen Ghosts like Gestalt Zero fighting a Hydralisk with nothing but a psi blade and killing it with ease.

The only time the psi blade would actually useful is if you are ambushed by a low (2-4) zerg basic units with detection nearby. If a ghost is in this situation, it isn't part of the plan. It means he fucked up.

Yes, and guess what? Fucking up can happen, and would you rather have a psi blade or no melee weapon at all?

The very fact that golaiths have glass instead of cameras disproves it. We don't know why its more effective, but they do have glass :/. That might be illogical but thats the lore. You can't argue with that. I was just trying to justify why it may be.

This isn't even an argument. Just because it's in the lore doesn't mean it's better. If you're honestly going to go by the argument you'd better be ready to defend why the Thor is great and the Viking is great. "It's in teh lore!"

Maybe they have superstrong bulletproof glass. Who knows.

If you bothered to read, Kimera has already stated that the glass isn't bullet proof.

Your whole point is that equipping Ghosts with psi blades is not cost effective. Well guess what? Thors aren't cost effective, neither are Vikings because in real life they wouldn't even work properly. Starcraft is not real life, it's called the rule of cool, learn to live with it.

[newcomplex]

Please do.



Yes, and they can't always be stealthed. They do run into situations where they have to actually fight, and not rely on stealth.



So you're going to use "they don't have it so their must be some magical reason why their standard weapons are fine" as an argument? That's laughable. Let me guess, you also think that siege tanks wielding nothing but a cannon is effective right? Sure, they don't need to put on any kind of anti infantry turret, let's just blast a marine with an entire shell.



Yes I know they're different in lore, but if you think they don't use their stealth as a part of assassination or stealth attacks then you're sadly mistaken. Ghosts can fight invisibly just like Dark Tempalrs do, the notion that a DT might be better in CQB does not make the fact that a ghost can fight moot.



And hey guess what? If you've read Project Gestalt Zero you'll know that he wields a perfectly sized psi blade with ease. Point moot.



They're not warriors definitely, but they certainly know how to fight.



More assumptions? Where is your basis for your assumption that Ghosts can't take on more than 2-4 Zerg units at a time? Stop making things up, we've already seen Ghosts like Gestalt Zero fighting a Hydralisk with nothing but a psi blade and killing it with ease.



Yes, and guess what? Fucking up can happen, and would you rather have a psi blade or no melee weapon at all?



This isn't even an argument. Just because it's in the lore doesn't mean it's better. If you're honestly going to go by the argument you'd better be ready to defend why the Thor is great and the Viking is great. "It's in teh lore!"



If you bothered to read, Kimera has already stated that the glass isn't bullet proof.

Your whole point is that equipping Ghosts with psi blades is not cost effective. Well guess what? Thors aren't cost effective, neither are Vikings because in real life they wouldn't even work properly. Starcraft is not real life, it's called the rule of cool, learn to live with it.

You realize how pathetic this argument is right? Ghosts aren't taught how to use psi-blades because only one terran actually managed to use one. Stop being obtuse.

Giving ghosts psi-blades would have to fit into one of the two categories.

a) Improving on an existing technology
b) Add additional functionality that ghosts are sorely lacking.

I do not see what "psi-blade" fits in all this. It makes zero sense. Ghosts do fine killing targets in melee range. Ghosts do not need to kill hydralisks at melee range. It isn't what they do.

In regards to fucking up, yes fucking up happens, but if you fuck up and your face to face with 8 hydalisks, your dead, and the people equipping you shouldn't be thinking of ways to counter all the way you fuck up. Thats not how an army is run. We should give ghosts jetpacks too. In case they fuck up. I could make an equally convincing arguement on how jetpacks would be viable for ghost.

I could continue argue on about how ghosts with psi-blades make no sense, how makes no sense to give a special ops/stealth force a blade that is prone to malfunction (see:fenix cinematic), glows intensely, and does nothing a silenced pistole cannot.

But that would be entirely pointless. Lore is malleable, and you'll always see it your way. I can't prove how ghosts shouldn't use psi-blades in SC because SC is a fictional universe.

Lore is a tool to develop a game. I could pull something right out of my ass about how thors are viable

see below

Thors have battlecruiser class weapon systems that are impossible to stabalize in smaller platforms. Designed for terrestial sieges where long term air-bombardment is unavailable. Even the largest tanks cannot withstand the shock of the armaments. Any larger, and the vehicle would be made completely unusable on uneven terrain. The solution was to an elevated, massive walker-class weapons platform, that allowed it to easily and stability deliver its munitions while remaining easily mobile,

I got that in 20 seconds.

The only thing you cannot do in lore is contradict, and Psi-blades on ghosts are just contradictions, and make the game seem really dumb. Ghosts have always struck me as "elite special ops forces", not "ninjas with lightsabers".

Your argueing that according to "lore" ghosts should have psi-blades. And I'm argueing the opposite. In the end, it doesn't matter. What does matter is that it contradicts the established theme for ghosts, and is stupid.

Though it seems we have gone terribly off topic :/

[Pandonetho]

Sorry but that explanation blows. Making a walker is purely not feasible. There's way too many moving parts, something could snap under all the weight it's already carrying.
It's also just a bad design period.

Second, Ghosts can be analogous to ninjas actually, they're stealth units that do assassinations. That's what ninjas do. Them having psi blades is not a contradiction.

Third, lore has contradictions all the time, that's what retcons are for. It's your opinion maybe that ghosts using psi blades make the game seem really dumb, it's a fact that Ghosts in the game don't even have psi blades so your point is completely m00t anyway. Ghosts in the lore using psi blades is perfectly fine the way I see it.

You like to contradict yourself, do you think that psi blades are something that is easy to use? No? You said it yourself it takes a long time to learn, only the elite would be able to wield them effectively. So yes, an elite unit wielding something like a psi blade makes sense and you really can't disprove that.

Your ONLY argument that is somewhat legitimate but still terrible anyway is that it's not cost effective. Well, no one said anything about equipping all ghosts with psi blades, only the really good ones. That is what I would invest in. Your second argument is that it makes no sense. Bull.

[newcomplex]

Sorry but that explanation blows. Making a walker is purely not feasible. There's way too many moving parts, something could snap under all the weight it's already carrying.
It's also just a bad design period.

Second, Ghosts can be analogous to ninjas actually, they're stealth units that do assassinations. That's what ninjas do. Them having psi blades is not a contradiction.

Third, lore has contradictions all the time, that's what retcons are for. It's your opinion maybe that ghosts using psi blades make the game seem really dumb, it's a fact that Ghosts in the game don't even have psi blades so your point is completely m00t anyway. Ghosts in the lore using psi blades is perfectly fine the way I see it.

You like to contradict yourself, do you think that psi blades are something that is easy to use? No? You said it yourself it takes a long time to learn, only the elite would be able to wield them effectively. So yes, an elite unit wielding something like a psi blade makes sense and you really can't disprove that.

Your ONLY argument that is somewhat legitimate but still terrible anyway is that it's not cost effective. Well, no one said anything about equipping all ghosts with psi blades, only the really good ones. That is what I would invest in. Your second argument is that it makes no sense. Bull.

Present day hydraulics systems needed to make a walker has too many moving parts. They could have easily used their highly developed nano-tech along with whatever other advances they made over 500 years to create a working mech.

bullshit? Isn't that like exactly what you said about the cameras?

See how dumb this is?

this isn't science this is a game. I could point out to you how a not a single ghost assassination mentioned in lore has been done in anyway that would make using a goddam 1 meter psi-blade efficient, from nova's assassinations to mengk's families assassination, to the ghost sent to kill the alien cultists's assassinations. Assassinations don't work like that anymore, this isn't feudal japan.

lol. w/e. You think ghosts should get lightsabers, I think that's stupid. I think the conversation should end when this becomes our thesis

[Norfindel]

Don't take lore so seriously, they invoked the "rule of cool" more than it's advisable, lately...

[Pandonetho]

bullshit? Isn't that like exactly what you said about the cameras?

Except cameras are actually feasible, whereas sniping a goliath pilot is even more feasible which thus leads us to the conclusion that having a giant glass shield that isn't bullet proof is a bad idea.

this isn't science this is a game. I could point out to you how a not a single ghost assassination mentioned in lore has been done in anyway that would make using a goddam 1 meter psi-blade efficient, from nova's assassinations to mengk's families assassination, to the ghost sent to kill the alien cultists's assassinations. Assassinations don't work like that anymore, this isn't feudal japan.

Psi blades aren't a meter long, you're just making things up again. You're also talking about cost effectiveness or things that don't make sense, then you just point out that it's a game. Seems like you're the one having problems with organizing your own argument. I could also point out to you that you decided to ignore the very story that shows the psi blade being used effectively.

[newcomplex]

Except cameras are actually feasible, whereas sniping a goliath pilot is even more feasible which thus leads us to the conclusion that having a giant glass shield that isn't bullet proof is a bad idea.



Psi blades aren't a meter long, you're just making things up again. You're also talking about cost effectiveness or things that don't make sense, then you just point out that it's a game. Seems like you're the one having problems with organizing your own argument. I could also point out to you that you decided to ignore the very story that shows the psi blade being used effectively.

Gestalt, if anything, proves my point. They had to splice protoss dna onto a ghost just for him to be able to USE psi-blades. And he was, as the comic has only 180% the power of a normal ghost. Splicing genes from an alien race for a 80% performance boost? um ok.

And I was exaggerating about the 1 meter thing -_-.

Either way lore is a means to an end. And in the end, psi-blades on ghosts make no sense. You've still yet to provide anything substantial on why giving special op teams, ninjas, or any of the things you might think a ghost is lightsabers is anything resembling efficient. Which is why having it is is dumb.

And who said cameras are feasible? You?

[Pandonetho]

Gestalt, if anything, proves my point. They had to splice protoss dna onto a ghost just for him to be able to USE psi-blades. And he was, as the comic has only 180% the power of a normal ghost. Splicing genes from an alien race for a 80% performance boost? um ok.

Why not? Dr. Burgess had plans to mass produce Project Gestalt Zero. Also, Gestalt Zero completed every single mission he's ever taken on with 100% success. Seems like a pretty good deal to me.

Either way lore is a means to an end. And in the end, psi-blades on ghosts make no sense. You've still yet to provide anything substantial on why giving special op teams, ninjas, or any of the things you might think a ghost is lightsabers is anything resembling efficient. Which is why having it is is dumb.

If you're going to claim something doesn't make sense, you have to prove it. I have proof of the manga itself that he Gestalt Zero was a concept that was developed for MASS PRODUCTION. I have proof that he killed 2 Hydralisks with no armour, just a psi blade. You have no proof of anything. All you're whining is "it doesn't make sense! it doesn't make sense!" first of all it's the year 2500 in a fictitious universe, second of all, you still haven't provided a reason for why it doesn't make sense besides claiming that the psi blade looks like a lightsaber which it doesn't.

you might think a ghost is lightsabers is anything resembling efficient. Which is why having it is is dumb.

I already have the comic showing Gestalt Zero owning many things with his psi blade, it's you who's making stupid claims. It's just your personal distaste for the idea, you have no evidence to suggest why it doesn't make sense. Ghosts are not modern day assassins, they don't follow the same rules.

And who said cameras are feasible? You?

Cameras are feasible because they're microscopic and provide the viewer with a very wide range of vision depending on how many cameras are placed around the goliath rather than the solid glass shielding which you still have yet to prove why it is better than cameras besides pointing out that "goliaths use it so therefore it's better."

I've already said why the glass shielding isn't better than cameras, you on the other hand just say "what if cameras break, what if cameras break!?"

What if the legs on the goliath break? He's still screwed, or are you going to say the "goliath uses legs instead of tracts so obviously legs are better" logical fallacy?

Your argument fails just admit it.

First you say it's not cost effective, I agree that it's not cost effective to equip all ghosts with psi blades, only the good ones or in fact only the ones that may be possible to wield it (ghosts who are enhanced by the Protoss).

You continue to say that you don't think Ghosts will suck with psi blades and I quote verbatim.

I'm not saying that ghosts would suck with psi-blades

And yes, as we've seen Gestalt Zero is VERY effective with the psi blade.

Your argument then consists of whining that it doesn't make sense because a rifle would be just as good. Do you honestly think guns are the solution to everything? Really?

You say that yes a psi blade would be very effective against a Marauder but a rifle would too (actually it wouldn't unless it's at long range) then you say it doesn't make sense to give a ghost a psi blade. I quote verbatim again.

And finally, if a ghost confronts a marauder in an installation, yes a psi-blade would be a very effective weapon. So would a rifle. Its simply not effective to give ghosts psi-blades.

Yes maybe if you read your own post you would see how ridiculous it sounds. "Psi blades are good, so is a rifle, psi blades don't make sense" and then fail to provide evidence.

Your other arguments consist of the Ghost screwing up and that means he's dead when you provide no evidence for why he'd be dead instead you just increase the number of opponents that he faces and you give him a zero percent chance to fight back without including any factors. "Oh he's dead cuz he's gonna be fighting 8 hydralisks" blah blah blah. Sorry but if you're going to make claims like that you'd better back it up with evidence. Show me evidence that a ghost of Gestalt Zero's caliber would lose to 8 hydralisks. He already fought 2 with just a psi blade and killed them easily.

I don't really care what you think, giving special ops units only one weapon (a rifle) is not a good idea. Why do you think the Green Beret use a shovel and the Spetsnaz use a ballistic knife? Do you think it doesn't make sense to give them melee weapons either? Give me a break.