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Thread: Why so few Infestors in top ZvP ?

  1. #11
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    Default Re: Why so few Infestors in top ZvP ?

    Actually was just going to post a topic on this, but it was more in line with how to deal with mass infestors as I'm a protoss player :P.

    Had a very interesting game whereby a player used mass infestors against me which proved extremely effective vs my zealot/stalker/templer army. He had so many and I basically I had a very hard time choosing between storming and feedback. Plus he would often remain out of range of my templer. So fungal will eat into my army's HP and everytime I stormed, his roaches would just burrow and regenerate. By the time he finally engaged me, most of my units were in the red while his were all full health.

    So yes, mass infestors are good vs protoss. I guess I could have forced him to use gas in otherways like building air, or if I had gone colossi and used that range advantage instead of depending on slow ass templers, I would have fared better.

    Incidentally, anyone with tips as to how to take out those infestors or at least deter him from getting more? Fungals stopped my DTs and infestors are so much faster than my templer.... plus energy is precious for storm and I'm persistantly short of gas.

  2. #12

    Default Re: Why so few Infestors in top ZvP ?

    I think a good way for Protoss to transition out of gateway/robo countering is to minimize gate production and got 2x or 3x stargate void rays and COlossus+zealots and a few sentries, and/or 1-2 HTs for feedback or storm. This would be an extremely lategame army and would be a good transition once you see him going mass infestors which is pretty gas heavy. Even if he fungals the Voids, you still have zealot/Colossi and HT to deal with the roaches, not to mention voids themselves.

    If he counters with infestor/roach/hydra in the next wave, just use good forcefielding and a couple of feedback while conserving your colossus and Voidray numbers as much as you can while growing your army.

    As you said, that would force him to get more corruptors which would be an awkward transition, and Colossi and VRs have a lot of HP, so if the hydras didnt do enough damage, you can just use the army to kill expos and shunt the gas production of the zerg, and win by starving him out and even transitioning tech back into a gateway-heavy mix once his infestor numbers fall and still have a balanced number of void/COlossus/Zeal/Ht/Stalker + 1 to 2 sentries.

    It would come down to properly scouting the unit composition and building your counter-tech accordingly and using positioning to your advantage as much as possible to minimize the effects of Fungal growths. Also, using voids in a couple of groups could be desirable to spread the number of fungals needed to immobilize them all.

    It is very tactical at this point, but I think once you're on 3 bases, and thus 6 gases, you can easily have the multiple tech trees ready while using your army to stall. the only way you could lose is if you lose your base or probes, or you lose important units too freely.

  3. #13

    Default Re: Why so few Infestors in top ZvP ?

    @Masakari
    From what you say he basically kept using infestors to hold you back while he had like 3-4bases i guess since you said a lot of infestors. If you have DTs then you can always harass with them. Force him to make more overseers. Plus if he has a lot of roaches who regen anyways might as well just feedback then instead of storm. Feedback has a chance to kill the infestor in one hit. 1 storm can't kill any infestors even if they stay in the storm radius for the full duration.

    Basically he just used a certain number of infestors to constantly FG as he expanded/teched/got a bigger army. And you couldn't do much to stop the FG. No high ground?? Perhaps better scouting so he can't keep doing that to you. It's the same idea with the 4 sentry infinite forcefield thing. You can just keep delaying and blocking your enemy as you expand/tech/get a larger army. Then you can choose the best time to attack. So he sort of outplayed you. If it wasn't due to him having an early economy advantage then problem might be army placement and scouting.

    Plus saying colossi fares better is the kind of thinking like "Right now I really wish that I have colossi instead of HTs." You made the build order decision prior to the game. You chose to go HTs for a reason. If you go into that sort of mindset of "In that game I wish I had..." then you'll end up trying to tech to everything in the next game. Not particularly safe doing that.:P
    Last edited by JackhammerIV; 01-02-2011 at 08:43 PM.

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  4. #14
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    Default Re: Why so few Infestors in top ZvP ?

    Teching everything is kind of my strategy vs terran... works quite well actually with templer, colossi and phoenix's :P.

    But yeah, I was kind of referring more to being able to do a tech switch when I encountered that army... just that the constant pressure made it near impossible to spend the cash/gas.

    He was on 2 bases... my DT's took out his 3rd base 3 times. He didn't bother with an overlord though. Just fungal and killed my DTs.

    Regarding feedback, my HT's can't reach in time.... as they slowly float over, the infestors just fungal my front and run off. And if I don't storm, the roaches will just steam roll my army.... when I storm, they withdraw, but fungals negate any advantage I may gain from doing so.

    Base wise, he was never significantly ahead of me. In fact, I would say he expanded rather poorly for a zerg. I've faced 5 base zerg with 3 base toss and come out on top (basically my saturation was better). This was pretty much a 2 base fight on both sides with him having a 3rd for short periods... he barely covered his cost for the 3rd. Roaches are dirt cheap and not that gas intensive, so it is very possible to run off 2 bases. I had a significant amount of templer out myself, just that they were not proving to be very cost effective. Had high ground advantage near my base, where I put a few templer, but I lose this advantage once I move out to secure my 3rd.

    So yeah, a tech switch on my part probably would have helped. Either colossi or voids would have meant him having to go corruptor/hydra.... which means less gas for infestors.

  5. #15

    Default Re: Why so few Infestors in top ZvP ?

    Well, the way that I see it, there is a chance that you didnt even have to tech switch to win. You could have used your current units in different ways to punish him for his tech choice. Instead of sending in DT's all at once to kill his third, separate them out and make him use more infestors (or get overseers) to kill the same amount of things. Or, you could have gotten a robo and gotten some warp prisms and did some storm drops. He had NO anti air besides infestors but every time you caused him to use his energy you make his army that much weaker. Not to mention if he fungal'd the warp prism you could have just dropped some HT from your payload and stormed his workers anyway(not sure if you could change it into warp mode and just warp in, but since spells that don't affect movement can still be cast I am not sure why you couldn't phase). And even if all of that failed you could have just turned your templar into archons which are VERY good versus any ground zerg units. Also note that there is not any unit besides the probe that a fungal growth can damage past the shields. It only does 36 damage and every toss gateway unit has at least 40 shields.

    Another idea to try to use HT against a mainly roach/infestor would be to lead with one high templar a bit ahead from your army. Either they come at you with an infestor and fungal your one HT, or your HT gets off the feedback first. Either way, infestor count is lowered by one. If you get fungal'd again before your HT can run away, that means that is 2 less fungals that your opponent can do, and they will still need 1 more fungal to kill just that one high templar which sounds like a VERY good return for you. If the opponent just brings roaches at you to kill the templar you can just retreat the templar back, bring your main army forward and forcefield the zerg retreat path to make him lose the roaches.

    All in all a tech switch would have been MUCH easier to do. I would say with his composition, throwing voidrays into your army would have turned the game. Mainly because voidrays are a)cheaper than colossi, causing you to be able to get more HT or DT to harass with; b)easier to get a bigger number of; c)punishes the zerg even more. It makes the zerg choose what to fungal when battles happen, and either choice could be bad. If he fungals the voidrays all he can really do is back up and not die. There is nothing that he had that could kill them. So he is just buying time until his (most likely) hydra tech gets up and he has a good amount. But that will just make your templar tech THAT much better since templar are good vs Hydra. If he fungals your army, then all of his infestors die and slowly too will his roaches.

    Sorry for long post, just watched Day9 talk about a PvZ game and totally got geek'd up.
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  6. #16
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    Default Re: Why so few Infestors in top ZvP ?

    Haha.... we are kind of hijacking the OP's topic....

    My DT's were quite nicely spread actually.... he only ever caught 1 DT with each fungal.... and he had a few misses. He also did a very nice neural parasite on 1 of my HT and stormed my stalkers (poor choice to storm, but its still extra dmg to me and 1 less storm for me).

    I actually had a warp prism flying around too, but it was probably a bit late because by then, his natural wasn't really worth storming and I was already taking out his 3rd multiple times although I myself couldn't quite get up my 3rd either. He attempted some nice baneling drops at my mineral line, but aside from the 1st drop, subsquent ones he lost all his overlords and banelings and I died 1 or 2 probes.

    Anyway, yeah, he won fair and square... and I guess I was too much caught by surprise and my brain couldn't process things quickly enough.... my usual reaction to roaches thus far has been immortals, but I guess I really should consider using stargate tech a bit more. I used to do stargate all the time, but eventually gave up on it due to its inflexibility to deal with situations outside of mass muta.

  7. #17

    Default Re: Why so few Infestors in top ZvP ?

    Another unit that I may suggest to tackle roaches since you were heavy on templar tech (HT and DT) is the Archon. Once you find yourself in a situation with too many roaches, storm will not do enough damage to them, even because of tier2/tier3 regen rate. Archons have amazing DPS against tier 3 roaches, even when burrowed.

    I've played around with them myself, and since you already have the tech, why not get archons from your DTs. With 4 or so archons, you can deal a lot of splash damage to clumped up burrow-moving roaches.

  8. #18
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    Default Re: Why so few Infestors in top ZvP ?

    My poor archon got fungal'ed and neural parasited

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