How ar the artifacts Dues Ex Machina?

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Originally Posted by Eivind

When does she does this?

I've always found it odd that this Stukov deinfestation is considered canon. I'm not too familiar with the story (are these custom maps? Books?), but the whole idea is a bit weak. It destroys the poignancy of Patrio's Blood and is kinda insulting and somewhat of a retread. And as for the serum: If Metzen said it wasn't canon, then we wouldn't have this discussion. It's as if he says it, and then he does not in WoL, indirectly.

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My bad. She doesn't because the infestation problem wasn't so serious (!?!) if you chose Hanson, but she's working on it - just in time for HotS, I guess.

The serum idea is no more weaker than a magical artifact. When it comes to a gritty, sci-fi universe, a serum at least sounds like it would fit in that universe rather than rocks with power-beyond-imagination.

As for your disdain about insulting what was done in Patriot's Blood, what if (and I mean if) Kerrigan is deinfested and turned good, does that not also destroy the poignancy of Kerrigan's tragic rise?

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Originally Posted by Karass

From Resurrection IV I got an impression that the Protoss designed the serum soecifically to deinfest Stukov. After all, his infestation was kind of unique, since Cerebrate's own cells were used to revive and infest him.

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Are you now saying that this serum is not relevant in the discussion about a cure for infestation in general or for Kerrigan because Stukov had a special, unique infestation (can we call it Stinfestation?)? Not really a cure for infestation then if it only works on one individual and not to mention that Stukov was not really "infested" (he was Stinfested) in the generalised/normal way that we know that Zerg usually do). Yay, more unneccesary hair-splitting about the peculiarities of infestation!

Basically, yes. Stukov's infestation was clearly different from the "regular" infestation of a Terran: Cerebrate's own cells were used in it.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

can we call it Stinfestation?

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Yeah, that's a very good name!:cool:

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

The serum idea is no more weaker than a magical artifact. When it comes to a gritty, sci-fi universe, a serum at least sounds like it would fit in that universe rather than rocks with power-beyond-imagination.

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Here I think I made myself misunderstood, which in retrospect seems perfectly reasonable. I don't actually mind that there is a serum, in the same way I don't mind there being an artifact. What I mind is that there is a serum that somehow is forgotten all about. If Metzen just said, "The infestation isn't canon", it wouldn't be a problem. But because he did, there exists both a serum and an artifact, which makes Rayno's surprise upon the artifact's true effect very contradicting. I take it that he did say it is canon, and then went back on that (without saying it) in WoL. Perhaps if you asked him now, it isn't canon anymore?

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

As for your disdain about insulting what was done in Patriot's Blood, what if (and I mean if) Kerrigan is deinfested and turned good, does that not also destroy the poignancy of Kerrigan's tragic rise?

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Well, both yes and no, but mostly no. The idea about Stukov being infested is to me insulting* because we see him die, right before our eyes. He's dead, and we killed him. That he's actually alive later completely destroys that. It's like, "No! He died! And we helped Duran! Oh, gosh!", and then, "Oh never mind, he didn't die, and although he was infested, we fixed that. Phew!"

* A bit too much of a strong word when I think about it now, but that's not really important.

Kerrigan is a bit different. With her infestation, we were also mislead, but in a different way. In Patriot's Blood, we enter the installation with the (wrong) idea that Stukov is now the villain. We shoot him, and when it turns out we were wronged by Duran, it's too late. The blood is on our hands.

The blood is on our hands with Kerrigan too, but we never intended to leave her behind. Our intent was to destroy the Protoss, which we did, but when we were ready to leave, Mengsk decided to leave Kerrigan behind. It was never established that she was dead (only assumed so), and unlike Stukov, we never see her corpse.

That she comes back is, indeed as you say, tragic. That she now is deinfested is to me not insulting because the tragedy is neither erased nor forgotten (the latter part might probably be of importance in HotS), just stalled. With Stukov, it's as if nothing happened. Yeah, we shot him, but he didn't die, and he didn't become a mass murderer, so the same harm wasn't done. With Kerrigan, we unintentionally got her left behind, she came back, a lot of harm was done, and now her ability (or at least will) to not cause harm has (maybe) been weakened.

But not forgotten.

Interesting, Eivind. Since WoL, I don't really take much stock in what is considered 'canon' anymore when things can so easily be 'reinterpreted' down the track or when something is considered canon is then superseded by more recent canon stuff or even worse, downgraded to 'not-canon' if it doesn't fit.

WoLs story has shown me that I can't take anything I've been told in the past for granted because since we start seeing things as being set in stone, you get annoyed at 'changes' that are not really changes because you thought wrong, even if the original material lead me directly to these "wrong thoughts". *Sigh*

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Originally Posted by Eivind

The idea about Stukov being infested is to me insulting* because we see him die, right before our eyes.

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I can actually think of many 'outs' to justify Stukov still being alive. One, Stukov may just have thought he was dying from his wound and just fainted and was then infested. Two, Stukov was actually revived by the Zerg through this unique method called "Stinfestation". I could go on.

They may not 'sit right' with you but as long as there's a semi-justification, all's good, am I right? Some of the people who don't like WoL for some reason or other have arguments that are somewhat similar to the reasons why you dislike the notion of Stukov still being actually alive.

I wonder how you feel about Tassadar. It is heavily implied his sacrifice in Sc1 meant that he died. It is now revealed in Wol that suffered a "comic-book death"

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I have never tasted death, Zeratul -- nor shall I

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It is never actually stated that "Tassadar is dead" in SC1 or BW but the word 'sacrifice' crops up a lot in SC1 and BW to describe Tassadars action against the Overminds. Because people here are so fond of hair-splitting to justify some of the strange plot goings-on in WoL, I can say that the definition of "sacrifice" does not always entail death.

You make a ton of great points, T.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

Interesting, Eivind. Since WoL, I don't really take much stock in what is considered 'canon' anymore when things can so easily be 'reinterpreted' down the track or when something is considered canon is then superseded by more recent canon stuff or even worse, downgraded to 'not-canon' if it doesn't fit.

WoLs story has shown me that I can't take anything I've been told in the past for granted because since we start seeing things as being set in stone, you get annoyed at 'changes' that are not really changes because you thought wrong, even if the original material lead me directly to these "wrong thoughts". *Sigh*

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I totally agree. I'd like to explain why I accept certain stuff, and not others, though. I accept the new information about the Overmind in the same way I accept a twist in a movie. We are told we have been fooled, and that things weren't how we thought they were. I like being fooled when it comes to a movie, but I don't like feeling insulted.

Let me give an example. The new information about the Overmind is more contradicting to how I perceived the Overmind than how it really was. Yes, you can argue that this information does contradict what the Overmind really was, but I don't agree with that. Therefore, I accept that new information.

Stukov is different. If there exists a serum, then the revelation about what the artifact does contradicts facts, not interpretetation. Let me give an example.

A. We first think the Overmind is one thing.
B. We later find out we were wrong. I am fooled.

A. Stukov is deinfested by a serum.
B. An artifact is found that can deinfest. This is supposed to be surprising because this has not been possible before. I am insulted because this doesn't make any logical sense.

The two situations are similar, but not identical. The new revelation about the Overmind is not necessarily contradicting how the Overmind was, just what we think it was. But when the artifact's effect is supposed to be new, that is contradicting how things are. There is a serum. If Metzen had just said it was a wacky idea and no canon, the serum can be ignored and it becomes possible for Raynor to be surprised of the artifact's effect.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

I can actually think of many 'outs' to justify Stukov still being alive. One, Stukov may just have thought he was dying from his wound and just fainted and was then infested. Two, Stukov was actually revived by the Zerg through this unique method called "Stinfestation". I could go on.

They may not 'sit right' with you but as long as there's a semi-justification, all's good, am I right? Some of the people who don't like WoL for some reason or other have arguments that are somewhat similar to the reasons why you dislike the notion of Stukov still being actually alive.

I wonder how you feel about Tassadar. It is heavily implied his sacrifice in Sc1 meant that he died. It is now revealed in Wol that suffered a "comic-book death"



It is never actually stated that "Tassadar is dead" in SC1 or BW but the word 'sacrifice' crops up a lot in SC1 and BW to describe Tassadars action against the Overminds. Because people here are so fond of hair-splitting to justify some of the strange plot goings-on in WoL, I can say that the definition of "sacrifice" does not always entail death.

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I agree completely. It's just that I wish Metzen would disregard Stukov, because that would fix a lot of inconsistency.

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Originally Posted by Eivind

You make a ton of great points, T.

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Thanks, Eivind. It's good to know that my rants are at least sometimes semi-coherent :)

I have been told by others on this forum (Gradius in particular) that I shouldn't speculate or make assumptions too strongly. It makes sense because it could lead to 'false' facts that will set you up for disappointment. Funny thing is, without explicitly stating every single rule and fact in a fictional universe from the get go, we have to generate/assume/speculate unspoken facts from the material (an in-universe set of rules if you will) in order to like and at the least, make it believable. Since these 'false' facts in the universe can be uprooted at any time it can eventually cause a break in the believability of that fictional universe and disappointment. Keep this in mind as you go through the rest of this...

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Originally Posted by Eivind

I accept the new information about the Overmind in the same way I accept a twist in a movie. We are told we have been fooled, and that things weren't how we thought they were. I like being fooled when it comes to a movie, but I don't like feeling insulted.

Let me give an example. The new information about the Overmind is more contradicting to how I perceived the Overmind than how it really was. Yes, you can argue that this information does contradict what the Overmind really was, but I don't agree with that. Therefore, I accept that new information.

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Some of the people who don't like WoL, feel likewise "insulted" by these changes. I'll keep the following restricted to the Overmind "revelation" but you can make inferences to other "revelations" in Wols story, but "WoL dislikers" may feel it:

1) insults the nature of the character. It was a fact that the Overmind was metaphysically free in SC1 because we are not told otherwise, but now we are told it is not due to some "overriding directive" and because it was never stated as fact that it was metaphysically free in SC1.
2) insults their intelligence. How would you feel if some generalised your own whole character down to this one trait - this "overriding directive"? What would stop them saying Raynor is under some "hidden control" too because it was never mentioned that he was metaphysically free in SC1? We just assume he is because he's a human, right? But we can't with the Overmind because its alien? It sounds extremely conceited and truly facepalm material when it feels like that they're treating you like a fool. There is a difference in being fooled and being treated like one.
3) insults the subtle complexity yet inherent simplicity of the original. The revelation of the Overmind feel's like a revisionist take on the original rather than genuinely adding something new. Instead of natural and more interesting discussion about the motivations of the character, we now have more hair-splitting and nit-picking reasoning to justify the Overmind "revelation". Case in point (see (1) is the the circular reasoning that the Overmind has an overriding directive was because it did not say in Sc1 that it did not have an overriding directive. Also, Karass' reassurance that the Overmind in Sc1 has NOT really changed and should not be reinterpreted at all - how are we not able to be forced to nit-pick and make assumptions (wrong or right) when this new piece of information is presented as such a revelation?

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Originally Posted by Eivind

Stukov is different. If there exists a serum, then the revelation about what the artifact does contradicts facts, not interpretetation. Let me give an example.

A. Stukov is deinfested by a serum.
B. An artifact is found that can deinfest. This is supposed to be surprising because this has not been possible before. I am insulted because this doesn't make any logical sense.

The two situations are similar, but not identical. The new revelation about the Overmind is not necessarily contradicting how the Overmind was, just what we think it was. But when the artifact's effect is supposed to be new, that is contradicting how things are. There is a serum. If Metzen had just said it was a wacky idea and no canon, the serum can be ignored and it becomes possible for Raynor to be surprised of the artifact's effect.

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Not quite so. I don't mean to upset you by saying this, but your feelings of being "insulted" are misplaced because your assumption of "A. Stukov is deinfested by a serum" is wrong.

As I mentioned before and with Karass' help, your A should be Stukov was "de-Stinfested" with the serum. I know it's a nitpick (which you know how I feel on that matter) but with this in mind, now it is similar to your Overmind A and B situation. You shouldn't feel insulted by this now because you were misled/fooled in your assumption of (A) Stukov being "infested" in the first place, am I right?

I could spin it another other way. How can you be sure that your "B. An artifact is found that can deinfest" is correct? I've been told by others that it may not be actually causing de-infestation, it may just look like it is or it's doing something else (see this nit-picking trend, I mentioned?). Therefore, you shouldn't be insulted, because maybe "A. Stukov being de-infested by a serum" is right and worthy of your surprise, but B shouldn't be, because you (and Raynor) were misled/fooled into thinking the artifact specifically (and only) deinfests. Happy now? :D

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I agree completely. It's just that I wish Metzen would disregard Stukov, because that would fix a lot of inconsistency.

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Careful now. You're adding fuel for the "WoL dislikers" cause. What you think of as "inconsistency" is what they think about with all this Overmind and Tassadar stuff in WoL, too. ;)

the xel naga created other species before the protoss meaning that they may have wanted failsafes. Also, both protoss and zerg were uplifted via protogenic energy.

My guess is that two things happened.

First, the artifact is established to absorb energy; as such, it would drain the protogenic energy from kerrigan and her forces; this could be used to non lethally incapacitate early experiments that went out of control, but would kill species such as the protoss and zerg. in absorbing the protogenic energy it reverted the DNA transformation that made Kerrigan the Queen of Blades.

Second; since the zerg conditioning surpressed kerrigan's sense of empathy and compassion (thus making her a sociopath free to act on her darker instncts) the deinfestation would shatter the conditioning enough for the good person she once was to return.

Also, Kerrigan still has a long way to go; she still has to face her anger issues and lust for vengeance (that was an issue as seen when she killed the monster who abused her in the ghost program) and the darkness in her heart.

My guess is that she will face duran and kill him, but as he dies he says something like "even if you win, you will always be alone in the universe."

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Originally Posted by Gradius

Second, infestation with a hyperevolutionary "virus" itself doesn't make any sense to begin with, and I think the term "virus" is a misnomer and some terrans in the SC universe who didn't know what they were talking about invented the term. How does a DNA-altering virus even know what to touch?

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It seems implied to me that the virus doesn't know what to touch but randomly 'enhances' the body it infests. This may be why infested terrans often seem random and monstrous. The most successful of the random mutations would presumably propagated throughout the population to create successful strains of solider, such as we see in zerglings and hydralisks etc.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

A creature's phenotype is the result of many genes, not one, as well as the environment. A virus can't just change one part of the DNA to give the creature a claw.

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There is no reason why it can't. Genes can be put anywhere using retroviruses and can cause dramatic effects in the body.
For an example: http://www.thatsweird.net/news48.shtml (the story has a happy ending)

Originally Posted by sandwich_bird

"I didn't talk about a virus here. I'm thinking more about some kind of microscopic eukaryote based entity. The zerg cells wouldn't actually mutate the host cell's genetic code. Their metabolic activities would alone alter the host physical and behavioral aspect. If you're able to somehow remove every zerg cells present in the host (artifact thingy) then normal metabolic functions of the host would carry back on. Of course, this would only count for an organism that was infested like Kerrigan and not for one that was born "Zerg" which is why the artifact would kill zerg units(and structures I assume) but not Kerrigan."

This is actually a very interesting idea. It suggests a parasitic organelle that is responsible for all the zerg functions. However, I still maintain that if these organelles had a significant role to play in the organism (and I think in Kerrigan's case it is clear that it does) then removing them would still cause death. For instance, you would only need to have them say, strengthening a blood vessel, and their removal would cause that blood vessel to burst and then Kerrigan would haemorrhage and die. That is only one example, other problems, such as with metabolism, could also be fatal.


Ultimately, whether she would die or not and the exact nature of infestation does not really matter. What matters is how likely we perceive successful de-infestation by artefact to be. For me, the idea that someone 'infested to the core' as Kerrigan is could be non-fatally de-infested by an artefact that does not appear to be specifically designed for the job appears so unlikely as to take something away from the story. If it works for you that is great.

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Originally Posted by DarthYam

Second; since the zerg conditioning surpressed kerrigan's sense of empathy and compassion (thus making her a sociopath free to act on her darker instncts) the deinfestation would shatter the conditioning enough for the good person she once was to return.

Also, Kerrigan still has a long way to go; she still has to face her anger issues and lust for vengeance (that was an issue as seen when she killed the monster who abused her in the ghost program) and the darkness in her heart.

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I suspect this is where HotS is going. If it is done well it will be worth any complaints we might currently have.

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Originally Posted by Rake

It seems implied to me that the virus doesn't know what to touch but randomly 'enhances' the body it infests. This may be why infested terrans often seem random and monstrous. The most successful of the random mutations would presumably propagated throughout the population to create successful strains of solider, such as we see in zerglings and hydralisks etc.

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That's only for "failed" infestations. Kerrigan for example, isn't random.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

That's only for "failed" infestations. Kerrigan for example, isn't random.

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Good point. However, the problem is that in order to make the de-infestation of Kerrigan work, you need to start jumping through a number of hoops. In this case, that her form of infestation is particularly susceptible to non-fatal de-infestation. Did the Overmind particularly create her this way? Is she infested using zerg organelles rather than a zerg virus? Did Terran scientists know this before hand?

A little off topic, but I was just looking over Unreal wikia lore and U2: The Awakening (NOTE: Which I never played except UT2004) but it basically deals with assembling 7 ancient artifact pieces into some powerful weapon thats being collected by a "Terran Colonial Authority Marshal" etcetera. Revealing once one, the ancient malevolent Tosc race are reborn from their buried DNA within the petty Kai. (Looks like a Blizzard juggled version of Xel'Naga (plus their two creations), and the Hybrid.)

So could WoL's Xe'Naga Artifact have a greater role than its current cliche anti-zerg/infestation status related to Unreal's own artifact concept?

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Originally Posted by Rake

Good point. However, the problem is that in order to make the de-infestation of Kerrigan work, you need to start jumping through a number of hoops. In this case, that her form of infestation is particularly susceptible to non-fatal de-infestation. Did the Overmind particularly create her this way? Is she infested using zerg organelles rather than a zerg virus? Did Terran scientists know this before hand?

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We're not even sure if Kerrigan is really de-infested even though all evidence points to it. Hell, the artifact may have even made her a perfected Zerg-Human Hybrid for all we know!!

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Originally Posted by Eroldren

A little off topic, but I was just looking over Unreal wikia lore and U2: The Awakening (NOTE: Which I never played except UT2004) but it basically deals with assembling 7 ancient artifact pieces into some powerful weapon thats being collected by a "Terran Colonial Authority Marshal" etcetera. Revealing once one, the ancient malevolent Tosc race are reborn from their buried DNA within the petty Kai. (Looks like a Blizzard juggled version of Xel'Naga (plus their two creations), and the Hybrid.)

So could WoL's Xe'Naga Artifact have a greater role than its current cliche anti-zerg/infestation status related to Unreal's own artifact concept?

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This is a leading question. Because you're implying the artifact is no different/ a cliche from the one in Unreal, the only answer is no. They both have utility as a weapon but their 'real' function is secret until it is revealed to having something to do with bringing back (or doing whatever to/with/for/at) an ancient race. I doubt the real answer will be anything too different (or interesting) from that.

It would be potentially interesting if the Dark Voice gets a hold of it, and turning its use against the Zerg and Protoss (the latter are theorised to also be adversely affected by it) since the two races will likely be rallying against its forces.

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Originally Posted by mr. peasant

It would be potentially interesting if the Dark Voice gets a hold of it, and turning its use against the Zerg and Protoss (the latter are theorised to also be adversely affected by it) since the two races will likely be rallying against its forces.

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I've had a number of thoughts about this, too, but mainly about why the Dark Voice doesn't know about them and therefore, made use of this device prior to the events of WoL already. I mean the DV's been around as long as the Xel'Naga (and is most likely one) to screw with their designs, so you'd think it'd be fairly knowledgeable about certain 'artifacts', especially ones that can help it's own goals.

I know that we are told that the artifacts are only a few thousands years old and are shown to have untold power. But that just means the artifact pieces have been lying around for millenia. Why hasn't the agents of the DV been able to find them yet? I mean they weren't exactly that hard to find as WoL clearly shows. Moebius knew where they were and the Tal'Darim held a great number of them, but not some secretive "Great Enemy" with a vast intellect who has been planning all this time to destroy the Zerg and Protoss and has agents successfully fulfilling its plans?

I've been hearing rumours that either Moebius or even the Tal'Darim is in league with the DV. If either of that is true, you would naturally assume the DV (or his forces) would have found the artifact and used it by now.

Instead of spending all this time concocting a Byzantine plan to make Hybrids and to use them to crush his enemies, the DV could've used more of this time to find this artifact and to use it. Even if it does have an ulterior function, the artifact's utility as a weapon (even if it's goal was to not entirely kill Zerg and Protoss but to subdue them) is way more effective than Hybrids could ever be and its use is far more cost efficient to boot as well.

The only plausible reason for this is: The DV just doesn't know about them. Heh, it's kinda funny how this artifact continues to create such convenient plot machinations...

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

I've had a number of thoughts about this, too, but mainly about why the Dark Voice doesn't know about them and therefore, made use of this device prior to the events of WoL already. I mean the DV's been around as long as the Xel'Naga (and is most likely one) to screw with their designs, so you'd think it'd be fairly knowledgeable about certain 'artifacts', especially ones that can help it's own goals.

I know that we are told that the artifacts are only a few thousands years old and are shown to have untold power.

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I think the DV made those ones.

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But that just means the artifact pieces have been lying around for millenia. Why hasn't the agents of the DV been able to find them yet?

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Don't know. Maybe it was far away and only came through that portal that Zeratul saw in Twilight.

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I mean they weren't exactly that hard to find as WoL clearly shows. Moebius knew where they were

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I suspect that Narud (Duran?) is actually a servant of the Dark Voice and therefore knew where they were.

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and the Tal'Darim held a great number of them

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The Tal'darim of Aiur were in thrall to Ulrezaj, who has a boss (I suspect the Dark Voice himself). I wouldn't be surprised if the DV had the protoss guard these artifacts until he no longer needed them. But to be sure, this is getting quite speculative.

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I've been hearing rumours that either Moebius or even the Tal'Darim is in league with the DV. If either of that is true, you would naturally assume the DV (or his forces) would have found the artifact and used it by now.

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How is the Dark Voice (probably a xel'naga) still alive? Shouldn't the xel'naga have all died of old age by now, even survivors of the zerg attack?

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Instead of spending all this time concocting a Byzantine plan to make Hybrids and to use them to crush his enemies, the DV could've used more of this time to find this artifact and to use it. Even if it does have an ulterior function, the artifact's utility as a weapon (even if it's goal was to not entirely kill Zerg and Protoss but to subdue them) is way more effective than Hybrids could ever be and its use is far more cost efficient to boot as well.

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I have to wonder how effective the artifact is as a weapon. It's like the xel'naga temple of Shakuras. It takes time to activate. It needs an army to protect it, and said army can't be protoss, zerg or even hybrid as all three would probably be destroyed by it. Look how much trouble Raynor and Valerian went through in order to use it. They used half the Dominion fleet and still nearly got crushed in the initial invasion. (Why wasn't the artifact set up yet? And even then it had to charge up to full.)

I think the Tal'darim are certainly indirectly in legaue with Dark Voice. Tal'darim from worldship are an alliance of Protoss who chose to remain on the abandonded colonies formed after the Zerg invasion headed by Executor Lhassir. In that, they are much like Tal'darim of Aiur and Metzn explicitly hinted that the Worldship Tal'darim may also be under Ulrezaj's influence. Considering that Ulrezaj almost certainly serves Duran aka Dark Voice (he had six Hybrids in Aiur caverns), that makes Tal'darim puppets of DV as well.

The Dark Voice is probably the one who, indirectly, used the artifact. Valerian owns Moebius, which is lead by Narud, who is either Duran or connected to him, and who serves DV, who, according to Duran, has slept for "countless ages".

"Slept countless ages" rather refers to Xel'Naga cycle, of which the Hybrid are completion (in DV version). Duran is quiet obviously DV himself or rather, his "proxy" persona, who changed forms many times over the millennia and some of hios names were known to Zeratul ("you would know me best as Smir Duran").

As for Narud, I like the idea of him being a conceptual "rival" character for Duran a lot more than just blatantly being "Duran backwards". The theory about him being a scientist interested in the Xel'Naga and helping "good guys" against Duran is supported by the fact that "Emil" means "rival", "enemy" or "counterpart", coupled with his surname being backwards (read "opposite") of "Duran".

I'm not exactly sure if the Device was created by DV, although that's quiet possible.

I guess you could argue both ways. It's impossible to really say anything for certain until the expansions.

All of what you guys are saying is not helping me debunk the theory that the DV is a lazy-ass bastard who could've wiped out both Protoss and Zerg long ago.

The notion that the DV may have created the artifact only just strengthens that idea. Duran (if he really is Narud), who is also in control of Moebius and knowing about these artifacts as well as being in cahoots with DV also supports this. Even if Narrd is not Duran and not in league the DV, we have Ulrezaj. He serves the DV and his Tal'Darim know the whereabouts of most of the artifact.

Therefore, why has this artifact, with it's surprisingly effective utility as a weapon, only been discovered now and not been found and used earlier by the DV, an entity who has been around for ages (and maybe even created the damn thing?!?!), sooner if his agents seem to know about them?

How could we answer that? We have too little information yet.

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Originally Posted by Eivind

How could we answer that? We have too little information yet.

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My question's not really about looking for a definitive answer but rather to illustrate the illogic of introducing something so conveniently powerful that has always somehow been there to begin with. Besides, you and the others have proven yourselves to be quite good on the speculative front, I'm sure you'll appreciate the challenge :)

I've tried to think up possible and plausible reasons for this as well but all I got was something hackneyed/ convenient... the DV just doesn't know about them yet for some reason, is vulnerable to the artifact as well or something contrived. If we ever did know the reason, I somehow doubt that it will not be hackneyed as well. I guess that's the problem you run into when you introduce half-baked plot devices.

The thing is, DV couldn't afford to wipe out Protoss and Zerg long ago, oh no! He needs them to create the Hybrid while posing as Duran. That is why he used the Swarm to get rid of his brethren, the Xel'Naga, and put the Zerg on the collision course with the Protoss to stage the right itutation to create Protoss/Zerg Hybrid, thus completing the Cycle according to DV's vision.

Maybe DV needed Moebius an Raynor to assemble the Artifact for some reason. I bet we'll get more insight in this matter in HotS. BTW, Zeratul was mostly likely attacked by the Tal'darim before teleporting onto the Hyoerion: he states that he was attacked by "the Hounds of the Void" (i.e. DV's minions) and he meets up with Raynor just after The Dig mission, where Raiders get an artifact fragment from Xil, guarded by Tal'darim.

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The thing is, DV couldn't afford to wipe out Protoss and Zerg long ago, oh no!

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I'm not saying that the DV wants to wipe the Protoss and Zerg out, I'm saying that it could potentially do that if it wanted to. With the knowledge the DV has and the artifacts being somehow existing, it could've subdued both the Zerg and Protoss earlier on in the proceedings and then go mad scientist and make his Hybrids.

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Maybe DV needed Moebius an Raynor to assemble the Artifact for some reason.

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No doubt the artifact has some role with the "Xel'Naga cycle". I'm not disputing this. What I am disputing is the timing and the convenience of how things are coming together into a neat little package.

The question that no one asks is this: Where the hell is the Dark Voice now? Let's assume Duran is a servant of him. He has probably set events in motion that will bring DV back or something. The artifact may be a key to this.

Also, the Dark Voice has to wait for the hybrids to wipe out the Zerg and Protoss (which we see he can do with ease). The hybrids are his "race" or "kin" or whatever you'd call it, and since they are components of the Zerg and Protoss, annihiliation of the latter two is kind of a dumb thing to do if you are going to use them to create a new race. The hybrids are only now beginning to awaken.

how long have the hybrids been in development? he needs both of them. Duran stated that kerrigan indirectly helped in the development. The dark voice may have been incapacitated by a xel'naga sacrifice during the fall, forcing duran to carry out his dirty work.

Duran is quiet obviously Dark Voice's "proxy", his facade which changed names many time throughout the millennia, rather than a separate person. And I doubt that DV would want to subdue Zerg and Protoss, because he doesn't directly interferes to let the Cycle unfold, he just put the Zerg on the collision course with the Protoss in order to stage the creation of the Hybrid.

Perhaps the artifact is NOT a weapon. Maybe its primary use is different but it's secondary effects of damaging Protoss and Zerg was an invaluable tool.

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And I doubt that DV would want to subdue Zerg and Protoss, because he doesn't directly interferes to let the Cycle unfold, he just put the Zerg on the collision course with the Protoss in order to stage the creation of the Hybrid.

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We're not sure what the DV really wants. If he wanted to make Hybrids and force the cooperation of two unwilling species, you can't deny that the artifact would have been a great tool to "encourage" them to do so with minimal fuss and at a much earlier time. At the least, it would help subdue the more resistant individuals of each species to allow his greater plan to go forward with ease.

Also, why would the DV risk the Zerg and Protoss getting potentially powerful enough to stop it, even if it intended to pit them against each other, just to make Hybrids? Sure, I understand that their 'collision' will weaken both species as they fight, but what an effing mess to try and procure samples and then grow Hybrids in a warzone with the real possible threat of one or both races finding out what the DV is doing and then bringing its plans into ruination (as what seems to be happening in SC2s storyline)!

The DV could have started Hybrid production in the early years of Protoss and Zerg evolution (much like Dorian Routhe on Earth rounding up all the "rejects" for his experiments) without so much fuss as there is now. If the artifacts were made by the DV (near Protoss space) and the DV also influenced the Overmind (on the other side of the galaxy), it doesn't seem that hard for the DV to go from place to place to procure samples to start his own Grand Experiment right from the get go.

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Originally Posted by flabortast

Perhaps the artifact is NOT a weapon. Maybe its primary use is different but it's secondary effects of damaging Protoss and Zerg was an invaluable tool.

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I hope that's not the case. Otherwise, it would be even more convenient powers as the plot demands. In which case, the Artifact could probably be renamed the DEM emitter, or something. :D

What I meant was it may have been made to absorb Zerg and Protoss to use the energy for something else, but it ends up killing them in the end. Like those Phoenix things in Lefacy of the Xel'Naga.

It's more of a macguffin asspull.

Macguffins in general are sloppy writing. They take a suspensful situation where things are really dark and then interpose a convenient way to make it all happy again. This is done instead of having to come up with a more creative way of explaining how the heros get out alive, or perhaps transcending with a different ending that is less black/white.

In an interview, Dustin (I think it was Dustin) suggested that there may be more to the artifact than meets the eye, and that Kerrigan's de-Zergification may simply be a side effect of the artifact's true purpose.

Now, I'm a Magic the Gathering player so I've been a little spoiled - I'm used to stories which can have frustratingly vague events and conclusions, but Wizards of the Coast has shown that they generally set up for a payoff further down the road, even if it's many years away.

Dustin's comment about the artifact has put faith into me that WoL will look better in retrospect than it does right now. It's just a shame that they didn't hint at anything else about the artifact in WoL itself.

I just hope that come HotS and LotV, we'll see plenty of seeds planted in WoL come to fruition.

Whether deus ex machina in any precise sense or not, we can certainly agree that the artifacts are a major plot device. People have said it before here, SC1 and BW certainly had their fair share of plot devices, too. Just look at the shocking amount of crystals, there seems to be a crystal somewhere in the sector tailor-made to solve any problem, it would seem.

But plot devices aren't necessarily a catastrophe. If they are used to make a good story work, allow for characters to develop and build relationships and be interesting, then a plot device may be forgiven. Sure, it's awfully convenient that the Protoss manage to conjure up planet-sweeping powers on two occasions, but by and large that's the culmination of a focused, driven story that is more or less very well narrated. A strong, compelling narrative can get away with a few weak elements.

Unfortunately the narrative of WoL was neither strong nor compelling. The problem with the artifacts is that there is nothing driving the story to its conclusion. Most of the campaign is spent in an uninspired, unmotivated "well let's make some cash" manner. The final conclusion is hardly at all built up and only pops up in the last two or three missions, when suddenly and conveniently all the stuff you were doing up to then fits in magically to solve your problems.

The disconnect between the bulk of the campaign and its ending is the main problem. There is no build-up. The audience has no investment in the bulk of the campaign, and no relation to its ending. This is the failing of the artifact plot device.

Imagine how the story could have been constructed: In the beginning, Raynor is down and distraught. Then he learns rumours, bit by bit, of the powers of XN technology. Then he pursues those (cue missions in which the player has to achieve something!), and eventually learns more and more details about the prospects of saving Kerrigan. He then has to plan a strategy to recover the artifacts, to get someone who understands them and can operate them, and finally to find a way to get to Char. Perhaps it should have been him who convinced Valerian to mount an attack, offering him a way to outdo his father. We can have the exact same ending, but if it was something that I had knowingly worked towards, I might actually have had an emotional response at the end.

Too true, hack.

They should have looked at their old Terran campaign for inspiration. The psi emitter was a plot device too but used very well in context. It was understated and used more as an avenue to explore character development. It drove the story forward but it did not overshadow it. It did not dictate how the story was going to work out, it informed how the characters were going to take action.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

I do think it's trite, but I wouldn't call it a DEM. The artifact destroys Zerg cells. Just like the XN temple on Shakuras. Just like the Phoenix creature from SoTN, etc. It was not created to deinfest a human. It's even explained in the game. <_<

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During the 2010 BCon QA it was said that the whole de-infestation thing is just a side effect of the artifact. I think it is definitely not just a convinient solution from the writers. They said that the artifact has a big role to play in the future chapters.

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Originally Posted by RolleR_RATM

During the 2010 BCon QA it was said that the whole de-infestation thing is just a side effect of the artifact. I think it is definitely not just a convinient solution from the writers. They said that the artifact has a big role to play in the future chapters.

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So wait, does that mean the artifacts satisfy you? Or why are you bringing this up?

I don't doubt that the artifacts are important. They surely do play an important role even in WoL! The problem is that they're terribly disconnected from the story. Raynor (hence we the players) has no more interest in the artifacts than a McDonalds clerk has in burgers. They're simply a day job. The fact that they're important doesn't come up till the very end, and so there's no reason to care while you gather them and no feeling of accomplishment when they randomly turn out to be the big solution in the end.