Re: How ar the artifacts Dues Ex Machina?
If a body has a large number of cells that die, then that body will die (due to bleeding for instance). Kerrigan had a large number of zerg cells. Simply killing the cells would have killed her. For the artifact to allow Kerrigan to survive it would have to do something more to replace or repair those cells. That is why it seems too convenient to me.
I agree that it doesn't really matter if it is a DEM or not, since it is a trite device either way. That said, I can't think of any better way they could have arrived at the end point of de-infestation.
I will change my opinion though if the artifact turns out to be part of a much larger, well handled, plot.
Perhaps they could have not had her be de-infested at all. But then they might have run over the same ground as Broodwar and then we would have complained about that. ;)
Re: How ar the artifacts Dues Ex Machina?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mr. peasant
It doesn't matter what its true purpose is. The Artifact in and of itself is not the deus ex machina but this specific property of it (reversing Kerrigan's infestation) is.
And here is why: It breaks the rules that the game itself set up
During the game, we hear repeatedly that there is no known cure for the Zerg infestation. This means that there is no apparent method of accomplishing this feat. Then, enter the Artifact which somehow manages to do that very thing. Yet, no explanation or evidence was given other than Valerian's claim that it could; which is insufficient since, as I stated above, the game itself establishes that this shouldn't normally be able to happen.
When Raynor says, "There is no cure", he says it in the same way that I'd say there is no cure for cancer. But that doesn't mean that a cure for cancer doesn't exist somewhere out there, or that it at least will some day. You are confusing information and character interpretation with fact. You say, "we hear repeatedly that there is no known cure for the Zerg infestation", but who says this? Not Chris Metzen or Brian Kindregan, but Raynor, a character in the game and a human being, and human beings can be mistkaen. When Kerrigan says "Arcturus will come around, I know it" in the New Gettysburg mission and then he abandons her, that is not a fault of the game, it's a fault of Kerrigan. And if Raynor says, "Tassadar is dead", and Tassadar returns, Raynor is wrong, but the game is not.
And why are we arguing against the possibility of the artifact's effectivity and not the possibility of psionic storm? If a crucial (or maybe even vital) plot point became important because of psi storm, are we really paying 200/200 for a DEM?
I don't know how the artifact really works technically, and I don't really care. It works in the game's reality, and I accept that.
Re: How ar the artifacts Dues Ex Machina?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mr. peasant
It's not that simple. Even if it could specifically destroy Zerg cells, Kerrigan is a Terran-Zerg hybrid. Meaning, every cell of hers is part Zerg and about Terran. She is not some kind of Frankenstein monster of jumbled parts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rake
If a body has a large number of cells that die, then that body will die (due to bleeding for instance). Kerrigan had a large number of zerg cells. Simply killing the cells would have killed her. For the artifact to allow Kerrigan to survive it would have to do something more to replace or repair those cells. That is why it seems too convenient to me.
First off, I don't believe all of Kerrigan's cells themselves are pure zerg. She wasn't born from a hatchery, she was infested. Second, infestation with a hyperevolutionary "virus" itself doesn't make any sense to begin with, and I think the term "virus" is a misnomer and some terrans in the SC universe who didn't know what they were talking about invented the term. How does a DNA-altering virus even know what to touch? A creature's phenotype is the result of many genes, not one, as well as the environment. A virus can't just change one part of the DNA to give the creature a claw. Each part of DNA codes for different things even here on Earth, not just talking about alien species. And what if the DNA is left-handed instead of right handed? The concept is just silly IMO. I like sandwichbird's idea instead:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sandwich_bird
I didn't talk about a virus here. I'm thinking more about some kind of microscopic eukaryote based entity. The zerg cells wouldn't actually mutate the host cell's genetic code. Their metabolic activities would alone alter the host physical and behavioral aspect. If you're able to somehow remove every zerg cells present in the host (artifact thingy) then normal metabolic functions of the host would carry back on. Of course, this would only count for an organism that was infested like Kerrigan and not for one that was born "Zerg" which is why the artifact would kill zerg units(and structures I assume) but not Kerrigan.
Re: How ar the artifacts Dues Ex Machina?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eivind
When Raynor says, "There is no cure", he says it in the same way that I'd say there is no cure for cancer. But that doesn't mean that a cure for cancer doesn't exist somewhere out there, or that it at least will some day. You are confusing information and character interpretation with fact. You say, "we hear repeatedly that there is no known cure for the Zerg infestation", but who says this? Not Chris Metzen or Brian Kindregan, but Raynor, a character in the game and a human being, and human beings can be mistkaen. When Kerrigan says "Arcturus will come around, I know it" in the New Gettysburg mission and then he abandons her, that is not a fault of the game, it's a fault of Kerrigan. And if Raynor says, "Tassadar is dead", and Tassadar returns, Raynor is wrong, but the game is not.
We hear it from Raynor, Hanson and Selendis. This means that by and large, this is what the majority of the denizens of the K-sector believe. Hence, this is what we too are to be led to believe. Meaning, the rule is set so that there shouldn't be a cure. So, when something is able to actually reverse infestation, we are left thinking "Really? How?" much the same way someone would ask "Really? How?" when told there is a cure for cancer. And thus, an answer should be given within the context of the story using the rules that its universe has set up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eivind
And why are we arguing against the possibility of the artifact's effectivity and not the possibility of psionic storm? If a crucial (or maybe even vital) plot point became important because of psi storm, are we really paying 200/200 for a DEM?
No, because the Protoss are established as being psionic in nature and that they are able to cast psionic storm. Instead, if Nova was to use psionic storm in order to achieve victory, this would be convenient but not a DEM because it can be explained using the rules set up since she is psionic and thus possibly powerful a psychic to do so. However, if Raynor (rather than Nova) was to use psionic storm instead, then it would be a DEM since it runs against what we know about him since we think he's not psionic which is not to mean he can't be.
Ultimately, I've noticed this particular topic is going round in circles with people having different definitions on what a DEM is. However, I think most of us would agree that the Artifact's ability to turn Kerrigan human again (again, not the Artifact itself!), thereby allowing her to start HotS already as a non-villain, is very convenient and as such the way that was brought about was rather sudden.
Re: How ar the artifacts Dues Ex Machina?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mr. peasant
We hear it from Raynor, Hanson and Selendis. This means that by and large, this is what the majority of the denizens of the K-sector believe.
That's three characters. Even so, it's just their belief. Millions of people believe in God. Doesn't mean he exists.
The artifact is like the telephone. If you asked the majority of people on Earth if they'd believe something like the telephone could exist before it did, don't you think they'd answer the same way as Raynor, Hanson and Selendis does about the cure?
Quote:
No, because the Protoss are established as being psionic in nature and that they are able to cast psionic storm.
And the Xel'Naga is established as being almighty beyond the scope of human understanding, so I don't see them being able to reverse infestation as that much of a stretch.
Re: How ar the artifacts Dues Ex Machina?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mr. peasant
Ultimately, I've noticed this particular topic is going round in circles with people having different definitions on what a DEM is. However, I think most of us would agree that the Artifact's ability to turn Kerrigan human again (again, not the Artifact itself!), thereby allowing her to start HotS already as a non-villain, is very convenient and as such the way that was brought about was rather sudden.
Amen to that brother.
Re: How ar the artifacts Dues Ex Machina?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Karass
My guess is that Duran (aka Dark Voice or at least one of facades through which DV mostly indirectly influences the course of the cycle) staged Kerrigan's deinfesttion in order to create an uncertain situation in which Kerrigan may wing up killed or a leats rendered unable to free the Zerg (thus, helping to stop the Hybrid somehow) in order to remolve the greatest threat to his plan.
BTW, it is yet to be elaborated on how exactly Kerrigan freeing the Zerg from Duran's indirect control will help to stop the Hybrid. Tassadar is sure that this is the key to stoppinmg them, but didn't explain it in detail. I bwt we'll learn more about this in HotS since one the main themes of the campaign will be Kerrigan building the new Swarm.
I think freeing the zerg involves severing them from the hivemind somehow. If they need a hivefigure, then presumably the Dark Voice could use its power to take over the swarm. If they are not a hivemind, they can't all be controlled at once.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
. . .
You could say that it doesn't work on Kerrigan or some other excuse, but that is just running in circles, not to mention being "oh so convenient" again. If the serum is not a viable source for de-infestation for Kerrigan, then the argument is moot. Up till WoL, Kerrigans infestation (special or not) was not curable until "something" was invented to do so.
It could be that the serum has yet to be developed in plot. It could take place after Wings of Liberty.
In addition, perhaps the serum was Blizzard's early original idea, and it was going to be used on Kerrigan. They came up with the artifacts, and thus that plot-point is no-longer relevant.
Re: How ar the artifacts Dues Ex Machina?
Quote:
It could be that the serum has yet to be developed in plot. It could take place after Wings of Liberty.
In addition, perhaps the serum was Blizzard's early original idea, and it was going to be used on Kerrigan. They came up with the artifacts, and thus that plot-point is no-longer relevant.
I'm not sure you understand the point of what I was saying there. It doesn't matter if the serum is explored later in HotS because knowledge of de-infestation would have had Raynor seeking out Kerrigan soon after he knew it existed to 'redeem' himself.
If the serum (In Resurrection IV) is canon as Karass insists, then Raynor definitely knows of its existence and that, most importantly, it works.
If Raynor knows this, why is he moping about not being able to save Kerrigan in WoL? That should be more than enough motivation to spur him on. Afterall, Raynor's major turning point in his character during WoL is when Valerian offers to "save Kerrigan" through the use of the artifact.
The excuse that Raynor does not have enough resources to tackle Kerrigan even if he knew of the serum is total BS. The whole WoL campaign is quite blatant at showing how good a general Raynor is when he has the right motivation as well as having very limited manpower when he invaded Char. Also it seems that Kerrigan would never kill Raynor (he knows this, too, since he loves her afterall :rolleyes:) if he decided to come to her.
It seems obvious that the serum does not actually work or does not exist even because what we actually have in WoL shows Raynor at a total loss as to how to redeem himself of his failures (ie: saving Kerrigan) and that there is no mention of it as a possible option for de-infestation. Raynor himself says
Quote:
Just in case, maybe you should start looking into some kind of cure for the zerg virus.
Maybe if there was a serum, it was somehow disproven in those 4 years that somehow went by without consequence or anything interesting happening at all in the K sector up until WoL...
As a side not, a serum as a cure for infestation sounds a lot less hokey than an artifact with unimaginable and as of yet, unknown powers (woooo, spooky!). It's also strange that since Hanson was able to find a cure for infestation (which is apparently the canon choice), Raynor does not make use of this information to help de-infest Kerrigan or the hundreds of infested terrans he carelessly mowed down on Char (if you decided to go "Belly of the Beast").
Re: How ar the artifacts Dues Ex Machina?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Turalyon
It's also strange that since Hanson was able to find a cure for infestation
When does she does this?
I've always found it odd that this Stukov deinfestation is considered canon. I'm not too familiar with the story (are these custom maps? Books?), but the whole idea is a bit weak. It destroys the poignancy of Patrio's Blood and is kinda insulting and somewhat of a retread. And as for the serum: If Metzen said it wasn't canon, then we wouldn't have this discussion. It's as if he says it, and then he does not in WoL, indirectly.
Re: How ar the artifacts Dues Ex Machina?
From Resurrection IV I got an impression that the Protoss designed the serum soecifically to deinfest Stukov. After all, his infestation was kind of unique, since Cerebrate's own cells were used to revive and infest him.
