Koprulu Terran population

With the release of WoL Blizzard posted profiles of some of the planets within and near Korpulu Sector. Most of these planets are Terran worlds. From the profiles and SC2 itself weknow more about population of some of these worlds by the time of SC2 events. Korhal (after its restoration) has around 6.3 billion people on it, Umoja has ~2.1 billion and Moria has ~4.1 billion. We also know that several billion Terrans live on other Koprulu worlds.

By the latter part of Second Great War in SC2 about 8 billion people were killed by the Kerrigan's Zerg, most of them during the Second War. Many of the Sector's original (i.e. prior to the first invasion) population were also killed in the Great War in SC. So, what is the estimted number of Terrans living on all Confederacy/Dominion, Kel-Morian and Umojan planets? My rough count is about 20 billion. This is a pretty big number, but it is, in fact, fairly logical, since in the first decades of colonization of the first three and other planets there could very well be a major population growth, triggered by various technological and social factors, escpecially since the time when the three original colonies finally contacted. And the Terrans were colonizing the sector for about 240 years by time SC began. The Koprulu Sector population can be numbered in couple of tens of billions.


So, what do you think about Terran population? Is my estimation fairly correct?

Please see the link

http://sclegacy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=182

Thank you, but I suggest continuing the discussion here for the sake of not bumping a four months old thread.

I think Koprulu Sector population by the time of SC vanilla is about 20 billion. It is rather logical, even considering the fact that there were 32k original colonists, since there could very well be significant population boost over this two and a half centuries, especially suring the first decades of colonizations and on newly colonized planets.

I don't know about the numbers because if you try to calculate it based on average growth every year up to 250 years, the population size would have to grow on average 80 million each year to get to the 20 billion mark!

There are a lot of factors going against this - they had to start their colonies from scratch when they first arrived. Survival would have been their top priority for at least that first decade or so. I wouldn't think really had an inclination to start breeding then because that would have been a tough time. We also don't know the ratio of male to female on the supercarrriers either. They were all criminals, society's rejects and what not so you'd assume that there'll be a higher ratio of male to female.

Actually, they didn't have to start colonies on Tarsonis, Umoja and Moria from scratch when they first arrived. Supercarries had all the supplies and SC manual states that the colonists salvaged them to find a new home.

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They were all criminals, society's rejects and what not

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Actually, they were mostly criminals because of their genetic and cybernetic differences from other humans.

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Originally Posted by Karass

Actually, they did have to start colonies on Tarsonis, Umoja and Moria from scratch when they first arrived. Supercarries had all the supplies and SC manual states that the colonists salvaged them to find a new home.

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It's more or less accepted that the supercarriers left them some sort of schematics to at least build up an industrial structure to support themselves, since it makes no sense for them to recreate sub-warp engines in just 60 years in addition to all the other progress they made, unless all the crew were made up of geniuses.

BTW, there was a little typo in my post you quoted, Gradius. I wanted to write "didn't", instead of "did" :)

Actually, humans tend to breed more in times when survival is paramount. There used to be much larger families in the olden days.

Also, the confederate old famlies are a mere fraction of the total populace in SC vanilla. The old families are the pure bloods of ancestors that happened to be the original settles from the prison ships. Of course, that really only probably applies to the ones that landed on Tarsonis.

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Originally Posted by solidsamurai

Actually, humans tend to breed more in times when survival is paramount. There used to be much larger families in the olden days.

Also, the confederate old famlies are a mere fraction of the total populace in SC vanilla. The old families are the pure bloods of ancestors that happened to be the original settles from the prison ships. Of course, that really only probably applies to the ones that landed on Tarsonis.

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So if you don't mind me asking, the people who are not of the Old Families would then be descended from whom?

The Old Families call themselves the "oldest families" but they're actually the descendants of the Nagglfar's commanders.

(How you command a ship while frozen is an open question.)

I think "commanders of Nagglafar" means that they commanded the Nagglafar passangers, and the manual does state that the colonists initially used the supercarriers as a refuge.

Back on the topic of pop numbers and their feasibility...

What do you have to say about the pop. growth having to maintain an average of 80 million a year to get to the 20 billion mark? Assuming there are equal numbers of male to female, it would mean that all of the women would have to be constantly pregnant all the time from the get go with no deaths (wastes time you see) not to mention that the babies would have to wait at least 12 or so years (the females at least) before they too can (must in this case) breed.

I know pop growth is based on a log scale, but those first few years would be too slow to get to the 20 billion mark in just 250 years, afterall it took Earth (a place with ideal conditions) about 1800 years to get 1 billion. Then again, they have cloning technology so in the end, yes 20 billion is possible in 240 years.

What source says they have cloning technology.

There could well have been population growth boosts over these 240 years, especially in the first decades of colonization and on newly colonized worlds. Here's a post from SC Legacy with the pretty damn good analysis of population matter:

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Originally Posted by newcomplex

Roughly 275 hundred years ago, 40,000 terran were sent to the korprulu sector. Within the first 100 years, their would be a period of instability. Factoring in both the alien environment with the increased life expectancy, it would be logical that death rate is .8% or so, roughly what we have today, the hostile enviroment counterbalancing vastly improved med tech. Birth would be high, lets put the average at 5, something comparable to developing nations today. (it is higher, because the terran population can afford to sustain this rapid growth because of vastly improved tech and a planet of untapped resources). Lets assume five generations are created within the century, something else comparable to developing nations.

After a century, we get 125,000,000 people, factor in the death rate, and we get roughly 85 million left standing.

The next 175 years, the population should stabilize to say, 3 births, but the death rate would go down to say, .7%, kept up only because of wars, and 25 years per generation. All reasonable estimates.

That gives a whopping 65 billion people, and after factoring death rates, leaves us with 19 billion.

Factors that limit population size, like land available, and resources, are less problematic due to colonial expansion into several solar systems, terraforming, and tech like sustainable cold fusion.

Makes sense.

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Though there is a couple of mistakes (there were 32k original colonists, not 40k, supercarries arrived in Tarsonis System 240, instead of 275), they don't significally affect the calculations. My point is basically the same as this posts.

And here's another good point (too from SC Legacy):

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Originally Posted by Kacaier

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population

I wish I could use all those population growth equations from the days of Environmental Science, but I am absolutely horrible with retention and relearning on my own basis. I need to be forced this stuff to be competent with it.

However, looking at the graphs via wikipedia, you can see that the world population jumped exponentially from the 1700s to 2000s. While that is indeed three centuries, much of the growth between the 1700s and 1900s was from the European nations and its descendants (US, Canada). It wasn't until the 1930s-40s that the whole world population jumped together.

A large misconception of why our population is so high is that people believe greater technology and the more ease of food allowed people to grow so fast. Unfortunately, that is not true. Humans have always had an extremely high population growth, with the exception of Europe and Japan of today. It is modern medicine and the ability to lower mortality rates in which we jumped. This has forced the doubling rate (the rate at which a population will double itself) below 100 years, less than a century.

The Koprulu Terrans have technology far greater than what we have today. There is no doubt that they can lower the mortality rate to a very minuscule number (despite murders and crime). You also must recall that Terrans there don't act like we do. They recreated the Confederacy and had "Old Families" much like in the antebellum South. These families had up to 10-12 children.

So, compound high birthrate with low doubling rate, and you'll get to a billion in no time. Though of course, I'm not sure it wholly adds up from Terran landing to post-Brood War, but it's somewhat plausible in my mind.

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I was just playing devil's advocate for those who'd want to question your numbers. As you have found out, the topic's been covered well and truly.

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What source says they have cloning technology.

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As for this, the manual states that prior to the 'exile' the "manipulative sciences of cybernetics, cloning and gene-splicing rose steadily into the public forum". The UPL eventually banned all of this and rounded up all these 'criminals', some of which were versed in those sciences or a product of those techs. Some of these would have made their way onto the supercarriers. So it's feasible that cloning tech may have been utilised to help supplement the old-fashioned way to bring that population up.

Yes, cloning could have also been used.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

I know pop growth is based on a log scale, but those first few years would be too slow to get to the 20 billion mark in just 250 years, afterall it took Earth (a place with ideal conditions) about 1800 years to get 1 billion. Then again, they have cloning technology so in the end, yes 20 billion is possible in 240 years.

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But you're talking about a situation that doesn't matter in the K-Sector. On Earth, doctors didn't even wash their hands until the late 1700s as they didn't know about bacteria then.

The K-Sector refugees would at least know basic hygiene, and have better tech than people who live in the year 1800. Infant mortality would have been much less then.

And, of course, Earth wasn't empty of human life since about 150,000 years ago, or more. Tarsonis, Umoja and Moria were pristine and unspoiled when the terrans first landed.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

As for this, the manual states that prior to the 'exile' the "manipulative sciences of cybernetics, cloning and gene-splicing rose steadily into the public forum". The UPL eventually banned all of this and rounded up all these 'criminals', some of which were versed in those sciences or a product of those techs. Some of these would have made their way onto the supercarriers. So it's feasible that cloning tech may have been utilised to help supplement the old-fashioned way to bring that population up.

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If there was cloning tech in mass use, we probably would've heard of it by now; especially if we're talking about cloning on the scale of population growth. You wouldn't even need resoc criminals to fill your ranks, just clone your army (And we shall call it, the Grand Army of the Confederacy...)

Anyways, since we do now have some idea of what the total population could be, plus the time period, figuring out the rate of growth is easy. With a starting pop of 32,000 and ending of ~20 billion, would need to grow at a rate of ~5.7%. That's higher than even the poorest shithole of a third world nation, but it's possible I suppose. People live longer, have more babies (a lot more babies), fewer people die each year, etc.

Of all the things Blizzard could've retcon, this at least would've been the least offensive and made the most sense.

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Originally Posted by Kimera757

But you're talking about a situation that doesn't matter in the K-Sector. On Earth, doctors didn't even wash their hands until the late 1700s as they didn't know about bacteria then.

The K-Sector refugees would at least know basic hygiene, and have better tech than people who live in the year 1800. Infant mortality would have been much less then.

And, of course, Earth wasn't empty of human life since about 150,000 years ago, or more. Tarsonis, Umoja and Moria were pristine and unspoiled when the terrans first landed.

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I conceded this point earlier...

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With a starting pop of 32,000 and ending of ~20 billion, would need to grow at a rate of ~5.7%. That's higher than even the poorest shithole of a third world nation, but it's possible I suppose.

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That is a glaring stat you've pointed out. Having to sustain ~6% growth rate is no mean feat, especially when the K-Sector is constantly in a state of war.

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If there was cloning tech in mass use, we probably would've heard of it by now; especially if we're talking about cloning on the scale of population growth. You wouldn't even need resoc criminals to fill your ranks, just clone your army (And we shall call it, the Grand Army of the Confederacy...)

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Who says they haven't used some of this tech already? It was already accepted as part of their 'culture' before they were rounded up Earth.
Also, it's possibly easier, cheaper and media friendly/socially acceptable to resoc criminals than just cloning people for the sole means of cannon fodder?

Then again, I find it somewhat hard to believe that the population will be outraged by cloning people for wars given they accepted genetic mutation, cybernetic and cloning to immoral levels back on Earth (leading the to UPL to try and cull them).

Maybe they can't age clones at great speeds, and the financial strain of supporting these numbers of people for fifteen-twenty years before they are capable of serving as troops would make it a poor investment. After all, troops are usually needed now not in fifteen years.

Terrans of the Koprulu Sector obviously do have a form of cloning technology. It isn't mentioned outright, but we can try common sense: the original colonists were people heavily involved in the banned sciences, which include cloning. Since after the crash of the supercarriers the colonists were no longer under UPL's control, it is more than logical that they weren't obeying Earth's restrictions on manipulative sciences (and it was directly implied that they didn't obey the bans, since we know that cybernetic enhancement is abundant in the Koprulu sector) when colonizing the sector.

Or perhaps, rather than cloning, they could just make do with external pregnancies using an artificial uterues. I mean, harvest one ovary and you can have about 20,000 eggs to fertilise. Using this method, you have better genetic variability and you don't wind up with hundreds or thousands of people looking exactly the same. Also, instead of growing them for armies (which would be expensive due to training), Terrans could be growing them for start-up colonies. Harvest an ovary (or more), create several thousand able-bodied individuals with no familial ties with anyone outside and chuck them on a planet with the bare essentials.

That's somewhat a form of cloning as well and I'm it was developed this was on Earth and the colonists later used it when exploring the sector.

Not to be pedantic but 'cloning' is specifically about creating offsprings who are all genetically identical to one another and to their parent (individual), from whom the genetic material was first obtained from. The method I described above is simply creating a big batch of regular babies (meaning, they are genetically different from one another and from their parents) in a sort of baby farm.

Concept-wise, they are quite different from one another as the former is a form of asexual reproduction where as the latter is a form of sexual reproduction.