Zerg "macro" idea -- reabsorption

Got this idea from this TL post. Essentially, after researching "Absorb" at a Lair, the Zerg would be able to take any unit sitting on creep (that links with a friendly H/L/H) and "digest" it to get a return of the resources it took to morph that unit -- a return that would be controlled by the unit's HP and a "control percentage". The equation would look something like this:

(resources gained) = (unit cost)*(%HP remaining)*(control percentage)

It would be important to have the %HP factor in there, since getting nearly full resources back for a nearly dead unit would be completely imba. The control percentage would be there to prevent the player from throwing around resources like whatever. I think about 85% would be good.

This would give the Zerg a mechanic that is unique and very, very zergy in nature, and it would work very well with the Queen's larvae mechanic. I would be happy to lose the Terran's salvage in order to let the Zerg have this mechanic.

Creep is not player owned.

The other thing is that zerg are kinda all about throwing cannon-fodder at your front lines. Protoss are the preservation race. I do like consume for energy though.

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Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur

Creep is not player owned.

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I know, but it should be easy to tell if creep is connected to a Hatchery, Lair, or Hive that belongs to you.

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Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur

The other thing is that zerg are kinda all about throwing cannon-fodder at your front lines. Protoss are the preservation race.

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But that's a preservation of essence -- not necessarily of all units (look at the Reaver). The Zerg aren't preserving an essence in this process. They are killing the unit for minerals needed elsewhere. They may not be about preservation, but they are about efficiency.

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Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur

I do like consume for energy though.

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This is pretty much the same idea, but it's for resources instead of energy.

I dunno, one of the things I like about SC is how brutal it is in regard to making mistakes. Built your Supply Depot to the right of your command centre? Better kill it yourself, moron. One pylon powering 12 cannons? Your own fault. Spawned the wrong unit when playing the one race that's absolutely unforgivable with? Deal with it and adapt.

Admittedly, the idea of salvaging bunkers etc. doesn't sound too bad to me, so this idea could grow on me. Perhaps limit what units can do it? Ground only or early tiers only? Or change what it gives back, and make it unit specific? Say a tier 3 zergling ability that ... I dunno, allows creep to harvest or something? A macro ability, in other words.

I think it should be ok. In this case, it's obvious that if you want to absorb the unit to recover resources, the Creep should be connected to your buildings, so in this case the Creep does have an "owner", even if any Zerg can build on it. In fact, for gameplay motives, it would be probably better if the Creep had an owner, so that enemy Zerg cannot build on it, and don't get a speed benefit in your own Creep.

I don't know if the ability is too usefull, however.

We could alter the requirements to fit better if you like. Rather than the unit simply being on the creep, why not say it must be on the creep and within a certain range of one of your Zerg buildings?

Or put the ability on the hatchery


OR give the queen consume. Free larva and creep tumors for everyone!

lol, so basically a Zerg version of salvage, except for units and doesn't return 100%?

I think it should return 100% resources. Think about it; Zerg units can regenerate their hit points. Eventually, they would recover their full health anyway. By making it 100% return, this speeds up the healing process at the expense of Larvae and momentary vulnerability. In addition, it would be heck of a lot simpler to code/balance.

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Originally Posted by Pandonetho

lol, so basically a Zerg version of salvage, except for units and doesn't return 100%?

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Yep, except that the limit behind Terran salvage was that it could only be used on certain buildings and no units. This would be used on all units and no buildings. Since that limit has been removed, another has to be added, hence the "taxed" return. I like this more than Terran salvage, and would gladly give Terran salvage up, since it doesn't do much anyway.

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I like this more than Terran salvage, and would gladly give Terran salvage up, since it doesn't do much anyway.

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Really? Because some people say that Salvage could be OP in its current carnation.

Those crazy TLers and their crazy ideas!

Giving the ability to the hatchery and make it a ranged ability will help out trouble shooting as creep is not player owned. As a secondary effect the hatchery might stop producing larvae (even if Spw larvae is used on it).

This way ppl might think it twice...

as well slots could be added into the hatchery, this will allow the player to recycle every unit but with different timing

lets say a ling takes a single spot... so u can digest 4 at the time and takes a little time.

then u decide recycling an ultra... so u can digest only one and takes longer

Nonetheless, the process can't be stopped, so if you lose the hatchery you lose the unit and resources as well.

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Well, but now i believe recycling my units is a bad idea (time and no larvae) What stops me from not doing it?

Easy, after a unit is digested it will return 2x the original resources. (subject to balance of course)

Er... yeah, don't like it much. Giving the Queen 'consume' is a much better idea in my opinion. Maybe as a hive upgrade?

My question about this is: what makes it better than Spawn Larvae?

It is the resource asselerator of the zerg, why should i have more larvas than i can produce units.

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Originally Posted by The_Blade

It is the resource asselerator of the zerg, why should i have more larvas than i can produce units.

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Because you can prduce drones with those larvae, thus giving you more minerals, while also having options open to use the larvae for any number of other things?

Zerg are quite vulnerable when producing drones. As for terrans and protoss its not that risky to boost resources. Even if you manage to produce the drones necessary to reach the full capacity of a boosted protoss, you will still make less minerals than him.

(following information is a test)
60 probes harvesting = 600 mins per min
60 drones harvesting = 500 mins per min

And if by some point you manage to match the scores. Population for the zerg will start being a problem.

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Originally Posted by The_Blade

Zerg are quite vulnerable when producing drones. As for terrans and protoss its not that risky to boost resources. Even if you manage to produce the drones necessary to reach the full capacity of a boosted protoss, you will still make less minerals than him.

(following information is a test)
60 probes harvesting = 600 mins per min
60 drones harvesting = 500 mins per min

And if by some point you manage to match the scores. Population for the zerg will start being a problem.

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Ermmm...don't all workers bring in 5 minerals per trip, and every races workers mining time is exactly the same?

Would be crazy in the late late game when instead of killing of drones for extra supply you actually get paid for it lol.


And with the new larva mechanic I feel that zerg will have enough larva too produce drones and units just fine

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Originally Posted by SaharaDrac

Ermmm...don't all workers bring in 5 minerals per trip, and every races workers mining time is exactly the same?

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protoss have proton charge, and they can make probes work faster. Mules just start bringing in insaine amounts of minerals and im not sure if gas. Zerg can build many units, my point is with what extra minerals.

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Originally Posted by Islandsnake

Would be crazy in the late late game when instead of killing of drones for extra supply you actually get paid for it lol.


And with the new larva mechanic I feel that zerg will have enough larva too produce drones and units just fine

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Except in both BR's it was in, the Zerg player was unable to keep up with the opposing team's economy. Moreover, in the TvZ one, the Terrans were able to outproduce and outmass the Zerg. Lastly, at worker saturation, the Zerg will be severely outmatched in resource gathering.

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Originally Posted by The_Blade

protoss have proton charge, and they can make probes work faster. Mules just start bringing in insaine amounts of minerals and im not sure if gas. Zerg can build many units, my point is with what extra minerals.

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They bring in extra minerals for a set, short amount of time. Extra drones built from extra larvae mine forever.

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Originally Posted by SaharaDrac

They bring in extra minerals for a set, short amount of time. Extra drones built from extra larvae mine forever.

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larvas won't mine untill you invest 50 mins on each

Hmm, I think a Nydus Network can have this "Consume/Absorption" macro ability. It's at the perfect tier, the perfect graphical implication (giant organic grinder/blender) and macro-based transportation to relate to.

I think the Hatchery has enough things crammed into its UI interface already.


-Psi

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Originally Posted by The_Blade

larvas won't mine untill you invest 50 mins on each

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Yesss...i know. Then they mine hundreds and hundreds and thousands of minerals, not stopping until there are no more minerals on the map or until they die.

Spawn Larvae = economy boost. I don't think many people question this.

I would like to hear from the person who proposed this idea to answer my original question: What makes this better for the game than Spawn Larvae?

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Originally Posted by mr. peasant

Except in both BR's it was in, the Zerg player was unable to keep up with the opposing team's economy. Moreover, in the TvZ one, the Terrans were able to outproduce and outmass the Zerg. Lastly, at worker saturation, the Zerg will be severely outmatched in resource gathering.

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I hear BRs are a great way to decide balance.


People win with zerg all the time, they have the numbers and they wont let everyone else mine more than zerg.

I think spawn larva is probably the most powerful mechanic being able to save all that larva up could be pretty nifty. Plus queens are cheaper than extra hatchery's I think? Thats a big boost as well

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Originally Posted by Islandsnake

I hear BRs are a great way to decide balance.


People win with zerg all the time, they have the numbers and they wont let everyone else mine more than zerg.

I think spawn larva is probably the most powerful mechanic being able to save all that larva up could be pretty nifty. Plus queens are cheaper than extra hatchery's I think? Thats a big boost as well

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Agreed. People read really far too deeply into the BRs...that's not what the Battle Reports were for. The Zerg player was clearly less practiced and less skilled than David "Bonjwa Supreme" Kim. He lost because he didn't play as well, not because Zerg needs a new Macro mechanic, because Stalkers Blinked away, or any other reason you can cite from BR3.

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Originally Posted by SaharaDrac

Agreed. People read really far too deeply into the BRs...that's not what the Battle Reports were for. The Zerg player was clearly less practiced and less skilled than David "Bonjwa Supreme" Kim. He lost because he didn't play as well, not because Zerg needs a new Macro mechanic, because Stalkers Blinked away, or any other reason you can cite from BR3.

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While that is indeed true, the Devs themselves admit that Zerg needs the most work right now, and I'd tend to believe them.

I agree with PsiWarp: if this was to be implemented it would be perfect for the Nydus network. Placing it there wouldn't give the Zerg too much of an advantage or disadvantage either way and it might even encourage building the Nydus Network, which appears to be very underused by all accounts I've read.

Thanks Xyvik, here's for reference:

http://www.sc2pod.com/w/images/0/0f/Nydus_Network.jpg

If those teeth are not for chewing and breaking bones, I don't know what they are for.


-Psi

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Originally Posted by PsiWarp

Thanks Xyvik, here's for reference:

http://www.sc2pod.com/w/images/0/0f/Nydus_Network.jpg

If those teeth are not for chewing and breaking bones, I don't know what they are for.


-Psi

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Maybe they're for cuddling all of the lovely Zerg hordes? *shudder* I've never seen a closeup of the Nydus lol, thanks, that looks like a meatgrinder to me :eek:

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Originally Posted by PsiWarp

Thanks Xyvik, here's for reference:

http://www.sc2pod.com/w/images/0/0f/Nydus_Network.jpg

If those teeth are not for chewing and breaking bones, I don't know what they are for.


-Psi

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Preventing enemy zerg broods from using the nydus network for their own ends? :p

Thou art incorrect! One Bee-Itch To Rule Them All!

Anyway, Consume making a return but with different function, sounds great. What alternatives to the OP's formula of return can we device?


-Psi

Are you suggesting this replace Spawn Larvae, or that Zerg gets 2 macro mechanics for extra money just because they're special?

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Originally Posted by SaharaDrac

Are you suggesting this replace Spawn Larvae, or that Zerg gets 2 macro mechanics for extra money just because they're special?

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Protoss have two macro mechanics. Warp-in and the Obelisk.

Anyway, a second macro-mechanic isn't necessary. Spawn Larvae is REALLY versatile. And it only allows the Zerg to expand faster and more easily than ever. (The larvae limitation is what prevents the Zerg from constructing tons and tons of Drones and drenching their numerous expansions with workers. Spawn Larvae allows the player to do that.)

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Originally Posted by Aldrius

Protoss have two macro mechanics. Warp-in and the Obelisk.

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Warp-in isn't really an economic macro mechanic, or at least not in the same way that Salvage is. Besides, each race already has two mechanics:
Terran - Economic (MULE), Economic (salvage)
Protoss - Economic (Proton Charge), Production (Warp-In)
Zerg - Production (Spawn Larva), Transport (Nydus Network)

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Originally Posted by Aldrius

Protoss have two macro mechanics. Warp-in and the Obelisk.

Anyway, a second macro-mechanic isn't necessary. Spawn Larvae is REALLY versatile. And it only allows the Zerg to expand faster and more easily than ever. (The larvae limitation is what prevents the Zerg from constructing tons and tons of Drones and drenching their numerous expansions with workers. Spawn Larvae allows the player to do that.)

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Uhh...warp-in isnt a macro mechanic and i specifically said "for money".

I tend to think of it as macro mechanics and macro-like mechanics. Macro mechanics give direct economic and unit production increases. Macro-like mechanics mimic the multi-tasking of traditional macro.

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Originally Posted by SaharaDrac

Uhh...warp-in isnt a macro mechanic and i specifically said "for money".

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Warp-in is definitely a macro mechanic, it's a production mechanic.

But er... point on your second comment there.

Think of Consume as the almost exact opposite of SCV Repair, which in itself is macro involved.

Instead of using resources to increase health, you use an entire unit to increase resources.


-Psi