What is it about Ghosts that actually let them stand a chance against the Toss?

Alright, so we all know that your average ghost is run of the mill against your average Protoss (according to the DT saga).

We know Terran technology is inferior to Protoss technology.

A zealot could probably beat a ghost in a mind battle.

What do ghosts actually have that allow them to effectively take on missions against the Toss?
And how come they're not psionically detected by nearby Protoss?
IIRC Ghosts find each other very easy to read, do they have some way of hiding themselves?

Also, it seems like the gaps between each number on the psi index are huge.
Seeing as how Nova is PI 10 and has the ability (even though it was activated by grief) blow up an entire block and kill hundreds of people, which I doubt your average Zealot can do.

Also, telekinesis, PI 8 or higher, do Zealots possess telekinesis? Why not pick up Zerglings and fling them towards yourself to slice it in half?

I'm curious as to the kinds of ranges between Terran psionics and general Toss psionics.

We know high templars are way out of league and probably would rank over 9000 so let's not include them in this discussion.

However, if your average ghost is around a PI of 5-7, would that make most Zealots a PI of 7? 7.5? We've no evidence suggesting they possess telekinesis.

Thoughts? Answers?

Zealots would probably be closer to PI 4, although they might well be higher if they weren't constantly maintaining their shield.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pandonetho

Alright, so we all know that your average ghost is run of the mill against your average Protoss (according to the DT saga).

---

Which is a biased source, actually, given that Zamara is arrogant. Ghosts are like terran high templar; the cream of the crop when it comes to psychic terrans (compared to, say, wranglers). Which of course means that (as terrans are weaker psychics) a ghost is no match for a high templar (except for random freaks like Nova, possibly) but maybe a ghost has more power than a zealot. Or not. There's no easy comparison because both rely heavily on technology.

Quote:

---

We know Terran technology is inferior to Protoss technology.

---

Generally yes. However, terrans put so much focus in combat technology; picture a siege tank compared to a reaver.

Quote:

---

A zealot could probably beat a ghost in a mind battle.

---

I doubt it. What psionic offense does a zealot have? What psionic offense does a ghost have? None. They can read each others' minds, and that's about it. There wouldn't be a mental battle. There's a reason the zealot and the ghost both have weapons.

Quote:

---

What do ghosts actually have that allow them to effectively take on missions against the Toss?

---

Cloaking. Guns. And from StarCraft: Ghost, a variety of explosives. Use a marine and siege tank attack on one side of the base to distract the protoss, sneak in, use some BE3 sticky grenades, and blow up their pylons.

Quote:

---

And how come they're not psionically detected by nearby Protoss?

---

And why can't ghosts sense dark templar? Ghosts detecting each other only appeared once in lore, although there have been several instances of psychics detecting each other. According to Arcturus Mengsk himself, a hydralisk can "sniff out" a ghost at very short range, about the same range they could detect them psionically. I get the impression that none of the species are attuned to each other, which lets a ghost sneak up on Muadun. (The flower did detect him, but only at very close range.) Basically, the Energy Radar ability, but at much shorter range; you know they're there (you can see the dot on the mini-map) but that's not good enough to target your opponent.

Quote:

---

IIRC Ghosts find each other very easy to read, do they have some way of hiding themselves?

---

Yes, but only at range. When Kerrigan fought that other ghost, even though she could "detect his presence" using psionics, she still had to use a make-shift detector to actually fight him.

Quote:

---

Also, it seems like the gaps between each number on the psi index are huge.
Seeing as how Nova is PI 10 and has the ability (even though it was activated by grief) blow up an entire block and kill hundreds of people, which I doubt your average Zealot can do.

---

I HATE THAT F**KING SCENE. It's so eye-catching that it causes people to forget what Nova's actual capabilities are. That was a once in a lifetime event caused by family betrayal. ARRRGHH!

When Nova kills Cliff Nadaner's movement in the epilogue, that is a true measure of Nova's power. She can kill a dozen people at once while leaving someone alive telepathically (yes, melting brains is telepathic) and can barely lift herself in a combat situation. That is miles away from blowing up a city block, k?

Quote:

---

Also, telekinesis, PI 8 or higher, do Zealots possess telekinesis? Why not pick up Zerglings and fling them towards yourself to slice it in half?

---

1) Being PI 8 doesn't necessarily mean you're telekinetic. It means you might have telekinesis.

2) The scale is for terrans only anyway. Even if protoss can be put on the scale (eg we measured Tassadar as a 15) that doesn't mean the rules are the same. A lower PI protoss might have telekinesis, maybe. Or maybe telekinesis is really rare among protoss, though given Artanis' brain scan in the Brood War loading screen, it seems that all protoss have the potential to be telekinetic. Please don't assume that makes the typical protoss a PI 8, as I said before, the rules may be different.

3) Zealots have only minimal psionic training. I doubt most zealots have anything like telekinesis or any other "external" ability, which is still, of course, far more psychic ability than the typical terran has (which is to say none).

I'm curious as to the kinds of ranges between Terran psionics and general Toss psionics.

We know high templars are way out of league and probably would rank over 9000 so let's not include them in this discussion.

Quote:

---

However, if your average ghost is around a PI of 5-7, would that make most Zealots a PI of 7? 7.5? We've no evidence suggesting they possess telekinesis.

---

The typical ghost is PI 5-6. Pretty much every important ghost in the setting has a higher PI though, which makes them seem more powerful than they really should be, even the "weak" Devon Starke. I think Gabriel Tosh might be the only ghost we've got a good look at who has a normal power level, and we don't really know anything about him yet.

As for zealots having a PI of less than PI 8, as said before, the rules might be different (and PI 8 doesn't automatically mean you're telekinetic). If the typical zealot had a PI of 9 (they don't, trust me on this) they might still not have telekinesis.

Do you think Zamara has ever encountered a ghost? Zealots don't need to have any more psionic power than a ghost. This is still dangerous; picture an army of (non-cloaking) ghosts. Thing is, our info on protoss is pretty limited and we do not know the typical power of a zealot. The only opportunity we had (Do No Harm) we weren't given a protoss PI, and the only protoss who were present were khalai (low PI, presumably) and a high templar (much higher than average PI, given how conductive his nerve cords were).

We were given no real info on them in Shadow of the Xel'Naga or Queen of Blades (despite so many opportunities, especially in the relatively better Queen of Blades) so we only had the Dark Templar Saga which, to be frank, was written by an author whose amazing degree of writing skill exceeded her knowledge of the setting. (Evidence: How could such a powerful ghost as Devon Starke be considered "useless" by Arcturus Mengsk?)

Frontline has actually given a bit more info; we were told Khastiana was a 5th-level Khala adept, but the scale probably isn't the same as a PI scale (she's clearly more powerful than the typical zealot, and is clearly more powerful than a ghost).

Have you ever seen Babylon 5? They have a P-scale that's basically the same (but it goes up to 12). They even have a PI 8 = telekinesis thing, only there it's P10. One of the most powerful psychics in the setting is Alfred Bester, P12 and jerkass villain. He does not have telekinesis, as that's uncommon, even for a P12. He is, however, an expert shot.

That's the main irony of Ghosts, they're soldiers valued for their telepathy despite the fact that they don't use it in combat. :P

I think I remember reading something about them being able to scramble or intercept orders from Protoss (it might have been from Shadow of the Xel'Naga, but don't quote me on this).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pandonetho

Also, telekinesis, PI 8 or higher, do Zealots possess telekinesis? Why not pick up Zerglings and fling them towards yourself to slice it in half?

---

Possibly. Kerrigan had very powerful telekinetic abilities (she could stop bullets right in their path), but it was still easier for her to slice up the opponents she could reach. I assume a Zealot wouldn't waste his time on telekinesis when it's easier just to gut the enemy with a Psi Blade.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MattII

Zealots would probably be closer to PI 4, although they might well be higher if they weren't constantly maintaining their shield.

---

No way Zealots are that weak. That would make them no more powerful than wranglers, and shields are maintained mechanically. Most ghosts fall into the range of PI 5 or 6, and Zealots are supposed to be better than most ghosts (supposedly).

So far we know that it takes a PI of somewhere less than 7.5 to create Psi Blades. I want to say that Gestalt Zero's khalai-grade version was a PI 6. And I want to say that most Zealots are ~6-7. But that's just guesswork. :P

I believe Zealots put their psionics more into martial practices such increasing their strength and speed, rather than fancy tricks that are more attributed to the greater High Templars. And as Gradius stated, while it is through conducive technology, psionic blades require the use of psionic ability.

The StarCraft 2 site:

Quote:

---

All protoss have some psionic power. Zealots focus their powers exclusively on the pursuit of war. Focus crystals in their heavy forearm units enable zealots to channel their strength of will into blades of pure psionic energy - their primary melee weapons. Using a limited form of precognition, zealots can even predict enemy movements, striking with deadly accuracy and dodging attacks by inches.

Some zealots have even developed the ability to turn their body into pure energy for a few microseconds. This allows them to move at lightning-fast speeds and strike suddenly against an enemy that thinks they are out of range.

---

From a superficial glance, one would assume Ghosts appear more powerful than a run-in-the-mill Protoss. But it just goes to show that psionic potential is more than just mind-reading and telekinesis. ;)

Ah, thanks for the insight Kimera, as always.

I think Zealots and Ghosts are probably analogous to Samurais and Ninjas.
A Zealot trains hard and focuses on war, battle, fighting skills etc. If a ghost confronted a Zealot, he would be less bulky (and not 3 meters tall) with slimmer armour and more agility/flexibility which a Zealot wouldn't have.

Quote:

---

That's the main irony of Ghosts, they're soldiers valued for their telepathy despite the fact that they don't use it in combat. :P

---

I could just be having illusions here, but don't ghosts use their psionic powers as well to power their (this is what I'm not sure about, muscle fiber suits or something, which augment their strength?) and to utilize their physical and cloaking capabilities.

Also, after some thought, I've come to the conclusion that while Zealots have the potential to become high templar (I mean, psionics doesn't just magically increase right? And every high templar started off as a noob before), they're so focused in the art of war that yeah, as some of you said, they don't hone in their psionic skills.

A Zealot has to be way higher than a PI 10, unless psionics develop (and increase) when undergoing training or something. Maybe I missed something and high templars are chosen to become high templars because of their especially high PI.

Quote:

---

Possibly. Kerrigan had very powerful telekinetic abilities (she could stop bullets right in their path), but it was still easier for her to slice up the opponents she could reach. I assume a Zealot wouldn't waste his time on telekinesis when it's easier just to gut the enemy with a Psi Blade.

---

I bet high templars do this as well. Maybe they can stop a tank shell from landing? lol

Quote:

---

So far we know that it takes a PI of somewhere less than 7.5 to create Psi Blades. I want to say that Gestalt Zero's khalai-grade version was a PI 6. And I want to say that most Zealots are ~6-7. But that's just guesswork.

---

What was Gestalt Zero's original PI?

lol, imagine, a Ghost with a PI of 10 affected by Terrazine gas THEN undergoing the process that Gestalt Zero underwent. That would be so IMBA it wouldn't even be funny.
Then he gets infested (like Kerrigan) and he'd rule the universe... although, the nerve cords might protect him from being infested but I'm not sure.

Anyway, now to reply back to some of what Kimera's massive post says...

Quote:

---

Which is a biased source, actually, given that Zamara is arrogant. Ghosts are like terran high templar; the cream of the crop when it comes to psychic terrans (compared to, say, wranglers). Which of course means that (as terrans are weaker psychics) a ghost is no match for a high templar (except for random freaks like Nova, possibly) but maybe a ghost has more power than a zealot. Or not. There's no easy comparison because both rely heavily on technology.

---

I agree with this.

Quote:

---

Generally yes. However, terrans put so much focus in combat technology; picture a siege tank compared to a reaver.

---

Yes, but the reaver was never meant to be a weapon, it was hastily thrown together (and quite effectively too) to be a weapon when war was upon the Protoss. The Terrans were always constantly at war with each other already so they've been designing weapons like mad.

Quote:

---

I HATE THAT F**KING SCENE. It's so eye-catching that it causes people to forget what Nova's actual capabilities are. That was a once in a lifetime event caused by family betrayal. ARRRGHH!

---

Hey man, it still meant that her psionics are insane.

Quote:

---

When Nova kills Cliff Nadaner's movement in the epilogue, that is a true measure of Nova's power. She can kill a dozen people at once while leaving someone alive telepathically (yes, melting brains is telepathic) and can barely lift herself in a combat situation. That is miles away from blowing up a city block, k?

---

Fine.

Quote:

---

I believe Zealots put their psionics more into martial practices such increasing their strength and speed, rather than fancy tricks that are more attributed to the greater High Templars. And as Gradius stated, while it is through conducive technology, psionic blades require the use of psionic ability.

---

Hm, what was the stated minimum requirement again for summoning psi blades?
All Zealots must be at least that PI. Although, as Kimera said, the scale was meant for Terrans and for all we know, both species use psionics completely differently with some similarities.

Quote:

---

From a superficial glance, one would assume Ghosts appear more powerful than a run-in-the-mill Protoss. But it just goes to show that psionic potential is more than just mind-reading and telekinesis.

---

Agreed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pandonetho

Alright, so we all know that your average ghost is run of the mill against your average Protoss (according to the DT saga).

---

Agreed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pandonetho

We know Terran technology is inferior to Protoss technology.

---

Also Agreed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pandonetho

A zealot could probably beat a ghost in a mind battle.

---

This is somewhat debatable as the Zealots are trained in physical combat, and use their psi-abilities to use their psiblades, whereas the Templar are the ones that actually use their mental abilities directly for combat. Differences in their brians might also make a difference, but I think that the Ghost would be better trained, where the Protoss would be more prepared to that sort of assault.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pandonetho

What do ghosts actually have that allow them to effectively take on missions against the Toss?
And how come they're not psionically detected by nearby Protoss?
IIRC Ghosts find each other very easy to read, do they have some way of hiding themselves?

---

Nova talks a little bit about hiding thoughts, as does Frontline Volume 3. Not to mention combat possible use of Psi-screens. This might also explain WHY they'd be effective against the Protoss, as the might be able to mask their presence, whereas normal humans would be more detectable mentally. That in addition to their elite combat training & suits that enhance their physical abilitites even more would make them effective against the Protoss.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pandonetho

Also, it seems like the gaps between each number on the psi index are huge.
Seeing as how Nova is PI 10 and has the ability (even though it was activated by grief) blow up an entire block and kill hundreds of people, which I doubt your average Zealot can do.

Also, telekinesis, PI 8 or higher, do Zealots possess telekinesis? Why not pick up Zerglings and fling them towards yourself to slice it in half?

---

Again - I think it's the difference between Templar & Zealot training. Also while a Terran with a PI of 8 could have telekinesis, a Protoss of the same PI has a different brain configuration & may not be telekinetic. (I'll post some more if I've got more time)


X :cool:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gradius

That's the main irony of Ghosts, they're soldiers valued for their telepathy despite the fact that they don't use it in combat. :P

---

Ghosts are valued for their psionic abilities more than telepathy. In fact, Confederate ghosts used to have their mind-reading powers limited by technology.

Quote:

---

I think I remember reading something about them being able to scramble or intercept orders from Protoss (it might have been from Shadow of the Xel'Naga, but don't quote me on this).

---

Um... what?

Quote:

---

Possibly. Kerrigan had very powerful telekinetic abilities (she could stop bullets right in their path), but it was still easier for her to slice up the opponents she could reach. I assume a Zealot wouldn't waste his time on telekinesis when it's easier just to gut the enemy with a Psi Blade.

---

Queen of Blades is a crappy source.

First of all, Infested Kerrigan was a stronger psychic than Sarah Kerrigan, even before she broke the ghost conditioning. Sarah Kerrigan's most badass psychic moment involved throwing someone against a wall and then exploding their brain. Second of all, in that book, Raynor is capable of deciding entire battles by shooting a scourge.

Pre-infested Kerrigan was never that powerful, and I suspect Infested Kerrigan didn't use more psionic abilities in that book due to a chronic author desire to avoid portraying psionic storm or anything similar to that.

Quote:

---

So far we know that it takes a PI of somewhere less than 7.5 to create Psi Blades. I want to say that Gestalt Zero's khalai-grade version was a PI 6. And I want to say that most Zealots are ~6-7. But that's just guesswork. :P

---

Nowhere does it say that psi-blades have a minimum PI rating (though they probably do). Still, they're designed to be used by protoss who are connected to the Khala*, which is something terrans can't do (except for Jake Ramsey, but he had a protoss in his head). I suspect Zero's psionic blade had to be different in some manner, and he only needed to power one anyway.

*Pylons power protoss tech at a distance (hence the psi = supply bit).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pandonetho

I could just be having illusions here, but don't ghosts use their psionic powers as well to power their (this is what I'm not sure about, muscle fiber suits or something, which augment their strength?) and to utilize their physical and cloaking capabilities.

---

That's all tech-based, however, so it's not a true measure of their power. A ghost can cloak for a time with technology. A Dark Templar can cloak all the time. Big difference there.

Quote:

---

Also, after some thought, I've come to the conclusion that while Zealots have the potential to become high templar (I mean, psionics doesn't just magically increase right? And every high templar started off as a noob before)

---

Why not?

Colin Phash increased his psionic power. Nova learned to kill people with her mind faster. And protoss don't have to follow the same rules as high templar.

Quote:

---

A Zealot has to be way higher than a PI 10, unless psionics develop (and increase) when undergoing training or something.

---

See above. And no, I strongly disagree that a zealot is anything like a PI 10. They've never demonstrated that kind of ability. Even Khastiana, who was more powerful psionically than most zealots, never demonstrated anything like that.

Quote:

---

Maybe I missed something and high templars are chosen to become high templars because of their especially high PI.

---

A zealot with a really high PI becoming a high templar... while that's not said so anywhere directly, that's very plausible.

Quote:

---

What was Gestalt Zero's original PI?

---

We were never told, but it's probably the same as a typical ghost's.

Quote:

---

lol, imagine, a Ghost with a PI of 10 affected by Terrazine gas THEN undergoing the process that Gestalt Zero underwent. That would be so IMBA it wouldn't even be funny.

---

That would be such a badass villain, the Ulrezaj of the terrans!

Quote:

---

Then he gets infested (like Kerrigan) and he'd rule the universe... although, the nerve cords might protect him from being infested but I'm not sure.

---

The Khala protects from infestation, so he could be infested, but why would Kerrigan want a rival like that?

Anyway, now to reply back to some of what Kimera's massive post says...

Quote:

---

Yes, but the reaver was never meant to be a weapon, it was hastily thrown together (and quite effectively too) to be a weapon when war was upon the Protoss. The Terrans were always constantly at war with each other already so they've been designing weapons like mad.

---

I still think siege tanks > colossi.

Quote:

---

Hey man, it still meant that her psionics are insane.

---

Bah! Dark Templar can generate uncontrolled psionic storms that are mega powerful, and no one ever uses that as part of an experiment. I thought we were talking about powers that are useful in war (eg can be controlled, can be used more than once, etc).

Quote:

---

Hm, what was the stated minimum requirement again for summoning psi blades?

---

We were never given one, and it's bound to be different between a protoss and a terran anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by XSOLDIER

This is somewhat debatable as the Zealots are trained in physical combat, and use their psi-abilities to use their psiblades, whereas the Templar are the ones that actually use their mental abilities directly for combat. Differences in their brians might also make a difference, but I think that the Ghost would be better trained, where the Protoss would be more prepared to that sort of assault.

---

As stated earlier, irrelevant. Neither are taught mental combat, with exceptions (eg Nova, Colin Phash, etc).

Quote:

---

Nova talks a little bit about hiding thoughts, as does Frontline Volume 3. Not to mention combat possible use of Psi-screens. This might also explain WHY they'd be effective against the Protoss, as the might be able to mask their presence, whereas normal humans would be more detectable mentally. That in addition to their elite combat training & suits that enhance their physical abilitites even more would make them effective against the Protoss.

---

Nova and Colin Phash are both above-average psychics, and Randall (someone who knows about telepaths) was surprised at Phash's ability. As for the protoss, if they follow the Khala, they find it difficult to hide thoughts, though I doubt it's impossible. Dark Templar, needless to say, have no trouble with this.

Quote:

---

Why not?

Colin Phash increased his psionic power. Nova learned to kill people with her mind faster. And protoss don't have to follow the same rules as high templar.

---

That would mean that with training, your PI goes up then.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pandonetho

That would mean that with training, your PI goes up then.

---

It could for some people. Also, the PI scale probably has a bit of leeway; perhaps you can raise your PI from PI 5.5 to PI 6 with training, but there's a "talent cap" that varies among individuals. (Babylon 5 is a much better developed setting and they had something like this; raising yourself to P5 was so hard about half of telepaths who tried burned out, and those who reached P5-6 couldn't get to P12 anyway, as they lacked the genetic talent for that.)

Nova went from being empathic (probably less than PI 3) to PI 10 in a matter of days, and that was without training.

What does the Psi Index measure, anyways? If it's raw power, i don't think a Ghost can be near a Zealot on it. The Zealot's blades and Shield are powered by the Protoss inside it. Protoss pilots also power their own ships.

If it's some kind of measure of the abilities he can "cast", then it could be. Zealots are just starting their psionic ascension, and it seems logical that such a longevous species won't haste training that much. Probably they reach adulthood later.

It would be very good, however, if Blizzard first settled the basic lore, before giving it to the writers, as that would make things run much smoother. In sc-fi you cannot fix things by saying that "a wizard did it", after all :D.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Norfindel

What does the Psi Index measure, anyways? If it's raw power, i don't think a Ghost can be near a Zealot on it. The Zealot's blades and Shield are powered by the Protoss inside it. Protoss pilots also power their own ships.

---

No they aren't, not entirely. All protoss tech is powered by both the protoss inside and the psionic matrix. Breaking that matrix (eg smashing all the pylons) should (in lore) power down some tech to some extent.

As for shields, that is definitely wrong. It explicitly said that very few protoss could create shields on their own, hence the shield generators.

Quote:

---

If it's some kind of measure of the abilities he can "cast", then it could be. Zealots are just starting their psionic ascension, and it seems logical that such a longevous species won't haste training that much. Probably they reach adulthood later.

---

Zealots are full grown. Artanis, at 262, is a young adult. Fenix was nearly 400 and still a zealot. That's just ... making stuff up.

Quote:

---

It would be very good, however, if Blizzard first settled the basic lore, before giving it to the writers, as that would make things run much smoother. In sc-fi you cannot fix things by saying that "a wizard did it", after all :D.

---

Sci-fi settings are always harder to write, and StarCraft has very little lore.

Quote:

---

Sci-fi settings are always harder to write, and StarCraft has very little lore.

---

Not too bad though, considering it started out as a 1998 RTS game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kimera757

Um... what?

---

I thought I read something somewhere about Ghosts being able to pick up Protoss orders (but I probably didn't). Not sure how much clearer I could have made that.

Quote:

---

Queen of Blades is a crappy source.

---

Blizzard said that basically everything they release is canonical, so as far as I'm concerned it's as good a source as any other book.

Quote:

---

First of all, Infested Kerrigan was a stronger psychic than Sarah Kerrigan, even before she broke the ghost conditioning....
Pre-infested Kerrigan was never that powerful

---

What does that have to do with my post? I never implied or said anything of the like.

Quote:

---

Second of all, in that book, Raynor is capable of deciding entire battles by shooting a scourge....

---

He shot an Overlord, not a Scourge. The Overlord then crushed an entire row of Scourge between itself and another Overlord.

Quote:

---

Nowhere does it say that psi-blades have a minimum PI rating (though they probably do).

---

Of course they do. You can't expect a non-psychic to channel psi-blades. Sure, there's a slim chance that there might not be a relationship between the two but since we know that Psi Blades are created by channeling psionic energy, we have to assume there's some kind of a direct relationship between PI and the ability to channel Psi Blades. It's really the only obvious conclusion at the moment.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Norfindel

What does the Psi Index measure, anyways?

---

"Psionic ability"

I take that to be raw power (without the use of tech ofc).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Norfindel

If it's some kind of measure of the abilities he can "cast", then it could be. Zealots are just starting their psionic ascension, and it seems logical that such a longevous species won't haste training that much. Probably they reach adulthood later.

---

Though the SC manual defines Zealots as "warriors who have yet to reach the upper levels of the Khala," that doesn't mean that all Zealots will eventually reach the upper levels of the Khala.

I wonder why the Protoss don't have a Ghost equivolent themselves (besides the Dark Templar, who aren't really like Ghosts because that's just the way they are).

High Templar can hover like we can walk, pretty sure they can make some pretty killer assassins.

Is it an honour thing? Pride? They see it as dirty and underhanded?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gradius

I thought I read something somewhere about Ghosts being able to pick up Protoss orders (but I probably didn't). Not sure how much clearer I could have made that.

---

In New Gettysburg, Kerrigan implied something like this. However, she's an exceptional ghost.

Quote:

---

Blizzard said that basically everything they release is canonical, so as far as I'm concerned it's as good a source as any other book.

---

In any event, Kerrigan was only doing that kind of stuff post-infestation.

Quote:

---

He shot an Overlord, not a Scourge. The Overlord then crushed an entire row of Scourge between itself and another Overlord.

---

Still crazy impossible.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pandonetho

I wonder why the Protoss don't have a Ghost equivolent themselves (besides the Dark Templar, who aren't really like Ghosts because that's just the way they are).

---

The protoss didn't bother learning to cloak, in part because they were always connected to the Khala, so it wasn't as effective. Dark Templar, who aren't connected to the Khala, the Tal'darim (same) and the protoss from the Aeon of Strife could do this this (in the latter case, they had to hide behind bushes and stuff, but could still hide their thoughts).

ITT: Speculation.

Well, this phrase don't even talks about Zealots, they compare Ghosts with a generic Protoss, directly:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shadow Hunters

And from all accounts, even the most gifted, most finely trained human telepaths were pitiful compared to an ordinary, run-of-the-mill protoss.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kimera757

No they aren't, not entirely. All protoss tech is powered by both the protoss inside and the psionic matrix. Breaking that matrix (eg smashing all the pylons) should (in lore) power down some tech to some extent.

---

That's true, they receive energy from the psi matrix, but the don't need to be within Pylon range to work. I think they receive the energy directly to their suits, and the Pylons power the buildings, which require lots more energy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kimera757

As for shields, that is definitely wrong. It explicitly said that very few protoss could create shields on their own, hence the shield generators.

---

However, the suits aids the Zealots to form the Blades and Shield. The suits don't just create everything by themselves:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by battle.net/scc

The power suits worn by Zealots enhance and channel their already formidable Psionic abilities, allowing them to form a protective shield around themselves and project massive energy blades from their forearms.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kimera757

Zealots are full grown. Artanis, at 262, is a young adult. Fenix was nearly 400 and still a zealot. That's just ... making stuff up.

---

Of course they are, but they are just starting the path of Khala. I said it, because it would made sense for them to not have learned a lot of tricks, yet.

Quote:

---

As for shields, that is definitely wrong. It explicitly said that very few protoss could create shields on their own, hence the shield generators.

---

The only lore I remember concerning this topic is from the StarCraft manual, where it is stated that warriors replicated the feat in psi-induced automatons. However, I cannot remember the exact context. It may be that very few Protoss knew how to channel their energy into a protective barrier and simply need to be taught; though it is clear the psionic matrix and psi-induced technology help.

Quote:

---

I thought I read something somewhere about Ghosts being able to pick up Protoss orders (but I probably didn't).

---

What Kimera said. Kerrigan implied she could. Despite being an "exceptional Ghost", however, she still couldn't quite understand how she knew.

Other Ghosts likely could detect a similar "flavor" in the psychic messages floating between Protoss, at least picking up on the animosity and hostile intent.

Quote:

---

Nowhere does it say that psi-blades have a minimum PI rating (though they probably do).

---

This is true. However, there is likely a minimum level. We don't know how the Psi Index works, but it likely takes several different factors into consideration, including raw psionic potential. Ghost minimum requirements start at PI 5; Gestalt Zero manifested blades at PI 7. That provides a rough range for ya.

It was mentioned before about how infested Kerrigan is far stronger than Sarah Kerrigan. It made me think about the mental conditioning of ghosts and their neural inhibitors.

Most, if not all, of the Terran ghosts that you're taking into account in this discussion are being held back from their full power by inhibitors. When Nova had her outburst that killed so many people, that was a reflection of her true potential. I believe:

Normal human < Khalai Protoss < Zealots < avg. Ghosts < HT/DT/powerful Ghosts

I think that the most powerful of ghosts, those reaching PI 10 have as much power as High or Dark Templar. However, because the Terrans have still yet to evolve, even average ghosts are incapable of controlling their power without inhibitors, like the Protoss are able to. Although the ghosts are held back from their full power, I still think they have as much potential as Zealots or the higher Templar warriors.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zero

Normal human < Khalai Protoss < Zealots < avg. Ghosts < HT/DT/powerful Ghosts

I think that the most powerful of ghosts, those reaching PI 10 have as much power as High or Dark Templar. However, because the Terrans have still yet to evolve, even average ghosts are incapable of controlling their power without inhibitors, like the Protoss are able to. Although the ghosts are held back from their full power, I still think they have as much potential as Zealots or the higher Templar warriors.

---

That can't be right. Most ghosts are only PI 5-6, and even without inhibitors they're still weak compared to Protoss. Nova was practically the messiah of the Terrans. She can barely lift her body up a chute (something she says she would never do in battle). Compare this to High Templar floating casually on the battlefields.

It's more like:

Normal human < avg. Ghosts < Khalai Protoss < Zealots < strong ghosts (PI 7) < Nova and Dark Templar < High Templar.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zero

It was mentioned before about how infested Kerrigan is far stronger than Sarah Kerrigan. It made me think about the mental conditioning of ghosts and their neural inhibitors.

---

This is interesting because we don't know whether the Queen of Blades simply manifests Kerrigan's innate potential, or expands upon it. If the former, then PI10 ranks a Ghost at harboring more innate potential than even the most powerful Protoss warriors yet born. I can't help but disagree with this; but the Psi Index is a new concept to the StarCraft universe and lacks definition. Moreover, the Zerg instinctively supercharge the evolution of the creatures they assimilate, so this would explain Kerrigan's prodigious psychic strength.

It's also mentioned above that Ghosts are nothing compared to an average Protoss warrior.

If I may submit my own line of progression of psychic power:

Avg. Terran / PI 1 < avg Ghost / PI 5 < Khalai < Judicator < Templar / PI 7 / Gestalt Zero < (Nova / Sarah Kerrigan / Dark Templar / PI10) < High Templar < Queen of Blades


Nova and Kerrigan and Dark Templar are guestimations because we have no evidence of either of these terrans unleashing their raw psionic potential on a Protoss. At least not that I've seen.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gradius

That can't be right. Most ghosts are only PI 5-6, and even without inhibitors they're still weak compared to Protoss. Nova was practically the messiah of the Terrans. She can barely lift her body up a chute (something she says she would never do in battle). Compare this to High Templar floating casually on the battlefields.

It's more like:

Normal human < avg. Ghosts < Khalai Protoss < Zealots < strong ghosts (PI 7) < Nova and Dark Templar < High Templar.

---

I won't argue with your list or VoK's, but how do we know that ghost without inhibitors are still weak compared to Protoss? I haven't read Uprising, I Mengsk or the Frontline books yet, but nothing else I've come across has gone into detail about ghosts without inihibitors, except Nova, although she is far stronger than the average ghost.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zero

Most, if not all, of the Terran ghosts that you're taking into account in this discussion are being held back from their full power by inhibitors. When Nova had her outburst that killed so many people, that was a reflection of her true potential.

---

I disagree on both counts. Most ghosts that we know of joined the program after Kerrigan did. They often get mind wipes instead, and even Devon Starke (who was old enough to get an inhibitor) had it removed before we "met" him.

Nova's outburst isn't a good reflection of her power, as it couldn't be controlled. When she killed Cliff Nadaner, her head had not been messed with, and she had not been "nerfed" yet. (And the nerf is just a mindwipe, not a power blocker.)

About the Zealots, i think than the first thing they must learn, is how to control and keep their innate abilities under check, because of this:

Quote:

---

The Protoss are such powerful psychics that they can inadvertently send out psychic "ripples" that are disruptive to other life forms. With careful training, High Templar learn to focus these ripples into a Storm of raw psychic energy that is capable of literally tearing apart the minds of lesser species.

---

Without the discipline of the Khala, the first "Dark Templars" disciples of Adun couldn't control their powers, and sent Psi Storms everywhere.

It's possible that the Zealots use limited psi in battle, as to not cause any damage to unintended targets (like it's own comrades!).

Anyways, this piece of lore is confusing, as if it would only affect "lesser species", they would generally have no reason to keep their powers in check during a battle, unless they really worry about local fauna :p.

Even more, a lot of Zealots can turn their whole bodies into pure energy for an instant, or use some limited form of precognition, and i think no Ghost can do that, so the quote from Shadow Hunters should apply. The phrase is difficult to misinterpret: best trained and gifted human telepath < run-of-the-mill Protoss.

Quote:

---

Even more, a lot of Zealots can turn their whole bodies into pure energy for an instant, or use some limited form of precognition, and i think no Ghost can do that, so the quote from Shadow Hunters should apply. The phrase is difficult to misinterpret: best trained and gifted human telepath < run-of-the-mill Protoss.

---

I think the abilities generated by psionic ability are tentative to the person that has the psionic powers.

Kerrigan pre infestation had some sort of connection with the Zerg, I doubt Zealots have that. Devon Starke is special in his own way too, I doubt Zealots are special the same way he is. Nova is just... a powerhouse of psionic power.

We don't know what Tosh will be capable of either.

I think you guys are all focusing too much on psionic strength alone. Much like a smaller, weaker fighter can overcome a much larger and stronger opponent through speed and agility, the same concept applies to Ghosts versus the much more psionically gifted Protoss. What they lack in psionic powers, they make up for by being Terran. They're genetically engineered to be sneaky, cunning bastards adept at adapting and turning the enemies' strength against them thanks to millions of years of natural selection.

This is actually the Terrans' one true advantage. Both, the Zerg and Protoss were modified by the Xel'Naga. As far as we know, the Protoss have always been the dominant species of their planet and never had to adapt to their surroundings or overcome competitors. The Zerg, on the other hand, have directed evolution; i.e. they evolve what they want/need, which again means they never had to compete to produce the best of the best.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Norfindel

Well, this phrase don't even talks about Zealots, they compare Ghosts with a generic Protoss, directly:

---

That was already brought up, and as noted it came from a biased source; iirc either Zamara or Valerian had said that, and neither are really in a position to comment on such matters with total authority.

Anyways, I believe people are overstating just how effective Ghosts are in general. Remember, a bunch of normal people were able to sneak into the Ghost Academy and cause all sorts of mayhem in Uprising. Hell, in his last stand Forest Keel was surrounded by five Ghosts, and they couldn't do anything to stop him from shooting the reactor and blowing the whole thing to kingdom come. What Kerrigan and Nova can do (especially the freak-of-nature Nova) are the exceptions to the rule, not the norm. Even the wank-tastic "blow up a city block" mental bomb Nova unleashed was something that knocked her out and erased parts of her memory; if she could do it again, it would be MAD on the battlefield.

Nor have I seen anything to really give the impression that a Ghost could go one-on-one against a Zealot. The only possible example was the test-tube freak from Do No Harm, but the only time he actually faced a Templar in combat, the 'toss had been weakened from confinement and torture (sneaking up and knocking him out doesn't count), and that was after alterations that made him superior to a normal Ghost. If a Ghost ever did take out a Zealot one-on-one, it'd probably be because he was invisible and sniped him from far away/laid explosives beforehand/etc.

I've not read Nova's book, but from the way you people talk it sounds as though her abilities exceed even Sarah Kerrigan's. Is that true? o_O

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Visions of Khas

I've not read Nova's book, but from the way you people talk it sounds as though her abilities exceed even Sarah Kerrigan's. Is that true? o_O

---

For a lore buff, you sure skimp on the books.

Nova once blew up a city block. Pay that no attention, that's a once in a lifetime event, sort of like how Dark Templar can accidentally create psionic storms.

Nova can kill a dozen people in a relatively small AoE pretty quickly, which is much more impressive because she can do that every day, and probably every minute. She had enough telekinesis to lift herself in a non-combat situation. Note that, after Kerrigan escaped (before Nova entered the Ghost Program), ghosts stopped being implanted with neural inhibitors. Older ghosts (like Devon Starke) still had them. I don't know why Gestalt Zero used one.

As a child (Hybrid, Uprising) Kerrigan accidentally unleashed her telepathy, killing her mother and inflicting brain damage on her father. She was also able to telekinetically disable a gun. They applied her neural inhibitor after that.

In Uprising, Kerrigan could telepathically direct creep and larvae. Kerrigan's neural inhibitor was removed and she had the power to throw an opponent against the wall with telekinesis, then slowly melt his brain.

In Liberty's Crusade, Kerrigan kicks a lot of @ss without openly using psionics. She was strong enough to shove a rifle through a goliath's windshield and break someone's neck with one kick, throw corpses around like rag dolls and killed a roomful of soldiers. Presumably she was using her suit's enhancements.

In Queen of Blades, post-infestation, Infested Kerrigan is probably stronger than Nova telekinetically, but could only kill one person at a time mentally. (She never use psionic storm or personal equivalent. Boo urns!) She never actually engaged Tassadar in a psychic contest, despite fighting him face to face at least twice. (Tassadar was basically a super-zealot rather than a high templar there. Grr...)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lupino

If a Ghost ever did take out a Zealot one-on-one, it'd probably be because he was invisible and sniped him from far away/laid explosives beforehand/etc.

---

That's exactly what a ghost would do. Doesn't that answer the thread already?

Quote:

---

For a lore buff, you sure skimp on the books.

---

Money. I bought the last Dark Templar saga book -- then returned it the next day to refund my money.


Good book, though.

EDIT:

Quote:

---

She never actually engaged Tassadar in a psychic contest, despite fighting him face to face at least twice. (Tassadar was basically a super-zealot rather than a high templar there. Grr...)

---

Okay, I read the good parts from Queen of Blades. That was a while back, but I was under the impression there was a contest of wills between the two, complete with images overlayed other images, where everything happened simultaneously -- and nothing happened at all.... yeah. Kerrigan got the upper hand in each scenario. This doesn't count as a psychic contest?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Visions of Khas

Money. I bought the last Dark Templar saga book -- then returned it the next day to refund my money.

---

Not funding Blizzard lore? Traitor!

Quote:

---

Okay, I read the good parts from Queen of Blades. That was a while back, but I was under the impression there was a contest of wills between the two, complete with images overlayed other images, where everything happened simultaneously -- and nothing happened at all.... yeah. Kerrigan got the upper hand in each scenario. This doesn't count as a psychic contest?

---

It was all told from the point of view from non-psychic Raynor. I assumed they were simply fighting too fast for him to see.

And I'm surprised Kerrigan could outpower Tassadar. Yeah she could kick his ass in hand-to-hand combat, but she's a former assassin, you'd expect that.

Dude, the most retarded part of that book was when she singlehandedly fought both Tassadar AND Zeratul.

WHAT THE HELL?!

Yeah I just assumed that they were fighting too fast for Raynor to see. Similar to the manner that Zeratul moved so fast that one moment he was there and one moment he wasn't.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pandonetho

Dude, the most retarded part of that book was when she singlehandedly fought both Tassadar AND Zeratul.

WHAT THE HELL?!

---

I've chalked it up to the fact that none of the Protoss in that novel had shields. In fact, the author led me to believe that Tassadar & Zeratul were basically fighting naked apart from a loincloth over their groin.

In game terms, Kerrigan has 400 hp, Tassadar had 80 and Zeratul had 60. So it's no surprise they lost. In the novel, Zeratul actually stabbed her first in their solo fight (which would have killed anyone else, but she has 400 hp). <_<

HP doesn't have to mean that the character is resistant to damage. It could be raised to reflect things as capacity to dodge. I don't expect Kerrigan to be as resistant as an Ultralisk in SC. If they can do that, why don't they just make any unit of that size as resistant?

In fact, Kerrigan shouldn't be fighting hand to hand, when she has millions of minions.

But Kerrigan was portrayed as a crazy idiot in Queen of Blades, worse than in Episode II. (Kerrigan did crazy/dumb stuff there, but not retarded stuff.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kimera757

That's exactly what a ghost would do. Doesn't that answer the thread already?

---

Not the way in which people were treating the question, what with trying to compare Ghost psionic abilities to Protoss and all that. In which case it isn't the Ghost per se that is beating the Zealot, but his tech, which you could give to any poor schlum to increase their chance of standing up to one.

mmmm.... now that i think about it, don't Ghosts suffer from "psi feedback" when in near presence of another Ghost? Aren't low-level psychics used by the dominion to detect and hunt psi-capable Terrans?

That means that Ghosts always must act with long range attacks if there is another psi user near the target, so definitely the only possible response is that they shoot people from a distance, as there won't be any chance that a Ghost isn't detected if he's near another psi user, and all Protoss are psi users.

I also wonder how useful is the limited precognition to avoid being shot by a sniper.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Norfindel

mmmm.... now that i think about it, don't Ghosts suffer from "psi feedback" when in near presence of another Ghost?

---

When a ghost is near another ghost, both can vaguely detect each other's psionic powers and thoughts.

Quote:

---

Aren't low-level psychics used by the dominion to detect and hunt psi-capable Terrans?

---

Yes. However, the sensing is unreliable, even with equipment. Zerg do it much better, and even they can't detect a PI 5-6 specimen from far away. (Colin Phash must be beyond PI 6, given his zergling-brain-exploding abilities.)

Quote:

---

That means that Ghosts always must act with long range attacks if there is another psi user near the target, so definitely the only possible response is that they shoot people from a distance, as there won't be any chance that a Ghost isn't detected if he's near another psi user, and all Protoss are psi users.

---

That's about right. However, shooting someone from far away, especially when they're 9 feet tall and vicious blade users, is just common sense anyway.

Quote:

---

I also wonder how useful is the limited precognition to avoid being shot by a sniper.

---

I figure it's unreliable, in that it sometimes works, and sometimes doesn't. We saw Khastiana use it to avoid being hit by a Dark Templar, but she'd been hit by the same Dark Templar in the same practice match.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lupino

Not the way in which people were treating the question, what with trying to compare Ghost psionic abilities to Protoss and all that.

---

It's a weird thread title then. Ghosts don't engage in psychic battles, neither do zealots (or most protoss). Both have to use their weapons and training.

If Ghosts can be detected by other psionic creatures (all Protoss), then how do they do infiltration missions? It's not like you can just go right into a base without seeing any Protoss.