What is it about Ghosts that actually let them stand a chance against the Toss?

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Originally Posted by Zero

Normal human < Khalai Protoss < Zealots < avg. Ghosts < HT/DT/powerful Ghosts

I think that the most powerful of ghosts, those reaching PI 10 have as much power as High or Dark Templar. However, because the Terrans have still yet to evolve, even average ghosts are incapable of controlling their power without inhibitors, like the Protoss are able to. Although the ghosts are held back from their full power, I still think they have as much potential as Zealots or the higher Templar warriors.

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That can't be right. Most ghosts are only PI 5-6, and even without inhibitors they're still weak compared to Protoss. Nova was practically the messiah of the Terrans. She can barely lift her body up a chute (something she says she would never do in battle). Compare this to High Templar floating casually on the battlefields.

It's more like:

Normal human < avg. Ghosts < Khalai Protoss < Zealots < strong ghosts (PI 7) < Nova and Dark Templar < High Templar.

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Originally Posted by Zero

It was mentioned before about how infested Kerrigan is far stronger than Sarah Kerrigan. It made me think about the mental conditioning of ghosts and their neural inhibitors.

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This is interesting because we don't know whether the Queen of Blades simply manifests Kerrigan's innate potential, or expands upon it. If the former, then PI10 ranks a Ghost at harboring more innate potential than even the most powerful Protoss warriors yet born. I can't help but disagree with this; but the Psi Index is a new concept to the StarCraft universe and lacks definition. Moreover, the Zerg instinctively supercharge the evolution of the creatures they assimilate, so this would explain Kerrigan's prodigious psychic strength.

It's also mentioned above that Ghosts are nothing compared to an average Protoss warrior.

If I may submit my own line of progression of psychic power:

Avg. Terran / PI 1 < avg Ghost / PI 5 < Khalai < Judicator < Templar / PI 7 / Gestalt Zero < (Nova / Sarah Kerrigan / Dark Templar / PI10) < High Templar < Queen of Blades


Nova and Kerrigan and Dark Templar are guestimations because we have no evidence of either of these terrans unleashing their raw psionic potential on a Protoss. At least not that I've seen.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

That can't be right. Most ghosts are only PI 5-6, and even without inhibitors they're still weak compared to Protoss. Nova was practically the messiah of the Terrans. She can barely lift her body up a chute (something she says she would never do in battle). Compare this to High Templar floating casually on the battlefields.

It's more like:

Normal human < avg. Ghosts < Khalai Protoss < Zealots < strong ghosts (PI 7) < Nova and Dark Templar < High Templar.

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I won't argue with your list or VoK's, but how do we know that ghost without inhibitors are still weak compared to Protoss? I haven't read Uprising, I Mengsk or the Frontline books yet, but nothing else I've come across has gone into detail about ghosts without inihibitors, except Nova, although she is far stronger than the average ghost.

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Originally Posted by Zero

Most, if not all, of the Terran ghosts that you're taking into account in this discussion are being held back from their full power by inhibitors. When Nova had her outburst that killed so many people, that was a reflection of her true potential.

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I disagree on both counts. Most ghosts that we know of joined the program after Kerrigan did. They often get mind wipes instead, and even Devon Starke (who was old enough to get an inhibitor) had it removed before we "met" him.

Nova's outburst isn't a good reflection of her power, as it couldn't be controlled. When she killed Cliff Nadaner, her head had not been messed with, and she had not been "nerfed" yet. (And the nerf is just a mindwipe, not a power blocker.)

About the Zealots, i think than the first thing they must learn, is how to control and keep their innate abilities under check, because of this:

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The Protoss are such powerful psychics that they can inadvertently send out psychic "ripples" that are disruptive to other life forms. With careful training, High Templar learn to focus these ripples into a Storm of raw psychic energy that is capable of literally tearing apart the minds of lesser species.

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Without the discipline of the Khala, the first "Dark Templars" disciples of Adun couldn't control their powers, and sent Psi Storms everywhere.

It's possible that the Zealots use limited psi in battle, as to not cause any damage to unintended targets (like it's own comrades!).

Anyways, this piece of lore is confusing, as if it would only affect "lesser species", they would generally have no reason to keep their powers in check during a battle, unless they really worry about local fauna :p.

Even more, a lot of Zealots can turn their whole bodies into pure energy for an instant, or use some limited form of precognition, and i think no Ghost can do that, so the quote from Shadow Hunters should apply. The phrase is difficult to misinterpret: best trained and gifted human telepath < run-of-the-mill Protoss.

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Even more, a lot of Zealots can turn their whole bodies into pure energy for an instant, or use some limited form of precognition, and i think no Ghost can do that, so the quote from Shadow Hunters should apply. The phrase is difficult to misinterpret: best trained and gifted human telepath < run-of-the-mill Protoss.

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I think the abilities generated by psionic ability are tentative to the person that has the psionic powers.

Kerrigan pre infestation had some sort of connection with the Zerg, I doubt Zealots have that. Devon Starke is special in his own way too, I doubt Zealots are special the same way he is. Nova is just... a powerhouse of psionic power.

We don't know what Tosh will be capable of either.

I think you guys are all focusing too much on psionic strength alone. Much like a smaller, weaker fighter can overcome a much larger and stronger opponent through speed and agility, the same concept applies to Ghosts versus the much more psionically gifted Protoss. What they lack in psionic powers, they make up for by being Terran. They're genetically engineered to be sneaky, cunning bastards adept at adapting and turning the enemies' strength against them thanks to millions of years of natural selection.

This is actually the Terrans' one true advantage. Both, the Zerg and Protoss were modified by the Xel'Naga. As far as we know, the Protoss have always been the dominant species of their planet and never had to adapt to their surroundings or overcome competitors. The Zerg, on the other hand, have directed evolution; i.e. they evolve what they want/need, which again means they never had to compete to produce the best of the best.

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Originally Posted by Norfindel

Well, this phrase don't even talks about Zealots, they compare Ghosts with a generic Protoss, directly:

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That was already brought up, and as noted it came from a biased source; iirc either Zamara or Valerian had said that, and neither are really in a position to comment on such matters with total authority.

Anyways, I believe people are overstating just how effective Ghosts are in general. Remember, a bunch of normal people were able to sneak into the Ghost Academy and cause all sorts of mayhem in Uprising. Hell, in his last stand Forest Keel was surrounded by five Ghosts, and they couldn't do anything to stop him from shooting the reactor and blowing the whole thing to kingdom come. What Kerrigan and Nova can do (especially the freak-of-nature Nova) are the exceptions to the rule, not the norm. Even the wank-tastic "blow up a city block" mental bomb Nova unleashed was something that knocked her out and erased parts of her memory; if she could do it again, it would be MAD on the battlefield.

Nor have I seen anything to really give the impression that a Ghost could go one-on-one against a Zealot. The only possible example was the test-tube freak from Do No Harm, but the only time he actually faced a Templar in combat, the 'toss had been weakened from confinement and torture (sneaking up and knocking him out doesn't count), and that was after alterations that made him superior to a normal Ghost. If a Ghost ever did take out a Zealot one-on-one, it'd probably be because he was invisible and sniped him from far away/laid explosives beforehand/etc.

I've not read Nova's book, but from the way you people talk it sounds as though her abilities exceed even Sarah Kerrigan's. Is that true? o_O

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Originally Posted by Visions of Khas

I've not read Nova's book, but from the way you people talk it sounds as though her abilities exceed even Sarah Kerrigan's. Is that true? o_O

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For a lore buff, you sure skimp on the books.

Nova once blew up a city block. Pay that no attention, that's a once in a lifetime event, sort of like how Dark Templar can accidentally create psionic storms.

Nova can kill a dozen people in a relatively small AoE pretty quickly, which is much more impressive because she can do that every day, and probably every minute. She had enough telekinesis to lift herself in a non-combat situation. Note that, after Kerrigan escaped (before Nova entered the Ghost Program), ghosts stopped being implanted with neural inhibitors. Older ghosts (like Devon Starke) still had them. I don't know why Gestalt Zero used one.

As a child (Hybrid, Uprising) Kerrigan accidentally unleashed her telepathy, killing her mother and inflicting brain damage on her father. She was also able to telekinetically disable a gun. They applied her neural inhibitor after that.

In Uprising, Kerrigan could telepathically direct creep and larvae. Kerrigan's neural inhibitor was removed and she had the power to throw an opponent against the wall with telekinesis, then slowly melt his brain.

In Liberty's Crusade, Kerrigan kicks a lot of @ss without openly using psionics. She was strong enough to shove a rifle through a goliath's windshield and break someone's neck with one kick, throw corpses around like rag dolls and killed a roomful of soldiers. Presumably she was using her suit's enhancements.

In Queen of Blades, post-infestation, Infested Kerrigan is probably stronger than Nova telekinetically, but could only kill one person at a time mentally. (She never use psionic storm or personal equivalent. Boo urns!) She never actually engaged Tassadar in a psychic contest, despite fighting him face to face at least twice. (Tassadar was basically a super-zealot rather than a high templar there. Grr...)

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Originally Posted by Lupino

If a Ghost ever did take out a Zealot one-on-one, it'd probably be because he was invisible and sniped him from far away/laid explosives beforehand/etc.

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That's exactly what a ghost would do. Doesn't that answer the thread already?