Kerrigan and Zeratul's Encounter: Method Behind Madness?

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Except for the Xel'Naga and Hansons theories.

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What do you mean?

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The artifact destroys everything that is Zerg, including infestation. That's enough precedent for the writers.

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Is it safe to speculate that infestation always = evil and that the artifact wipes that away too? The writers might just say that Kerrigan turned 'evil' the instant she realised Mengsk and Raynor abandoned her at New Gettysberg and that the infestation did nothing but just turn her into a pawn with advanced Zergy powers.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

A special case which had a precedent in that the whole nature of the Zerg explains that infestation generally turns you into a killing machine (a bad person). The artifact has no such precedent and even if it did, is it not just re-treading your aforementioned example? Besides, oversimplifying evil takes away from its menace if it can be turned off like a switch - "bad goes on, bad goes off".

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Not really. If she was turned evil because of infestation, it's obvious she will return to normal after been de-infested, and makes perfect sense.

I don't buy the "it was her own personality" idea, because she could had been a serial killer before if she wanted. Instead, she stick with Mengsk even to the point it was nearly suicide to follow his orders, because she owe him.

I also wonder what happened to the cerebrate that was interconnected with Kerrigan. Our PoV cerebrate in Vanilla.

The Overmind said, if Kerrigan died, the cerebrate (you) will also die. And now that she's been somehow changed by the Artifact, what of the cerebrate?

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Originally Posted by GnaReffotsirk

I also wonder what happened to the cerebrate that was interconnected with Kerrigan. Our PoV cerebrate in Vanilla.

The Overmind said, if Kerrigan died, the cerebrate (you) will also die. And now that she's been somehow changed by the Artifact, what of the cerebrate?

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Tassadar killed that one shortly before Artanis and Aldaris rescued them from Char.

All the cerebrates died after Brood War anyway.

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Originally Posted by Norfindel

Not really. If she was turned evil because of infestation, it's obvious she will return to normal after been de-infested, and makes perfect sense.

I don't buy the "it was her own personality" idea, because she could had been a serial killer before if she wanted. Instead, she stick with Mengsk even to the point it was nearly suicide to follow his orders, because she owe him.

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It's a fair enough assumption to take if you think infestation was the direct cause of turning her evil. I don't think so. It's like saying people who play violent games will cause violence in real-life.

Kerrigan was a serial killer before she was infested - she was a Dominion Ghost before becoming an 'executioner' (which she was often called on I believe according to the manual) for Mengsk. I'm not sure if I said this before, but it takes a certain 'mind' to be able to do these things. She's always had a "dark side" but never had a reason to unleash it.

I tend to think that her betrayal by Mengsk was that reason. I've always thought Kerrigan as someone who doesn't really hold life sacred specifically, but holds strongly to certain ideals such as loyalty and trust. When the last of this was stripped away by Mengsks betrayal, she may have turned 'evil' right there and then. It just so happened that the Zerg did not want to kill her. The Overmind said that (paraphrasing) "the greatness of her spirit was left to her". Now that she was "free" from her ideals after her betrayal, she was now also gifted with the power to do something about it.

I don't know about anyone else, but I find this sort of development more satisfying because it gives the character a sense of responsibility rather than being mere playthings from outside forces.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

It's a fair enough assumption to take if you think infestation was the direct cause of turning her evil. I don't think so. It's like saying people who play violent games will cause violence in real-life.

Kerrigan was a serial killer before she was infested - she was a Dominion Ghost before becoming an 'executioner' (which she was often called on I believe according to the manual) for Mengsk. I'm not sure if I said this before, but it takes a certain 'mind' to be able to do these things. She's always had a "dark side" but never had a reason to unleash it.

I tend to think that her betrayal by Mengsk was that reason. I've always thought Kerrigan as someone who doesn't really hold life sacred specifically, but holds strongly to certain ideals such as loyalty and trust. When the last of this was stripped away by Mengsks betrayal, she may have turned 'evil' right there and then. It just so happened that the Zerg did not want to kill her. The Overmind said that (paraphrasing) "the greatness of her spirit was left to her". Now that she was "free" from her ideals after her betrayal, she was now also gifted with the power to do something about it.

I don't know about anyone else, but I find this sort of development more satisfying because it gives the character a sense of responsibility rather than being mere playthings from outside forces.

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That's not a serial killer, that's an assasin. It's not more of a serial killer than an army sniper, or hell, any soldier.

If she had chosen her path like that, the character would be completely depleted by now. She would be an enemy, without hope of redemption or forgiveness, her only possible destiny been death, or continue to be the evil leader of the Swarm, without any possibility of further development. We already had the Overmind in that place, but at least it was an alien, convincing, fear-inspiring, cold-calculating, intelligent enemy.

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Originally Posted by Norfindel

That's not a serial killer, that's an assasin. It's not more of a serial killer than an army sniper, or hell, any soldier.

If she had chosen her path like that, the character would be completely depleted by now. She would be an enemy, without hope of redemption or forgiveness, her only possible destiny been death, or continue to be the evil leader of the Swarm, without any possibility of further development. We already had the Overmind in that place, but at least it was an alien, convincing, fear-inspiring, cold-calculating, intelligent enemy.

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I'm not sure that "she magically got worse" is any more conductive to actual redemption or forgiveness arcs. What you get instead is "she magically got better." Come HOTS, expect Raynor to get pissed over nothing at all, and us to feel like he's being stupid because we know she's cured but he won't trust her. You heard it here first.

While I agree that Kerrigan being a "serial killer" may be a bit of a stretch, Turalyon's main point is that, magical corruption or not, it made sense for Kerrigan to become a very angry person at that point in time in her character development. The magical corruption was just an excuse to go overboard, so that instead of just beating up the next guy she saw, she could wipe out a few galaxies. Then comes WOL to say, "If it made sense, that was pure coincidence. It was just magic."

I didn't meant "serial killer" is the strictest sense. It was just a figure of speech to try and illustrate that she's got a very dark heart in there already.

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Originally Posted by pure.Wasted

While I agree that Kerrigan being a "serial killer" may be a bit of a stretch, Turalyon's main point is that, magical corruption or not, it made sense for Kerrigan to become a very angry person at that point in time in her character development. The magical corruption was just an excuse to go overboard, so that instead of just beating up the next guy she saw, she could wipe out a few galaxies. Then comes WOL to say, "If it made sense, that was pure coincidence. It was just magic."

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Thanks for the clarification of my idea Wasted.

I believe that Kerrigan became incapable of empathy and compassion upon becoming a Zerg (unless on a very vestigial level). Since the Zerg have no concept of or use for either. Her capability for agression was however preserved (if not amplified) and her last moments as a human were far from conductive for a friendly and serene outlook upon her re-emergence into the Swarm (I would imagine that quite a strong imprint of those memories carried over through the process of her incubation in the chrysalis). So as far as I am concerned Kerrigan is one personality and the whole idea of split identities is hackneyed and clumsy and takes out much of the impact and tragedy from BW.

But really, it's quite clear Metzen and co were inspired by this in writing Kerrigan's story for SC 2, Kerrigan is exactly like Jean Grey in that storyline now and is facing precisely the same issues, with the Infested Kerrigan/Queen of Blades being her evil Dark Phoenix-like alter ego.

Becoming "incapable of empathy and compassion" is enough of a personality change to me to say it's a different personality. What would anyone do if stripped from empathy and compassion, and given lots of power? You can call that your choice?

Can't agree more about all this split personality stuff, Eligor.

Don't know about Kerrigan being always being devoid of personality whilst being infested. She may have been an just an angry drone with a leash when the Overmind was still around, but its death really opened her up as someone being metaphysically free. She chose to go down that (evil) path in BW and there were hints of regret at times (after the slaughter in True Colours). All this complex subtlety is gone with this "split personality" direction.

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Originally Posted by Norfindel

Becoming "incapable of empathy and compassion" is enough of a personality change to me to say it's a different personality. What would anyone do if stripped from empathy and compassion, and given lots of power? You can call that your choice?

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Her personality may have changed, but she still was a single entity with much of what made the human Kerrigan who she is carried over. She had memories of interactions with Raynor, and Mengsk, and COULD think in human terms, if not feel all of the emotions. That's what made her interesting. It wasn't some take over of Sarah Kerrigan by a malignant entity (the way WoL seems to imply), it was what Sarah Kerrigan had become.

My problem with her de-infestation is that there's too much "magic" in it, how could she be given back those human traits she lost (and that we knew and saw she had lost) by some alien artefact? Her biology may be accomodating such emotions again, that's true, but it doesn't mean that her personality would instantly revert to her pre-infested self. In fact if it's not permanently damaged she would need a lot of time to learn how to think, and act and feel like a human again, and then she still wouldn't be the same Kerrigan that existed before the infestation.

Why do you consider magic when she's turned human, but don't when she's turned Zerg? Ok, realistically, if parts of her DNA were overwritten in all her cells, that information is probably impossible to recover.

Other than that, there i don't see any problems: she's turned Zerg, is completely stripped from compassion and given huge power, so she decides to punish all Terrans (and even the Protoss, for some reason) instead of just trying to kill Mengsk (which she could have done, but chosen not to, apparently to make him suffer more). If she's turned human again, she would recover that human aspect, and be horrified by her actions. You don't kill hundreths of innocent people without feeling any guilt, unless you simply are like that, and Kerrigan didn't seen to be like that pre-infestation.

On top of that, while been Zerg, even if she had reasoning, and could choose how to do her tasks, she couldn't go against the will of the Overmind, and had to follow it's orders.

She was not possesed by any means, i agree about that, but i think that she was utterly changed by the infestation, and not only physically, and it wasn't her choice.

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Originally Posted by Norfindel

Why do you consider magic when she's turned human, but don't when she's turned Zerg? Ok, realistically, if parts of her DNA were overwritten in all her cells, that information is probably impossible to recover.

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For the same reason you don't hear about victims of intense brain damage ever fully recovering. Infestation is a scientifically understandable process, it's the hijacking and restructuring of an organism by a virus, of course no real virus is as purposefully organized as the one on which the Swarm is based, but allowing for the theoretical existence of such a virus controlled by an entity like the Overmind, Kerrigan's transformation into the Swarm isn't scientifically impossible, especially taking into account the long incubation period of her transformation into the Queen of Blades (Kerrigan clearly spends weeks if not months inside the Chrysalis). What the Artefact does however is incredibly specific and doesn't make much sense. If it absorbs Zerg genetic information then it should've absorbed Kerrigan entirely, because with the sort of physical restructuring she's got it would've been almost impossible for her to have any original Human cells left in her body (perhaps her skeleton and maybe parts of the nervous system, but then there's a question of whether would Zerg cells tolerate existing side by side with non-Zerg cells without trying to convert them into their own bio-chemical system, which somehow doesn't sound very likely). But then it doesn't just absorb the Zerg "essence" (for lack of a better term) out of her, but almost completely restores her human form AND personality (which would imply complete, precise and VERY specific restoration of her nervous system) in a matter of seconds! Which, unlike Infestation, is really quite a miracle with NO scientific or even pseudo-scientific explanation behind it whatsoever. And even if we suppose that Kerrigan's original personality lay hidden under the veneer of the Queen of Blades for all that time, the transformation is still quite miraculous, with no underlying logic or explanation to support it.

Oh, yes, i agree about that. The guy that wrote that either didn't knew much about genetics, or didn't cared, which is a horrible way of telling a story. On top of that, the Zerg are multiple modified organisms, even if the Artifact could wipe some part of the Zerg DNA it "recognizes", it would left all the rest, as no Zerg strain has the same DNA than another.

Had they chosen to say that the Artifact stripes the Zerg from the misterious energy they use, and that is very similar to the DT, thus leaving them KO for them to get to Kerrigan, and use a nanobot serum designed to restore her by using a former DNA sample (also serves as excuse to raid a Ghost training center, which could realistically have a Kerrigan blood sample for some reason).

Still, i think that if whatever the Zerg did to her brain keeped most of her personality, but made her much more aggressive, maybe reverting it could return her to normal. Still, i don't think we really know enough about the brain or the method the Zerg use to change it to say for sure. Maybe she had some kind of brain parasite, or something like that, and didn't really suffer brain damage in the infestation process.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

Is it safe to speculate that infestation always = evil and that the artifact wipes that away too? The writers might just say that Kerrigan turned 'evil' the instant she realised Mengsk and Raynor abandoned her at New Gettysberg and that the infestation did nothing but just turn her into a pawn with advanced Zergy powers.

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That would be the writers' prerogative, yes.

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Originally Posted by Eligor

For the same reason you don't hear about victims of intense brain damage ever fully recovering. Infestation is a scientifically understandable process, it's the hijacking and restructuring of an organism by a virus, of course no real virus is as purposefully organized as the one on which the Swarm is based, but allowing for the theoretical existence of such a virus controlled by an entity like the Overmind, Kerrigan's transformation into the Swarm isn't scientifically impossible, especially taking into account the long incubation period of her transformation into the Queen of Blades (Kerrigan clearly spends weeks if not months inside the Chrysalis). What the Artefact does however is incredibly specific and doesn't make much sense. If it absorbs Zerg genetic information then it should've absorbed Kerrigan entirely, because with the sort of physical restructuring she's got it would've been almost impossible for her to have any original Human cells left in her body (perhaps her skeleton and maybe parts of the nervous system, but then there's a question of whether would Zerg cells tolerate existing side by side with non-Zerg cells without trying to convert them into their own bio-chemical system, which somehow doesn't sound very likely). But then it doesn't just absorb the Zerg "essence" (for lack of a better term) out of her, but almost completely restores her human form AND personality (which would imply complete, precise and VERY specific restoration of her nervous system) in a matter of seconds! Which, unlike Infestation, is really quite a miracle with NO scientific or even pseudo-scientific explanation behind it whatsoever. And even if we suppose that Kerrigan's original personality lay hidden under the veneer of the Queen of Blades for all that time, the transformation is still quite miraculous, with no underlying logic or explanation to support it.

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Unfortunately there's no proof that it works the way you describe, especially since nanobots are apparently enough to remove infestation. See sandwichbird's post:

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Originally Posted by sandwich_bird

I didn't talk about a virus here. I'm thinking more about some kind of microscopic eukaryote based entity. The zerg cells wouldn't actually mutate the host cell's genetic code. Their metabolic activities would alone alter the host physical and behavioral aspect. If you're able to somehow remove every zerg cells present in the host (artifact thingy) then normal metabolic functions of the host would carry back on. Of course, this would only count for an organism that was infested like Kerrigan and not for one that was born "Zerg" which is why the artifact would kill zerg units(and structures I assume) but not Kerrigan.

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There is no 'science' in 'science fiction'

Regardless of whether you find it satisfying knowing Kerrigan is a split-personality or some continuous personality, the implication that she was "good" intially and was always "good" after her de-infestation seems like a final nail in the coffin in removing any significance that BW had on the SC universe out of existence.

BW was ultimately about Kerrigan finally coming to grips with her new lease on life. If the above is true about WoLs artificat turning her "good", WoL has rendered that meaningless as well. It gives the impression I just wasted my whole time with BW.

Along with all these other retcons mentioned by many others, there is no sense of satisfaction gained out of it all because there is no sense of finality from previously established end plot points. This lack of finality also extends even into the actions and behaviours of characters in the story. Instead, we get plot devices (ie: artifact) to artificially kick-start a seemingly unnatural chains of events and hackneyed character development.

@Gradius - The original StarCraft manual states that the Zerg infest other species by means of a virus. Of course it's validity becomes questionable with all the recent retcons, but sandwich_bird's explanation doesn't account for why would the artefact restore Kerrigan's human form or (for that matter) leave her with the Zerg "dreads". Her restoration to almost completely human form within moments still doesn't make sense. I love Norfindel's version of events though, I can buy into nanobots re-versing Infestation, as long as we know that it's a long, complex reverse-incubation sort of process (with questionable chances for success).

@Arkalis - That's why I put "pseudo-science" next to "science" in my previous post. There must be some sort of logic behind what things do, or don't do. At the moment, the artefact is nothing more than a Deus Ex Machinae (and a bad Deus Ex Machinae) for the writer's convenience to magically bend the Universe into any shape they want, instead of playing by the rules of the story.

@Turalyon - Pretty much exactly my thoughts on the matter.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

Regardless of whether you find it satisfying knowing Kerrigan is a split-personality or some continuous personality, the implication that she was "good" intially and was always "good" after her de-infestation seems like a final nail in the coffin in removing any significance that BW had on the SC universe out of existence.

BW was ultimately about Kerrigan finally coming to grips with her new lease on life. If the above is true about WoLs artificat turning her "good", WoL has rendered that meaningless as well. It gives the impression I just wasted my whole time with BW.

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On the other hand it could be a nice journey for her character (not that I have faith that it will be).

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Originally Posted by Eligor

@Gradius - The original StarCraft manual states that the Zerg infest other species by means of a virus. Of course it's validity becomes questionable with all the recent retcons, but sandwich_bird's explanation doesn't account for why would the artefact restore Kerrigan's human form or (for that matter) leave her with the Zerg "dreads". Her restoration to almost completely human form within moments still doesn't make sense. I love Norfindel's version of events though, I can buy into nanobots re-versing Infestation, as long as we know that it's a long, complex reverse-incubation sort of process (with questionable chances for success).

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Where does the manual say they use a virus? As far as I can see the only reference to infestation is for some of the queen's abilities, which use "spores" and "a parasitic bio toxin". The first time the term virus was used was in the short story StarCraft Hybrid. There's obviously more than one way to infest something in SC, and maybe the process in hybrid was more along the lines of assimilation. As for her hair, hair is dead cells anyway, so there's not really any reason for the artifact to do anything to it.

But yes, the Blizz writers do think that an infestation by virus can be removed with nanobots in resurrection IV, which isn't any more bizarre than Kerrigan's deinfestation. I doubt the artifact's function is as simple as "kill all zerg cells" though.

Hell, if it has to be a DNA-changing virus that does the infestation, then I contend that Kerrigan's original infestation in SC that you all seem to think was fine, is actually impossible. Not all DNA is the same, different parts code for different things in different species. There is no way for the Zerg to find which part codes for what just by looking at it. What if you get other tiny changes such as different replication mechanisms, or left handed vs. right handed DNA? True, the Xel'Naga did leave the Zerg instructions for assimilating races that they helped to guide, but humans weren't one of those.

My bad, couldn't find the mention of the Virus in the manual either.
Infested Kerrigan's "hair" is really segmented tentacles, and ones capable of movement at that (so there are some muscles in there). And if any "dead matter" would've remained, then why are all her chitinous platings gone? It's inconsistent whichever way you choose to look at it.

I could buy into a nanoserum explanation if the de-infestation takes sufficient time (at least a week) and its subject has to spend all of it floating in a regulated support tank.

I'd assume the Zerg have some fail-safe way of reading and manipulating DNA (they can definitely manipulate their own to create new strains). Although I imagine what they did to Kerrigan to be much more analagous to cancer, with Zerg cells replicating the functions of and replacing all of the original cells of her body during her incubation, so Infested Kerrigan's cellular compound is entirely different from that of the Human Kerrigan and her DNA is entirely Zerg, but adapted to representing a humanoid form.

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On the other hand it could be a nice journey for her character (not that I have faith that it will be).

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I agree that there's great mileage in the de-infestation of Kerrigan. They can go anywhere with this, but I share your lack of faith in them pulling it off in any convincing way.

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True, the Xel'Naga did leave the Zerg instructions for assimilating races that they helped to guide, but humans weren't one of those.

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Careful, Gradius. Don't want to start speculating now...

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There's obviously more than one way to infest something in SC, and maybe the process in hybrid was more along the lines of assimilation.

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It would be nice to some explanation of the varying degrees of Zerg infestation and how this relates to assimilation. Kerrigan has yet to assimilate any new strains into the Zerg as far as I can tell - I wonder why that is?
I also wonder if the original Zerg parasites still play a role in either infestation or assimilation. I recall that in the manual, the parasites where able to merge with their hosts whilst in the meantime they could control their host bodies and that assimilation of a species by these parasites was a long process that took a number of generations before "Zergy" characteristics became apparent.
Could this be an explanation for (the retcon of) why Kerrigan is the 'Saviour of the Swams/ Failsafe against the Overriding Directive' in SC2 and not as an excuse (so to speak) to incorporate psionic power into the Swarm in SC1? If the Overmind had intended to assimilate the psionic potential of humans, he should have assimilated Kerrigan (instead of infesting) and whored (Species style) her off whilst assimilating many other Ghosts to magnify this psionic trait. This may also explain why the Zerg Swarms have no real psionic warriors after those 4 years of 'supposed' evolution and growth, even with a mutated psionic human as its leader.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

It would be nice to some explanation of the varying degrees of Zerg infestation and how this relates to assimilation. Kerrigan has yet to assimilate any new strains into the Zerg as far as I can tell - I wonder why that is?

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She has. The roach is new, for instance, and its core genus is actually included in its lore (on the lore pages at battle.net and wikia).

Thanks for the pick-up there (the Infestor is another one, I think), Kimera. Still, I think the assimilation and subsequent creation of the Roach is somewhat iffy lorewise considering that the Hydralisk performed well enough in its place prior to the Roach being introduced. Likewise, the Infestor is a(n unexplained) replacement for the Defiler. Anyway, this is all beside the point I was trying to make.

I mean Kerrigan was able to evolve and assimilate a slug that eventually became the Roach in 4 years but still has yet to incorporate psionics in any real significant way (the new Queen unit is hinted at having psionic power but we don't see it utilised in any combative way). The manual said that the Terran's were only generations away from tapping into their psionic potential - surely Kerrigan would have incorporated it by now. There are hundreds of generic infested Terrans and yet none show any psionic potential in combat. Do they have to be assimilated for that to happen? The Zerg Aberration is supposed to be an advanced infested Terran - but it looks more akin to something that is fully incorporated/assimilated into the Swarm (and yet still has no psionic powers). Is there a difference between infestation and assimilation?

The difficulty with assimilating human psionic potential is that intelligence decreases with infestation. The Overmind tried with numerous Ghosts, only succeeding with Kerrigan herself. Kerrigan tried with numerous terrans as well, and only succeeded with Stewart. Basically it's a case of genetics, how most human DNA (e.g. like that of Haley) isn't robust enough for intelligence to be retained.

I think Kerrigan's effectively succeeded in assimilation to an extent, given the aberration, but I think psionics is a hurdle that's yet to be overcome. Probably over time, it would be more difficult to assimilate human psionic potential-after all, Khalai protoss are universally immune bar the PAX FUBAR and given their link to the Void, I'm guessing Nerazim are as well.

It's still somewhat unclear whether infestation is actually assimilation though. I've always thought of infestation as something that's relatively quick to do whilst assimilation is a much slower process (as described in the manual where the original Zerg worms parasitically merge and control the evolutionary path of its host through mutation after each subsequent generation).

Because of the above, I'm guessing that Protoss cannot be infested but they can be assimilated into the Swarm. The Overmind should have known whether or not the Protoss can be assimilated and/or infested based off the knowledge they absorbed from the Xel'Naga. If Protoss are totally immune to assimilation or infestation, the Overmind was lying all along in SC1 about why it wanted to invade Protoss space in the first place.

Why would the Overmind hide its true intention (finding an agent to free the Zerg) by lying to his own cerebrates? Gah, it doesn't make any sense anymore!

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after all, Khalai protoss are universally immune bar the PAX FUBAR and given their link to the Void, I'm guessing Nerazim are as well.

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The Overmind had some link to Void energies as well - it was the reason why it was vulnerable to Dark Templar/ Nerazim in the first place. They should thus be vulnerable to infestation and/or assimilation.

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

It's still somewhat unclear whether infestation is actually assimilation though. I've always thought of infestation as something that's relatively quick to do whilst assimilation is a much slower process (as described in the manual where the original Zerg worms parasitically merge and control the evolutionary path of its host through mutation after each subsequent generation).

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It doesn't seem unclear to me.

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Because of the above, I'm guessing that Protoss cannot be infested

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According to Chris Metzen, infested protoss are "impossible" (other than that one-off) and you would get a hybrid instead (assuming it was done "properly").

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but they can be assimilated into the Swarm.

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If you can't even infest one, how do you assimilate one? And given what the Overmind knows of the hybrid, if it made one, wouldn't it immediately start mind-controlling zerg and taking them away?

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The Overmind should have known whether or not the Protoss can be assimilated and/or infested based off the knowledge they absorbed from the Xel'Naga. If Protoss are totally immune to assimilation or infestation, the Overmind was lying all along in SC1 about why it wanted to invade Protoss space in the first place.

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It was fooling its own programming. While it had to try, that doesn't mean it couldn't deliberately come up with a plan that wouldn't work. (It's plan involved suicide!)

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Why would the Overmind hide its true intention (finding an agent to free the Zerg) by lying to his own cerebrates?

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The cerebrates were essentially a part of it, so maybe they were programmed too. Just picture the fight between Kerrigan and Daggoth. If the Overmind had told Daggoth what would happen, shouldn't Daggoth have given up control to Kerrigan? The cull of the cerebrates might have been an attempt to exterminate this link.

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The Overmind had some link to Void energies as well - it was the reason why it was vulnerable to Dark Templar/ Nerazim in the first place. They should thus be vulnerable to infestation and/or assimilation.

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Even if so, it seems the Overmind didn't want to, since it didn't actually want to create hybrids.

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If you can't even infest one, how do you assimilate one? And given what the Overmind knows of the hybrid, if it made one, wouldn't it immediately start mind-controlling zerg and taking them away?

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I've always thought they were separate processes. Infestation requires the use of "parasitic bio-toxin" and "spores" (manual say this) and is quick to do (Queen infesting CC to create I. Terrans). Assimilation, as far as I can tell, can only by done using the original Zerg insectoid to subtly change the evolution of the hosts species through generational mutation.

Is it right to call Zerglings, infested Zz'gashi Dune Runners or Ultralisks, infested Brontoliths? I wouldn't think so.

Of course, I could be wrong. From what you're trying to tell me, it seems you think infestation is the first process to assimilation and that it's all one (long?) process. Even so, the Zerg should have been able to isolate the genetic psionic potential by now.

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The cerebrates were essentially a part of it, so maybe they were programmed too.

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That's fine if they were, but the Overmind still had no reason to boldface lie about his intentions to his own cerebrates - they couldn't exactly rebel against him. If it could lie like this, it could have just lied to all its cerebrates to all come on Aiur to be sacrificed as well to allow Kerrigan total free reign over the Swarm back in Sc1 (assuming his "real" goal was to remove his own presence and use Kerrigan to 'free' the Zerg)

I find it difficult to know when the Overmind is NOT the Overmind in Sc1 based on the revelation of its true nature in Sc2.

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Even if so, it seems the Overmind didn't want to, since it didn't actually want to create hybrids.

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Ah, but there is a way to combine Zerg and Protoss DNA without creating hybrids. The new Zerg Queen unit is said to be a combination of aforementioned DNA...

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

I've always thought they were separate processes. Infestation requires the use of "parasitic bio-toxin" and "spores" (manual say this) and is quick to do (Queen infesting CC to create I. Terrans). Assimilation, as far as I can tell, can only by done using the original Zerg insectoid to subtly change the evolution of the hosts species through generational mutation.

Is it right to call Zerglings, infested Zz'gashi Dune Runners or Ultralisks, infested Brontoliths? I wouldn't think so.

Of course, I could be wrong. From what you're trying to tell me, it seems you think infestation is the first process to assimilation and that it's all one (long?) process. Even so, the Zerg should have been able to isolate the genetic psionic potential by now.

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The evidence is ... scanty. It doesn't help that infested intelligent beings are hard to acquire (or at least were; I'm pretty sure Kerrigan solved that problem).

The roverlisk (arrggghhh, lame concept!) was created from a dog. First the original dog ("Blue") was infested, and then later "clones" started cropping up all over the place.

Perhaps the zerg have already "assimilated" terrans, there's just no point in creating them. An infested colonist is weaker than other breeds, and while it might have intelligence, it would still be empty-headed due to a lack of education. In other words, humans are poor raw material for a breed.

The manual mentioned how, after absorbing many xel'naga, the Overmind was able to increase the intelligence of some of its breeds without losing control (suggesting making intelligent beings could result in betrayal). Ethan Stewart, for instance, was capable of betraying Kerrigan. He didn't because he was in love with her, and also because she threatened him with horrible death if he did so, but what would be the point of threatening him if he couldn't rebel?

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That's fine if they were, but the Overmind still had no reason to boldface lie about his intentions to his own cerebrates - they couldn't exactly rebel against him.

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The Overmind seemed like he had to justify his intentions to his "programming", effectively lying to his internal controls. This meant he had to come up with a plan that "looked right" but would not accomplish the Dark Voice's goals.

Baldly stating his plans to the cerebrates wouldn't make for a good cover up, IMO.

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Ah, but there is a way to combine Zerg and Protoss DNA without creating hybrids. The new Zerg Queen unit is said to be a combination of aforementioned DNA...

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The sources say it might contain protoss DNA (or terran DNA). The source wasn't sure, and so the wiki page isn't sure. Blizzard might not have made up their mind about it, either.

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The Overmind seemed like he had to justify his intentions to his "programming", effectively lying to his internal controls. This meant he had to come up with a plan that "looked right" but would not accomplish the Dark Voice's goals.

Baldly stating his plans to the cerebrates wouldn't make for a good cover up, IMO.

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I can't see how the Overminds plan to commit suicide would ever fit with its "programming". Sc1 never elaborates why the Overmind wanted to manifest on Aiur - we now know that it was to commit suicide. How does the Overmind justify this to his "programming" (which I would assume would want to preserve the Overmind's existence as much as possible to enact its endgame - killing Protoss) though? Putting itself at great risk would never "look right" to its "programming".

It seems strange that this programming seems so strong in compelling it to kill Protoss yet not strong enough to prevent it from risking self-harm and possible death.

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Even if so, it seems the Overmind didn't want to, since it didn't actually want to create hybrids.

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I have to go back to this quote you made. So let's get this straight:

The "programmed" Overmind wants to kill all Protoss. But doesn't it want to assimilate Protoss in Sc1? It seems quite emphatic about assimilating Protoss even if it is just an implanted directive. I think the "programmed" Overmind does want to create Hybrids. So, you must be talking about the "real" Overmind. Or, may be there are two divisions of the "programmed" Overmind that wants to kill or assimilate Protoss. What a convoluted mess! (By the way, Blizzard sure love having characters with split personalities)

So now we have the "real" (original, unblemished, natural or whatever) Overmind wanting to "free" the Zerg using some "psionic saviour". Free the Zerg from what? Mental slavery? Their own aggressive nature? If it's the former, there's no point - the original Zerg nature is to assimilate and grow even without being enslaved or having an overriding directive. The Overmind would've still wanted to assimilate the Protoss based on its natural instinct. If it's the latter, that's a retcon - the original Zerg organism has always been aggressive to a degree. They naturally adapted themselves to burrow into other animals flesh and hijack them.

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Originally Posted by Kimera757

The sources say it might contain protoss DNA (or terran DNA). The source wasn't sure, and so the wiki page isn't sure. Blizzard might not have made up their mind about it, either.

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Actually, IIRC, the official SC2 website describes the Queen as possibly having Protoss DNA.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

On the other hand it could be a nice journey for her character (not that I have faith that it will be).


Where does the manual say they use a virus? As far as I can see the only reference to infestation is for some of the queen's abilities, which use "spores" and "a parasitic bio toxin". The first time the term virus was used was in the short story StarCraft Hybrid. There's obviously more than one way to infest something in SC, and maybe the process in hybrid was more along the lines of assimilation. As for her hair, hair is dead cells anyway, so there's not really any reason for the artifact to do anything to it.

But yes, the Blizz writers do think that an infestation by virus can be removed with nanobots in resurrection IV, which isn't any more bizarre than Kerrigan's deinfestation. I doubt the artifact's function is as simple as "kill all zerg cells" though.

Hell, if it has to be a DNA-changing virus that does the infestation, then I contend that Kerrigan's original infestation in SC that you all seem to think was fine, is actually impossible. Not all DNA is the same, different parts code for different things in different species. There is no way for the Zerg to find which part codes for what just by looking at it. What if you get other tiny changes such as different replication mechanisms, or left handed vs. right handed DNA? True, the Xel'Naga did leave the Zerg instructions for assimilating races that they helped to guide, but humans weren't one of those.

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I know a few things about genetics. I think what happened to Kerrigan and Stukov is that, in some way, the Zerg genes were inhibited, thus preventing their expression. As a result, they became human again, but it has to be kept in check or something like that. The same thing is done in the PS3 series, "Resistance", to prevent a human from turning into a Chimera (It comes from a virus that mutates the DNA of a human and turns it into an "alien").

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Originally Posted by Alex06

Actually, IIRC, the official SC2 website describes the Queen as possibly having Protoss DNA.

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Key word in bold. Possibly, hence why I said "unsure".

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Originally Posted by Turalyon

I can't see how the Overminds plan to commit suicide would ever fit with its "programming".

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It could "justify" the plan. It didn't tell anyone it would commit suicide, it simply needed to take risks.

How does the Overmind justify this to his "programming" (which I would assume would want to preserve the Overmind's existence as much as possible to enact its endgame - killing Protoss) though? Putting itself at great risk would never "look right" to its "programming".[/quote]

I disagree. The Overmind suggested it needed to be physically present on Aiur to oversee the assimilation/hybridization of the protoss.

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It seems strange that this programming seems so strong in compelling it to kill Protoss yet not strong enough to prevent it from risking self-harm and possible death.

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The task the programming set was difficult and risky. The Overmind in fact believed it couldn't defeat the protoss without psionic help. (Or so it claimed, anyway.)

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The "programmed" Overmind wants to kill all Protoss. But doesn't it want to assimilate Protoss in Sc1? It seems quite emphatic about assimilating Protoss even if it is just an implanted directive. I think the "programmed" Overmind does want to create Hybrids. So, you must be talking about the "real" Overmind. Or, may be there are two divisions of the "programmed" Overmind that wants to kill or assimilate Protoss. What a convoluted mess! (By the way, Blizzard sure love having characters with split personalities)

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I think the programming is almost like a sentient "program" that can still be fooled. Or like how the Lich King was enslaved by the Burning Legion, but was still able to do things like get Arthas to kill Mal'Ganis. (It wasn't being constantly monitored, or something like that.) Hmm... when people say Blizzard likes to reuse plots, maybe they're not kidding :)

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So now we have the "real" (original, unblemished, natural or whatever) Overmind wanting to "free" the Zerg using some "psionic saviour". Free the Zerg from what? Mental slavery? Their own aggressive nature? If it's the former, there's no point - the original Zerg nature is to assimilate and grow even without being enslaved or having an overriding directive. The Overmind would've still wanted to assimilate the Protoss based on its natural instinct. If it's the latter, that's a retcon - the original Zerg organism has always been aggressive to a degree. They naturally adapted themselves to burrow into other animals flesh and hijack them.

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The Overmind probably would have wanted to assimilate the protoss, except the Overmind knew (from its vision) that assimilating them was a bad idea. Since it had intelligence, it would have decided not to, but it did not have (much) free will.

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Originally Posted by Kimera757

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The sources say it might contain protoss DNA (or terran DNA). The source wasn't sure, and so the wiki page isn't sure. Blizzard might not have made up their mind about it, either.

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That, and it's entirely possible the queens could in fact be hybrids. The moment I read it, I thought 'That's gonna be important, isn't it?'

How would the Queens be Hybrids? That wouldn't make any sense. Hybrids are supposed to be insanely powerful, why would you create an Hybrid that cannot really do much?

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Originally Posted by Norfindel

How would the Queens be Hybrids? That wouldn't make any sense. Hybrids are supposed to be insanely powerful, why would you create an Hybrid that cannot really do much?

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They wouldn't mention the possibility of the queens being partly protoss if they didn't have at least some plan for that info.

Pretty sure that the source of any ideas of the Queen having both DNA is that its mouth looks Protoss, which is ofc a stupid reason.

So maybe Blizzard used artwork as a lore source again.

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Originally Posted by Kimera757

So maybe Blizzard used artwork as a lore source again.

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They've done that before?

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It could "justify" the plan. It didn't tell anyone it would commit suicide, it simply needed to take risks.

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An unnecessary risk - the Overmind was invulnerable up to the point he decided to manifest himself. This should ring alarm bells in its "programming" as you'd think the "programming" would also have a sense of self-preservation. How else would you expect the "programming" to fulfill its function? Like I said, the "programming" is strong enough to do something but not others which is strange considering self-preservation should be part of its overall function to [insert preferred verb] the Protoss.

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The Overmind probably would have wanted to assimilate the protoss, except the Overmind knew (from its vision) that assimilating them was a bad idea. Since it had intelligence, it would have decided not to, but it did not have (much) free will.

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You've touched on a contradiction here on the nature of the Overmind and its programming. Does the Overmind want to assimilate or kill the Protoss? Or is it the programming that wants to assimilate or kill the Protoss? Or is it that the Overmind wants to assimilate the Protoss and the programming wants to kill the Protoss? Or is that the Overmind wants to kill the Protoss and the programming wants to assimilate the Protoss? Or is it they both want the same thing but at different degrees? Or maybe the Overmind does not want to kill or assimilate Protoss at all - it's just the programming.

Your description of the Overmind's true motivation is flitting back and forth between those notions I described above. It's still very confusing because when I go back to play Sc1, I don't know whether some parts are the programming or the 'real' Overmind that's "talking" to me.

One last thing, I also don't understand your concept of "(much) free will". It's like saying someone is partially intelligent, partially sad, partially fat, partially pregnant etc. You either are something, something else entirely or are not at all. Tassadar explicitly says the Overmind has no free will - so all these suggestions about the Overmind making these decisions you've described to fool its programming is somewhat contradictory.

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The Overmind suggested it needed to be physically present on Aiur to oversee the assimilation/hybridization of the protoss.

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This is speculation and I can do that, too. For example: The Overmind's victory speech upon successfully landing on Aiur could just be an exultation about how strong his Zerg are and that this success is going to be a forerunner for its ultimate success over the Protoss (which, in pre-WoL terms anyway, meant their assimilation) and nothing more.