Retconning Weakens Starcraft 2 Story

Dear Comrades,

One intelligent poster on Battle.Net named Andrew had written a well-thought-out critique of the weaknesses of SC2 plot. The thread has grown to be about 80 pages long as of today and is one of the longest threads in the SC2 official forums. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/374721415

Please post on the thread, if you'd like. I believe we need to keep it up to show Blizzard that the concerns are widespread.

The weakness of SC2's plot was agreed upon by at least ten acclaimed critics, as was posted here: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/1118393195 , but I am sure you do not need to be persuaded of it.

~ The ret-conning of the overmind's character from a powerful villain to a programmed puppet
~ Extremely weak dialgue and script compared to the original game and BW
~ Creating a recap of the history of SC during WOL's installation where events of Brood War are entirely skipped - the same voice with images can be found on Blizzard's official "story so far" section. Ironically, the second half of the voice-over is placed on a page dealing with Brood War, when it mentions nothing about Brood War - http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/game/lore/story-so-far/4

~ Weakening and inconsistencies with the characters of Raynor, Kerrigan and even Zeratul.
~ Inconsequential and unconnected branching optional quests
~ Lack of motivation in characters
~Ignoring the plot of the UED and Stukoff (yes, my Russian buddy ).

The list can go on and on...Andrew's post (essay) does a much better job critiquing the story.

What are your thoughts on it? If you have a moment, feel free to post on Andrew's thread and critique his arguments, if you can, so we can better serve the SC community and hope for Blizzard to improve the sequels. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/374721415

After almost 80 pages on the thread, we finally got Blizzard to post a tiny message that the writers are aware of our concerns, but no dialogue or a writer post is yet forthcoming unfortunately.

Thanks so much!


~RS

This is more a response to the battle.net critique than the one here, so:

-I don't see any Overmind retcon. The only possible retcon is the Overmind perhaps knowing about the protoss before destroying the xel'naga, but it was only given a directive to do so. Learning about the protoss was effectively a means to that objective. Another thing is that the Dark Voice hijacked the Overmind from the start. It's hijacked personality rather than alternate personality. What we saw of the Overmind always was the Overmind. It's the case of a becoming b, rather than b with elements of a. Indeed, the decision to infest Kerrigan makes much more sense in the light of freeing the zerg rather than the vague belief that it needed humanity's psionic potential to defeat the protoss.

There's also the issue that there were numerous hints beforehand. The Khala protects the protoss from infestation, so the Overmind's assimilative desires have a strange irony to them in the Dark Voice's plan. And outside interferance with the zerg was directly hinted at in Twilight. In essence, I felt the greater insight into the Overmind served the character well. I'm kind of reminded of Mal's words from Firefly:

"A darkness...darker than the space in which it moved through. He probably tried to turn away but they wouldn't let him. Faced with that kind of will, the only way to deal with it...is to become it."

(or something. Essentially the Overmind was made 'evil', but from the start. And it makes sense that the xel'naga would fall to that rather than a stuff-up after repeating the cycle into eternity).

-Firstly, four years passed since Raynor's promise. It's explicitly mentioned in lore material that he turned away from his path of vengeance against the zerg and turned against the Dominion, not to mention the poor effects on his physical state. Then there's the issue of Kerrigan having to live to save Creation. So no, I don't see Raynor's deviation as coming out of the blue. The material was set in stone years ago, developed in the story and concluded at its end.

-What relevance does the UED have to Wings of Liberty? Very little. There's simply no real reason to mention them, as they have no bearing on the story as it's told. Besides, mentions of the UED-Koprulu relationship would essentially be red herrings. It's explicitly confirmed that the UED won't return anyway.

-I think Mengsk was characterized well in Wings of Liberty. He's reached the end of his development and it shows. I, Mengsk flehsed it out better than I can explain, but he's gone through many phases in his life, and despot is the last one. He has no need to be charismatic, because he no longer has a goal that his charisma has given him. It suits him well IMO.

-Obviously the user can't tell the difference between manga and novels, that neither the Dark Voice or Voice in the Darkness appeared in the DTS and thinks that they were once one and the same. They could have been, but it's the same level of evidence that backs up Duran and Routhe being the same individual. Possible, but hardly concrete.

-Firstly, the colossi had been called back into service before Zeratul did so. Secondly, the Nerazim had nothing to do with the Kalath Intercession, so he bears no personal guilt. Thirdly, yes, it could have been mentioned, but it's stated that he's only heard tales of them. He may not even know about the intercession and it's quite likely he doesn't know that much. It's not something a Khalai would be willing to bring up.

-The Conclave were arrogant...so arrogant that they believed they were winning the war until their fall, as is clearly explained in BW. So it makes sense they wouldn't use the colossi. An enemy force may invade your country, but that doesn't mean that nuclear weapons are your first resort in fighting back.

-Um, I don't think the protoss really worship the xel'naga as gods. Yes, the Tal'darim do, but as fanatics, it makes sense. The whole "by the gods" thing strikes me as more of a cultural legacy, how one can say "oh my god!" without being religeous.

-Oh yes, prophecy was brought into Wings of Liberty Let's forget the first mention of prohecy in the series was in 1998 and has been mentioned numerous times afterwards. And it's effectively a xel'naga prophecy I think-certainly they'd indirectly predicted the Great War beforehand.

So yes, there's very little I agree with. I also feel that if the 'complaints' are acted on, the game will only get worse. Everything in WoL (or rather, the mentioned points) had prior material to build on. It's as if certain people want to scrap everything that came between BW and WoL.

Andrew is Gradius lol.

I dunno, Gradius seems a bit more knowledgeble than Andrew.

Anyway, I'm not against people expressing their opinions. They have theirs, I have mine. It's just that it often seems that so much of the opinion stems from ignorance in a sense. The prophecy example is the most pertinant to me. It's been used/mentioned so often throughout the series, yet it's only an issue in WoL? If so many people loathed the idea of prophecy, then why not complain back then? EU material? Yes, but if people care about the story enough to complain about prophecy, then surely they would have cared enough to gain some basic understanding of other material.

Hi Hawki,

Firstly, I want to thank you for responding. You obviously know how to respond in a logical and coherent matter and I have enjoyed thinking about your points. Why won't be so kind as to cut and paste your reply using your battle.net account on Andrew's thread? So far he has been very reasonable in debating points in a logical manner. If you're saying his point is based on ignorance, why not let him know? He legitimately cares for improving SC plot and has said time and time again that he welcomes harsh critique of his points because his goal is not to bash Blizzard but to better understand and help improve the story, even if (like you mentioned) he should have gotten to doing it earlier.

To reply from my end:

1. There was no mention of any Dark Voice or any tempering with the Overmind in SC/BW - the DV was made up later in order to fit the current story. Overmind wanted to create a powerful psionic, semi-independent servant to increase the power of the Swarm. Her power was apparent from the start when she was able to cal to her companions across vast space.

2. I know it's mentioned that 4 years had passed, but to me it looks like a poor way to escape Brood War's character build up of Raynor. Could it be that that's the reason Brood War is NOT mentioned in the "story so far" voice during the installation and the one posted on their site?

3. UED? UED set in motion an entire series of events that comprised Brood War - conquering the entire sector, enslaving the new young overmind, setting events that led to Kerrigan needing Protoss and the death of Raszagal. It's no fluke that the writers and artists of Brood War have chosen to focus on the UED in the opening and closing cinematic of the game! Admiral GugaLe tells his wife that "by now the news of our defeat have reached the earth." We are told that UED - the huge Government force on Earth and its colonies was formed as a direct result of the alien discovery in the C. Sector. Ending of the Terran Cinematic showed propaganda on Earth television about the dangers of the Zerg. (Yes it might have been "Soviet style" overblown propaganda, but obviously deemed important by Earth!). So to assume the UED on earth would find it plausible to forget about the region is not persuasive at all.


4. Mengsk was charismatic during SC and BW both at times when he was rising to power (early SC), when he achieved absolute control (Terran ending video) and when he was defeated and still needed to regain power (BW). Charisma had never left the originally brilliant dictator.

5. I posted links to SC and BW scripts on Battle net both in Andrew's forum and on the front page in a separate title. Please feel free to provide references to where Prophecy was mentioned in SC/BW.

6. I think you're indeed making a good point here about Colosi. If anything, Zeratul exclamation as to how much of an abomination a hybrid is...a if he saw one for the first time is more troublesome.

Once again, thanks and please consider posting what you said on Andrew's battle.net thread.


~RS

1. Gradius posted a retcon article on this site just a few weeks ago.
2. Gradius real first name is Andrew.

I saw that article and posted it on Andrew's thread, at which point he made no reference to being the author. At another time he mentioned that he did not read many of the books, I believe.

So unless there is a deliberate attempt to hide one's identity (which I see no reason for given similarity in views), the first name is probably a coincidence.

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Originally Posted by RussianSpy27

I saw that article and posted it on Andrew's thread, at which point he made no reference to being the author. At another time he mentioned that he did not read many of the books, I believe.

So unless there is a deliberate attempt to hide one's identity (which I see no reason for given similarity in views), the first name is probably a coincidence.

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How deliciously ironic then.

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Originally Posted by RussianSpy27

1. There was no mention of any Dark Voice or any tempering with the Overmind in SC/BW - the DV was made up later in order to fit the current story. Overmind wanted to create a powerful psionic, semi-independent servant to increase the power of the Swarm. Her power was apparent from the start when she was able to cal to her companions across vast space.

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Different people have different definitions of retcons. Some people are fine with new information, others aren't.

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3. UED? UED set in motion an entire series of events that comprised Brood War - conquering the entire sector, enslaving the new young overmind, setting events that led to Kerrigan needing Protoss and the death of Raszagal.

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Alas, none of that was actually relevant to Wings of Liberty. Raszagal was only mentioned in Zeratul's unit quotes. The stuff about the Second Overmind would probably needlessly confuse new players.

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Please feel free to provide references to where Prophecy was mentioned in SC/BW.

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There was evidence in lore, but not the game itself. Prophecy was briefly mentioned in Queen of Blades and also the Dark Templar Saga.

I'm not denying the almost certainty that the Dark Voice was brought in after the Overmind's initial story conception (though is likely hinted as far back as Dark Origin). As for Kerrigan, I think her birth really has double meaning-the Overmind created something to aid the Swarm, yet in a way that would fulfill both his and the Dark Voice's aims. This is perhaps the only time where the Overmind deviated from its directive, though I can understand the loophole of how it could do so really.

I dunno. The whole "Kerrigan needed to defeat the protoss" in the original game seemed a bit iffy to me, especially since it was never really made manifest. Granted, the Overmind learning of Aiur's exact location may have made it a moot point. Maybe I think the Dark Voice serves better as the "ultimate evil" while the Overmind is more along the lines of a magnificant bastard. Created to be evil, but not born as it. Or something.:confused:

-If this makes sense, I'd say that each war in the SC series has its own 'essence' if that makes sense. The 'essence' of the Great War is zerg vs. protoss with terrans caught in-between. The 'essence' of the Brood War, I'd argue, is Kerrigan vs. Daggoth with everyone else caught in-between or in the case of the UED, an outside factor. A strong one, but still outside nonetheless. As strong a role as the UED plays in BW, I still feel that it was really a zerg-centric conflict.

Once again it's down to opinion. Yes, the UED could have been mentioned in WoL, but didn't have to be. Kind of like the Guild Wars-mentioned for Meinhoff and Redstone III effectively, but it didn't really affect the story. Since the UED won't play a role in the trilogy, there's only really so much you can do with them without making it feel superflous. Maybe that's why the Brood War was skimmed over-the Great War sections in the prologue were followed up, such as Tassadar and the Overmind. The UED could have, probably should have been mentioned, but in the story itself, it wouldn't have that much relevance.

Anyway, it's been confirmed that the UED intends to do more at some point in the future. StarCraft III perhaps?

-Charisma never left Mengsk when he needed it-as you said...until the end of BW. Since then, he's had goals-hunt down Raynor, get revenge on Kerrigan, but I think that has to be mitigated by actually running an empire. It was mentioned in an interview that Mengsk's story has essentially been told, how he's gone from revolutionary to dictator. He can/could do what he wants and people will go along. Once again, down to opinion. But I did get the feeling from WoL that Mengsk is indeed reaching the end of his development. Valerian, who's an interesting character in his own right, seems ready to take the throne. Hopefully Arcturus will get what's coming to him in HotS. Still, again, opinion.

-Zeratul and the hybrid...I think I effectively missed that line in the mission, but I can understand the reaction from fans. Cynically, I'd point out that Duran being mentioned at that point may do more harm than good for newcomers. But for fans? Well, there is the fact that we know that Duran isn't the only one who's made hybrids-Ulrezaj is one, the Dominion another and I think Zeratul knew about the former via Zamara and Jake. There's also the issue of schemantics-I can say "who gave me a bad mark for an exam?" Obviously the marker, but which one? Kind of like, who, working for Duran, did this?

Weak, I know. Indeed, there seems to be quite a bit going for Zeratul and his lines, saying how I must do x to accomplish y all the time. Thing is, I'd say that's really for the player, instead of the narrator format instructing the player in Warcraft III. Pros and cons I guess, but I wouldn't say it's Zeratul going senile. If anything, he's thinking the lines rather than saying them. Heck, for a telepathic race, speaking and thinking are pretty similar.;)

-Technically prophecy was first mentioned in Retribution-I think the next one, this time directly from Blizzard was in its battle.net maps. Either way, it came into play pretty early.

-I'm a bit surprised, come to think of it, that the issue of Tassadar wasn't mentioned. For the record, I'm about 50/50. His return wasn't exactly a surprise-it was hinted at in a BlizzCon, again in Twilight with the Anak'Sun concept. Some have compared him to Medivh and I can appreciate the similarity, but with Medivh, he came back for redemption and I felt it was handled well, how he went from villain in WC1, to fallen hero in WC2, to redeemed individual in WC3 (further fleshed out in The Last Guardian-one of the best WC books IMO).

Tassadar seems to have a different angle. One of the DTS vibes that was expressed directly and indirectly is that the protoss seem to be in their own cycle of disunion and reunification. Aeon of Strife, Khas saves them. The Discord, Adun saves them. The return of the Nerazim to Aiur, Tassadar uses both Khala and Void energies and saves them. Something else is going on I think. I even wonder if the Dark Voice might be related to the mini-cycle sometimes.

On the other hand, I think Raynor could have at least acknowledged the fact that Tassadar returned. Yes, he now knows that Kerrigan can save them but...come on Raynor, surely Tassadar deserves a mention?:( Still, again, opinion.

-I'm a bit reluctant to post on b.net, to create an account for a single post and likely never post again. Still, feel free to copy-paste or something.

-deleted

I completely agree with you about Tassadar. We're going to have to wait and see, I suppose. You also make a good point about Zeratul/hybrids and meeting with Duran.

By the way, speaking of Duran, I will be disappointed if Narud is indeed Duran because (1) Unless he is a shape-shifter, he was a cool Black character in SC1...so now he's white? Come on! and (2) It would be a very childish symbolism play that everyone caught onto fast. The writers are not exactly aiming at the Pre-K market, I suppose.

I am not convinced about the UED though. I'm not arguing that with the way WOL was written, many of BW events had no place there. Indeed, with the given WOL story, they probably did not have a place in that campaign.

I'm arguing, however, that the DECISION of the writers to write the script of WOL as to evade events of Brood War made it lazy writing and inconsiderate to the awesome expansion and its significant lore and character development. They essentially decided to ignore Brood War's history, which is simply not impressive and an insult to the fans.

There's actually a few more mentions of the Brood War-such as the very first cutscene. There's also the fact that BW is covered quite extensively in the WoL manual. Don't know why it wasn't in the loading sequence though...

...again, this might be to do with what was featured. Shakuras didn't really appear in WoL bar a flashforward, so there goes the protoss campaign. The UED doesn't factor into the trilogy, so there goes the terran campaign. The cerebrates are dead along with the Second Overmind, so there goes the zerg campaign. In contrast, we have Mengsk's accendance and Kerrigan's betrayal as factors, the Overmind's defeat and invasion of Aiur as factors, and the whole Raynor's experience with the protoss as factors in WoL. Vanilla is simply more relevant to the storyline.

I don't think BW has been forgotten. If anything, sometimes I feel it gets more relevance than it should, given how more destructive the Great War was (or at least seems to be). From writing experience, there's a limit as to how much you can reference past events without coming off as pretentious.

Edit: Narud. I actually suspect he may not be Duran. It was said there's a "connection" between the two. Now Blizzard couldn't confirm that he was indeed one and the same, but I forget where I read it, the entymology of "Duran" and "Narud" are oppsoites. It's as if he's being set up as Duran's opposite in a sense, depending on how you look at it.

Or he's one and the same. If so, nice idea, but pretty obvious.

Second Edit: Should get back to revision. Sorry to leave off like this. I guess BW is the outstanding issue, but...I dunno, just didn't seem to bother me as much as others. Again, subjective.

Picture DuGalle's wife Helena, with a tear on her cheek, running to the President of the UED with a copy of her husband's light speed email as the only piece of evidence that surfaced after no one came back from the fleet. This in turn makes the UED government seriously fear the aliens and (not just for propaganda) send a huge retaliatory force back into the C.Sector.

To me, it seems like a very logical and plausible move given what we learned about the UED in BW. (If President Obama were to send an expeditionary force to Mars because Aliens were spotted there and no one came back, can you imagine the panic and arms race we'd have? But anyway, that fear was already shown in the ending of the Terran BW campaign, because it's only natural).

So, why does the UED not have a place in the trilogy? It would not have a place, simply because the writers chose to write WOL in a way that would not give them space, which in turn contradicts the natural foreshadowing of events that happened in Brood War.

Moreover, if we look at "In Utter Darkness" mission. Zeratul states that Terrans are no more and Protoss are the only ones left to fight the Hybrids. If the hybrids came to anhielate the whole galaxy, wouldn't the UED be involved too? Duran, BTW, knew to stick to the UED right away in BW in order to further his plans.

BW was ignored because it is irrelevant to WoL. BW was given a detailed recap in the SCII manual. Conclusion is that Andrew need to find something better to whine about than the lack of BW in WoL. Besides, BW kind of resolved itsself. Everyone in WoL were in the same place that they were at the end of BW (which happens to be the same place they were at at the end of SC... goes to show how irrelevent BW was) and the UED were destroyed. The UED wanted the overmind, the overmind dies, the UED have to reason to come back even if they could. Also, I really hope that Blizzard DO retcon significant parts of BW. I mean, c'mon, a psi disruptor on Tarsonis.... that Arcturus "but you said that revenge was secondary to the UED" Mengsk failed to find despite months of searching? Seriously? sigh...

The word terran happens to include Earth by the way, not just the k-sector. Which mean that Earth has already been defeated. I suppose that the lack of UED could be cleanly and easily explained by the Hybrids attacking Earth between BW and WoL and destroying or incapacitating them so that they're out of the picture. "but that's bad/lazy/lame writing". yeah, I don't agree, sorry.

I'm sorry but destroying a beautiful expansion that shaped lives of every character of the saga is beyond lazy writing. It's absolutely irresponsible.

If they do include a storyline about the earth getting destroyed, then guess what, at least it'll make sense - but let that storyline happen first. Now let's recap how Brood War shaped everyone's lives:

1) Kerrigan murders High Judicator Aldaris of the Auir Protoss, brings Zerg to Shakuras and becomes responsible for death of multitudes when the Khalis and Uraj were activated and everything not within the Temple burned.

2) The UED, a powerful totalitarian Earth regime which sole existence originated as a response to alien presence in the sector, invades and takes over the Zerg overmind. The entire planet earth later learns of the event and how the UED prevented an alleged future invasion - the UED take up opening cinematic and the Terran finalle.

3) Kerrigan, in need to ascertain control of the Broods, blackmails the Protoss into killing the new overmind and causes the death of the head of all Dark Templar and hence all Protoss, since all of them were at Shakuras.

4) Kerrigan orchestrates the death of Raynor's close friend, Fenix, shattering Jim's remenant of positive emotions toward her.

5) Samir Duran uses each faction as pawns in order to insure that he can safely build his deadly hybrids. (The only point alluded to in WOL).

6) Kerrigan destroys the remnant of the UED's expeditionary force, destroying every single ship, but not before Admiral DuGalle composes a letter to his wife, explaining that news of their defeat reached Earth already.

Let me tell you, that ever since Brood War ended, I wanted nothing less than to see what the UED's next plan would be in retaliation for the defeat. BW writers have done such an AWESOME job with the UED and the great emotional scene at the end of the game, that one can only ask for a continuation!

I understand that there is an analogy of UED as Great Britain and K-Sector as the United States that were eventually let alone, but the presence of deadly aliens that served as the foundation for the UED's origin changes the situation completely. The only logical and natural progression of Brood War's events is for UED to "Strike Back" - yes I love Empire Strikes Back.

The good news is that Heart of the Swarm might be a perfect place for the writers to do so, given that it might have taken the Earth 4 years to amass a huge armada and re-invade the sector.

To each his own I guess. I didn't really feel any need for the UED to return in the near future. In a way, the discovery of aliens served its purpose, completely solidifying its rule over Earth. Launching a war of conquest against aliens 60,000 light years away that have no idea where you reside doesn't seem to promise many net benefits. Also, the UED coming in in the midst of a conflict is esentially a repeat of BW. 'Sides, it's been explicitly stated that Earth will play no role in the trilogy, so don't get your hopes up.

Probably thinking too far ahead, but I think the UED would best be reserved for a hypothetical SCIII-distinguished as a faction, along with fleshing out and actually depicting the galaxy's other sapients. Given the UED's apparent xenophobia, it would make for a good combination. Still, I think storywise, most of Blizzard's focus will be on Diablo and its new MMO in the near future.

Edit: Technically, the term "terran" really only refers to K-sector humans. It's more or less a cultural thing, as explained in Uprising.

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Originally Posted by Hawki

To each his own I guess. I didn't really feel any need for the UED to return in the near future. In a way, the discovery of aliens served its purpose, completely solidifying its rule over Earth. Launching a war of conquest against aliens 60,000 light years away that have no idea where you reside doesn't seem to promise many net benefits. Also, the UED coming in in the midst of a conflict is esentially a repeat of BW. 'Sides, it's been explicitly stated that Earth will play no role in the trilogy, so don't get your hopes up.

Probably thinking too far ahead, but I think the UED would best be reserved for a hypothetical SCIII-distinguished as a faction, along with fleshing out and actually depicting the galaxy's other sapients. Given the UED's apparent xenophobia, it would make for a good combination. Still, I think storywise, most of Blizzard's focus will be on Diablo and its new MMO in the near future.

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SC3? Brother, that's light years away on its own. :)

Kerrigan knows where earth is and I wouldn't be surprised if other zerg/hybrids didn't know by now.

I understand what you're saying about repeat of Brood War, but now that Hybrids are involved, they could modify the story. Hell, let earth be destroyed, as another poster suggested. That would offer something new to sci-fi as we usually do not see Earth destroyed by aliens.

Anyway, you have a point and maybe I'm being overly nostalgic, but I thought the original BW writers put a lot of thought and emotion into the game. Just take a look at the script along with a person nicknamed "Magic"'s comments on it, extrapolating beautiful historical allusions and analysis of the characters and the story. - http://samods.org/node/199

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Originally Posted by Hawki

...I think the UED would best be reserved for a hypothetical SCIII-distinguished as a faction...

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I rather like this idea. It would provide plenty of time for Blizzard to produce some new, distinctly UED human-controlled units, too, to distinguish the UED's tech from the tech of the K-sector terrans.

Right, I don't know what the lore definition of terran is, but the dictionary definition means "from earth". Look it up. And I'm quite sure that terran culture does not apply to zeratul.

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Originally Posted by RussianSpy27

SC3?

Kerrigan knows where earth is and I wouldn't be surprised if other zerg/hybrids didn't know by now.

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No she doesn't actually. Or at least there's been no indication that she does. She might have a general idea, but that doesn't cut it when your dealing with tens of thousands of light lears and 100 billion possibiliies; you need precise coordinates.

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Originally Posted by phazonjunkie

No she doesn't actually. Or at least there's been no indication that she does. She might have a general idea, but that doesn't cut it when your dealing with tens of thousands of light lears and 100 billion possibiliies; you need precise coordinates.

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During the entirety of the events in Brood War she didn't have a single opportunity to take over (read: as opposed to BLOWING THE FUCK OUT OF) some UED structure, or capture some UED personnel, who would know this location?

That sounds a little far-fetched.

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Originally Posted by pure.Wasted

During the entirety of the events in Brood War she didn't have a single opportunity to take over (read: as opposed to BLOWING THE FUCK OUT OF) some UED structure, or capture some UED personnel, who would know this location?

That sounds a little far-fetched.

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Why do you think DuGalle comitted suicide?

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Originally Posted by Louis

Why do you think DuGalle comitted suicide?

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Because he realized he was an idiot and is responsible for A) the death of his best friend, B) the deaths of countless people at his command, and C) the potential deaths of everyone on Earth?

Is C) what you were trying to get at? I suppose "she knows the location of our planet" would be a pretty legit reason for offing oneself, should oneself consider she a horrendous enough threat.

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Originally Posted by RussianSpy27

Picture DuGalle's wife Helena, with a tear on her cheek, running to the President of the UED with a copy of her husband's light speed email as the only piece of evidence that surfaced after no one came back from the fleet. This in turn makes the UED government seriously fear the aliens and (not just for propaganda) send a huge retaliatory force back into the C.Sector.

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That's crazy talk. You might as well refight the Vietnam War. The UED got beat; now they have to buck up. If they're going to fight a war again, they might not want to spend "months" studying the enemy. They would need years. Which would put them outside of StarCraft II.

Albert Einstein (alleged): “Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.”

The UED has no element of surprise, possibly no spies in the K-Sector, no Psi Disruptor (the closest thing is that piddly, greatly inferior version developed by Raynor's Rangers which only slows zerg in an area of effect), they lost their most-decorated four-star admiral... how could they possibly expect to do better a second time?

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Moreover, if we look at "In Utter Darkness" mission. Zeratul states that Terrans are no more and Protoss are the only ones left to fight the Hybrids. If the hybrids came to anhielate the whole galaxy, wouldn't the UED be involved too? Duran, BTW, knew to stick to the UED right away in BW in order to further his plans.

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1) Terrans might only refer to K-Sector terrans. (Uprising and the Iron Fist suggest this, but other sources might disagree.)
2) The UED could be caught by surprise.
3) Who in the K-Sector even knows how to communicate with the UED?
4) Defeating the UED probably had nothing to do with Duran's plans, but with Kerrigan's. Duran was posing as her servant; if she gives him orders, he has to follow them. He can't tell her "no, my mysterious benefactor said no".

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1) Kerrigan ... becomes responsible for death of multitudes when the Khalis and Uraj were activated and everything not within the Temple burned.

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There's no evidence of this at all. Nowhere were we told that a single protoss was killed by the temple. Not in Story So Far, not in the Dark Templar Saga, nowhere. Furthermore the temple had to be activated in order to save the protoss from Daggoth's forces. Hell, she even helped them get the crystals needed to activate the temple. (Okay, so killing Daggoth's forces helped her, but it's more important to say that it helped her as well.) She's already responsible for killing billions of people. You don't need to stack on anymore.

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Originally Posted by pure.Wasted

During the entirety of the events in Brood War she didn't have a single opportunity to take over (read: as opposed to BLOWING THE FUCK OUT OF) some UED structure, or capture some UED personnel, who would know this location?

That sounds a little far-fetched.

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The Overmind absorbed many xel'naga and still didn't know where Aiur was, except for a vague direction.

I doubt there was any UED human, not even Stukov, who would have the coordinates in their head. That kind of complicated info is stored in databases. Kerrigan would need to mind control a navigation specialist aboard a battlecruiser to get that kind of info. I don't think she had the chance. She was more interested in blowing stuff up. I also doubt Kerrigan had any interest in going after Earth. Even if she wanted to, being ticked off and all, her desire to stick it to Mengsk and her premonition at the end of Brood War put a stop to that.

Ironically, the UED's attack made them less safe. I doubt Kerrigan gave one whit about Earth until the UED showed up.

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Originally Posted by Kimera757

That's crazy talk. You might as well refight the Vietnam War. The UED got beat; now they have to buck up. If they're going to fight a war again, they might not want to spend "months" studying the enemy. They would need years. Which would put them outside of StarCraft II.

Albert Einstein (alleged): “Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.”

The UED has no element of surprise, possibly no spies in the K-Sector, no Psi Disruptor (the closest thing is that piddly, greatly inferior version developed by Raynor's Rangers which only slows zerg in an area of effect), they lost their most-decorated four-star admiral... how could they possibly expect to do better a second time?
============

1) Terrans might only refer to K-Sector terrans. (Uprising and the Iron Fist suggest this, but other sources might disagree.)
2) The UED could be caught by surprise.
3) Who in the K-Sector even knows how to communicate with the UED?
4) Defeating the UED probably had nothing to do with Duran's plans, but with Kerrigan's. Duran was posing as her servant; if she gives him orders, he has to follow them. He can't tell her "no, my mysterious benefactor said no".


There's no evidence of this at all. Nowhere were we told that a single protoss was killed by the temple. Not in Story So Far, not in the Dark Templar Saga, nowhere. Furthermore the temple had to be activated in order to save the protoss from Daggoth's forces. Hell, she even helped them get the crystals needed to activate the temple. (Okay, so killing Daggoth's forces helped her, but it's more important to say that it helped her as well.) She's already responsible for killing billions of people. You don't need to stack on anymore.



The Overmind absorbed many xel'naga and still didn't know where Aiur was, except for a vague direction.

I doubt there was any UED human, not even Stukov, who would have the coordinates in their head. That kind of complicated info is stored in databases. Kerrigan would need to mind control a navigation specialist aboard a battlecruiser to get that kind of info. I don't think she had the chance. She was more interested in blowing stuff up. I also doubt Kerrigan had any interest in going after Earth. Even if she wanted to, being ticked off and all, her desire to stick it to Mengsk and her premonition at the end of Brood War put a stop to that.

Ironically, the UED's attack made them less safe. I doubt Kerrigan gave one whit about Earth until the UED showed up.

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A. UED's core platform exists on the ideology of exterminating the alien threat. It's a totalitarian government that is not based on religion, but on ideology of human supremacy. Without an ideology and its practical application, the State loses its foundation and hence control over the planet. Nazi ideology was racial supremacy, Soviet ideology was battle with the West and Capitalism. Constant arms race and propaganda was needed to keep the populace's faith in the system. Vietnam was example does not fit here. America was not afraid of Vietnam. We were afraid of the spread of Communism to yet one more country. America was afraid of the USSR and was involved in constant verge of war AKA Cold War Arms Race. Here, if Vietnam is the K-Sector then USSR is Zerg and Protoss, except that cold war is not feasible in the Starcraft universe.

B. UED sent an expeditionary force (not a huge army) that relied on acquiring local equipment, such as Battle Cruisers to wage the war against Dominion. Metzen said that the UED has "big guns" at home that they didn't bring the first time around http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/UED#Technology . You make a good point about taking time to study the enemy, but four years should be enough, especially considering they have studied the aliens in detail prior to BW.

C. Good point about Duran seemingly following Kerrigan's orders during the UED invasion, but turning back to the Utter Darkness Mission, the epic scope of that mission would naturally suggest than entire universe is in peril, including Earth Terrans.

D. Ok about the crystals, though if it was not for her, it's unknown whether the Protoss would have used the destructive power of the crystals on their entire planet. She led them to the crystals after brainwashing the Matriarch. My point here was to remind everyone about how significant Brood War was.

E. Have you ever thought about the fact that if Kerrigan brainwashed the Matriarch by the time Zeratul and co arrived from Aiur, Kerrigan must have already, on her own initiative found Shakuras - the dark homeworld of the DT that wasn't exactly in every Protoss' high school textbook. Recall - BW Mission 1

Zeratul: Now, Executor, I know
of a place where we can find
solace. It is Shakuras, the secret
homeworld of my people the Dark
Templar.

Finding Earth, where all Terrans came from, would probably not be a harder task.

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Originally Posted by RussianSpy27

A. UED's core platform exists on the ideology of exterminating the alien threat. It's a totalitarian government that is not based on religion, but on ideology of human supremacy. Without an ideology and its practical application, the State loses its foundation and hence control over the planet. Nazi ideology was racial supremacy, Soviet ideology was battle with the West and Capitalism. Constant arms race and propaganda was needed to keep the populace's faith in the system. Vietnam was example does not fit here. America was not afraid of Vietnam. We were afraid of the spread of Communism to yet one more country. America was afraid of the USSR and was involved in constant verge of war AKA Cold War Arms Race. Here, if Vietnam is the K-Sector then USSR is Zerg and Protoss, except that cold war is not feasible in the Starcraft universe.

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I disagree. The UED is new. The UPL was a totalitarian government based on human supremacy which actually collapsed upon seeing superior protoss forces burning terran worlds.

The UED did form with the intent of defeating the alien "threat", but as DuGalle discovered, said threat was too much for them to handle. Even the Dominion was beating him by the end of things. (Not without help, but in his own words the colonies weren't tameable.)

The UED has even worse things going for it than last time. Instead of wasting time attacking the Dominion, they could ally with Mengsk this time... except there's no way in hell Mengsk or any Dominion citizen would trust them, much less welcome them, after they were conquered last time.

China was devoted to spreading communism a while back. Not too long before Vietnam China tried to spread communism to the Philippines by sponsoring guerrilla warfare. They failed miserably. They didn't try again. The US believed this meant communists were weak and could be easily beaten. Boy were they wrong! It happened eventually, after a long slow process of self-inflicted communist economic and eventual political damage, plus the disastrous invasion of the Graveyard of Empires (Afghanistan). It did take the USSR ten years to learn their lesson there; only two years after finally pulling out, the USSR fell apart.

The USSR tried to sponsor communism throughout Latin America. They were only really successful in Cuba. They tried several times and then gave up. Left-wing terrorist movements like the FARC have to operate on their own (selling drugs gives them the money they want).

If a nation loses big time, they give up... and make excuses.

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B. UED sent an expeditionary force (not a huge army) that relied on acquiring local equipment, such as Battle Cruisers to wage the war against Dominion. Metzen said that the UED has "big guns" at home that they didn't bring the first time around http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/UED#Technology .

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True to all that, but I personally don't believe sending in a bigger force would make up for the advantages the UED lost. Furthermore, sending in a smaller force to make some sort of diplomatic contact with, say, the Kel-Morian Combine (they didn't have a bad relationship with them) would be a much smarter plan.

(Otherwise, to keep bringing up real-life examples, the US is flailing in Afghanistan right now due to not understanding a heck of a lot of Afghan culture. The warlord says "there's al-Qaeda and Taliban over there; bomb 'em!" and the US does it. Turns out those guys were forces belonging to rival warlords. This happens all the time. The US forces there probably outnumber the Taliban... it's not helping. Now of course the UED could ignore the lessons of history, but that means they're insane.)

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You make a good point about taking time to study the enemy, but four years should be enough, especially considering they have studied the aliens in detail prior to BW.

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There's been no evidence, though, that the UED has been able to study their opponents up close. Maybe they can spy on their enemies at range like before, but there's only so much info you can gain without boots on the ground or being able to talk to people there. We have no evidence the UED ever knew where Shakuras was (which would make spying on the protoss more than a little difficult).

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D. Ok about the crystals, though if it was not for her, it's unknown whether the Protoss would have used the destructive power of the crystals on their entire planet. She led them to the crystals after brainwashing the Matriarch. My point here was to remind everyone about how significant Brood War was.

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I'm not saying it's not significant, but I have to disagree that using the crystals was even a bad thing. The protoss were in such trouble (due to Daggoth's invasion) they had to use them. Even arrogant Artanis was scared. If it wasn't for Kerrigan helping the protoss on Char (to get the Khalis), the protoss might have lost Shakuras as a base, too.

The only downside is that Kerrigan was aided as well, but if I had to choose between certain short-term destruction and possible long-term destruction, I'll go with the latter.

The only thing a new player to the game needs to know is that Kerrigan was abandoned by Mengsk and took over the Swarm after the Overmind died. I just can't see how discussing the prophecy along with Daggoth and the Second Overmind would make anything clearer to anyone who isn't a lore nut like us.

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E. Have you ever thought about the fact that if Kerrigan brainwashed the Matriarch by the time Zeratul and co arrived from Aiur, Kerrigan must have already, on her own initiative found Shakuras - the dark homeworld of the DT that wasn't exactly in every Protoss' high school textbook.

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Yes. I suspect the Overmind learned of its location from Zeratul. (StarCraft I says they learned each others' secrets, although Zeratul clearly didn't learn about the Dark Voice until Tassadar showed him that vision.)

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Finding Earth, where all Terrans came from, would probably not be a harder task.

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I very much doubt that. And even if Kerrigan knew where Earth was, what is she going to do about it? Her concerns are more local. If she goes to Earth, it's to ask them to fight the hybrids, nothing more. (And Mengsk's diplomats would, for obvious reasons, do a better job at this.)

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Originally Posted by RussianSpy27

Zeratul: Now, Executor, I know
of a place where we can find
solace. It is Shakuras, the secret
homeworld of my people the Dark
Templar.

Finding Earth, where all Terrans came from, would probably not be a harder task.

---

Lol, and after reading this. How can you argue (in general) how sc1 got a more fluid and better storytelling?

Twilice, Kimera's response about Kerrigan finding out Shakuras' location from the Overmind's link with Zeratul is a perfectly fine explanation as far as location is concerned. He is correct.

SC/BW was had a much better plot for reasons of character development, much more powerful dialogue, suspense and intrigue moments, epic feel and coherence.

A newb playing the Campaign has no freaken clue what in the universe is flying. We see some ex-convict re-connecting with an old friend who has gone alcoholic because a dictator betrayed his girl who is now a monster. It's all very nice but what's that all about? Who is the weird alien who discovered some prophecy who had a fight with the lady monster on heels? Hybrids? What??? What the writers did, was the following: A) Make the story epic-less for a newb. B) Make the story seemingly coherent for someone who played SC, but retcon BW (I don't just mean UED, I mean character development as well for Kerrigan and Raynor) and hence make the story feel double-out of place.

==================

Kimera, I agree that governments abandon failed missions. Yet, here, UED is actually afraid of the alien threat. It's not merely an imperialistic mission that they undertook and then decided to abandon, but a move of a pre-emptive survival strike. Whether the higher-ups genuinely believed so or not, that was the official propaganda, so we can take it at face-value. You're right about the point that a full-fledged attack may not be the best choice. I even recalled of a good historical example to back your reasoning with:

After the Roman Empire, under General Marcus Crassus invaded the Parthians, whom the Romans were at relative harmony with, the lack of knowledge of local lands and people led to a shameful defeat for the Romans that ended with the dead of Crassus. Despite the defeat, Romans later retaliated under Mark Anthony with a second invasion, where he brought a huge army along, but for the same reasons you bring up, he was defeated as well. (Rome would have retaliated with a better chance of success, had brilliant Caesar been alive, as he had strong plans in doing so, but alas he was dead). That was an example of a situation when Rome did not feel especially threatened.

In the case of the UED, they have many more reasons to be threatened by the mysteriously powerful double-alien force that exterminated its expedition - even if they may not want to pull a Mark Anthony and engage in a full-sledged attack and be involved in more subtle ways.

Yet, for UED to not be involved in any way, to disappear and essentially be forgotten in the sequel to BW would be to undermine and retcon the entire awesome story. If we think about it, everything in BW, everything (except the story of how Protoss survived by relocating to Shakuras) had to do with the UED in one way or another.

BW writers did a great move by connecting the history of the Colonized Terrans by bringing in a whole new player - the UED into the grand scheme of things. To me, the note about none of the ships making it back was more of a notion that to Earth, the details of the defeat remained shrouded with mystery, but it certainly did not signal lack of their resurgence in SC2.

So what would I have done? I would have included the abbreviated BW story, in its entirety, in the installation voice (without details of the second overmind perhaps, but certainly the general overview about the UED and Zeratul's discovery - to explain what the whole deal with hybrids is about).

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Retroactive continuity (often shortened to retcon[1]) refers to the deliberate alteration of previously established facts in a work of serial fiction

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Kerrigan and Jims character was not retconned by any definition. He felt bad about what happened, that he could have prevented it, and probably felt like he should have known better than to trust her to not attack Fenix and the protoss in BW because of the whole infestation thing. Valarian offers a chance for redemption and Jim took it.

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Originally Posted by RussianSpy27

Kimera, I agree that governments abandon failed missions. Yet, here, UED is actually afraid of the alien threat. It's not merely an imperialistic mission that they undertook and then decided to abandon, but a move of a pre-emptive survival strike. Whether the higher-ups genuinely believed so or not, that was the official propaganda, so we can take it at face-value. You're right about the point that a full-fledged attack may not be the best choice.

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In the case of the UED, they have many more reasons to be threatened by the mysteriously powerful double-alien force that exterminated its expedition - even if they may not want to pull a Mark Anthony and engage in a full-sledged attack and be involved in more subtle ways.

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Yet, for UED to not be involved in any way, to disappear and essentially be forgotten in the sequel to BW would be to undermine and retcon the entire awesome story.

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Okay, I agree with that. I just don't think a full-scale invasion is in the cards.

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If we think about it, everything in BW, everything (except the story of how Protoss survived by relocating to Shakuras) had to do with the UED in one way or another.

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I thought it was a zerg civil war, with the UED acting as a massive wild card/spoiler force. But yes, that means the UED played an important role. :)

I'm more upset about Duran and Dark Origin only being vaguely mentioned, if at all.

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So what would I have done? I would have included the abbreviated BW story, in its entirety, in the installation voice (without details of the second overmind perhaps, but certainly the general overview about the UED and Zeratul's discovery - to explain what the whole deal with hybrids is about).

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I agree.

A person nicknamed "Magic" had done a super terrific job compiling scripts of SC and BW and providing in depth personal commentary that includes everything from literary analysis to word etymology. I think you'll enjoy it:

Starcraft: http://samods.org/175

Brood War: http://samods.org/195

~RS

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Originally Posted by RussianSpy27

Picture DuGalle's wife Helena, with a tear on her cheek, running to the President of the UED with a copy of her husband's light speed email as the only piece of evidence that surfaced after no one came back from the fleet. This in turn makes the UED government seriously fear the aliens and (not just for propaganda) send a huge retaliatory force back into the C.Sector.

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Yes. A woman with, in all likelihood, zero political power getting the UED to strike back. After the UED KNOWS what went wrong, and that their sole chance of controlling the Zerg went down with the second Overmind. They had long-range sensors they were studying the Korprulu sector with, they have the reports from the fleet up until the last Battlecruiser went down with all hands, they can do the math. At the moment, I believe that whatever factions in the UED that favored either a complete clusternuking of the sector or a more direct and unyeilding approach are reaping the returns on their position, and have enough political power to prevent another UED venture until victory is absolutely assured. Say, ten years, full production.

But seriously, think about your premise for a second. The ONLY piece of evidence that surfaced after NO-ONE comes back is the light-speed E-mail DuGualle sent? Hell, I think that would be the very LAST thing that would be sent via FTL transmission. A suicide note is something you have one of your subordinates or lifelong friends deliver. In the meantime, we know that the UED has the probes they were studying the sector with, and we have common sense telling them that they wouldn't send a general off to collect the ultimate weapon without keeping close tabs on him. He might be a little more political than you think.

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Originally Posted by RussianSpy27

To me, it seems like a very logical and plausible move given what we learned about the UED in BW. (If President Obama were to send an expeditionary force to Mars because Aliens were spotted there and no one came back, can you imagine the panic and arms race we'd have? But anyway, that fear was already shown in the ending of the Terran BW campaign, because it's only natural).

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If Mr. Obama has enough clout and tech to get us to Mars, I'd like to know why the mountains on the Afghanistan-Pakistan border aren't a smouldering mound of glass at the moment.

More seriously, if we land an expeditionary force of Marines on Mars, we would actually have satellites and spy cams orbiting the planet. The Marines wouldn't disappear into thin air, and if they did, there's something called a Relativistic Kill Vehicle propelled by Project Orion, guaranteed to make Mars an uninhabitable rock once more.

But that's not a good analogy, what you posted. First of all, we'd have to have a pretty good idea of what a third of Martian life-forms are like. Second, we'd have to be invading to seize an artifact that would control another third of the population. And then we'd have to know that the artifact ceased to exist, and the whole reason for invading is gone.

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Originally Posted by RussianSpy27

Moreover, if we look at "In Utter Darkness" mission. Zeratul states that Terrans are no more and Protoss are the only ones left to fight the Hybrids. If the hybrids came to anhielate the whole galaxy, wouldn't the UED be involved too? Duran, BTW, knew to stick to the UED right away in BW in order to further his plans.

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Because they were gullible, they didn't know the territory, and they had a cargoship full of dumb muscle to help him. And they could easily be played off the other factions.

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Originally Posted by Louis

Also, I really hope that Blizzard DO retcon significant parts of BW. I mean, c'mon, a psi disruptor on Tarsonis.... that Arcturus "but you said that revenge was secondary to the UED" Mengsk failed to find despite months of searching? Seriously? sigh...

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In case you haven't noticed, Mengsk's charisma is inversely proportional to how much opposition he's up against. Kerrigan balks at the use of Psi-Emitters, he directly orders her between a rock and a hard place. Raynor breaks off with a lot of his troops and his flagship, and we have his iconic "I will rule this sector or see it burned to ashes." moment. I think that Kerrigan turning on him much earlier than he expected, slaughtering his forces, and then killing his right-hand man is worth a minor Blue Screen of Death.

In the infamous words of Artemis Fowl...
"Lollipops!"

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Originally Posted by Quirel

Yes. A woman with, in all likelihood, zero political power getting the UED to strike back. After the UED KNOWS what went wrong, and that their sole chance of controlling the Zerg went down with the second Overmind. They had long-range sensors they were studying the Korprulu sector with, they have the reports from the fleet up until the last Battlecruiser went down with all hands, they can do the math. At the moment, I believe that whatever factions in the UED that favored either a complete clusternuking of the sector or a more direct and unyeilding approach are reaping the returns on their position, and have enough political power to prevent another UED venture until victory is absolutely assured. Say, ten years, full production.

But seriously, think about your premise for a second. The ONLY piece of evidence that surfaced after NO-ONE comes back is the light-speed E-mail DuGualle sent? Hell, I think that would be the very LAST thing that would be sent via FTL transmission. A suicide note is something you have one of your subordinates or lifelong friends deliver. In the meantime, we know that the UED has the probes they were studying the sector with, and we have common sense telling them that they wouldn't send a general off to collect the ultimate weapon without keeping close tabs on him. He might be a little more political than you think.


If Mr. Obama has enough clout and tech to get us to Mars, I'd like to know why the mountains on the Afghanistan-Pakistan border aren't a smouldering mound of glass at the moment.

More seriously, if we land an expeditionary force of Marines on Mars, we would actually have satellites and spy cams orbiting the planet. The Marines wouldn't disappear into thin air, and if they did, there's something called a Relativistic Kill Vehicle propelled by Project Orion, guaranteed to make Mars an uninhabitable rock once more.

But that's not a good analogy, what you posted. First of all, we'd have to have a pretty good idea of what a third of Martian life-forms are like. Second, we'd have to be invading to seize an artifact that would control another third of the population. And then we'd have to know that the artifact ceased to exist, and the whole reason for invading is gone.


Because they were gullible, they didn't know the territory, and they had a cargoship full of dumb muscle to help him. And they could easily be played off the other factions.


"Lollipops!"

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The part about Helena was more of a dramatic effect...oh well, I guess I did a bad job at that and the Obama analogy. Thanks for pointing that out...I should try to be better next time.

Anyhow, I feel like your responses do not disagree with my points.

What you're saying is that (1) UED Government knew about the defeat through more serious sources than a suicide letter (goes even better against the argument that UED is out of the picture because BW closing text suggests no one lived to return to Earth and tell the story).

(2) I am not sure if it would take ten years or less, but my point was that the UED would not be about to abandon the K-Sector filled with viscous, all consuming aliens, which they believe could attack Earth.

As such, to completely leave the UED out of the storyline is, in my opinion, an inconsiderate move to what was established in BW and should hopefully be remedied in future expansions.