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Forgetting balance right now. Why, lore-wise, would a DT cost more than a Stalker? If we assume that the price for warping-in is teleportation cost and not production cost, and if Stalkers are DTs fused with armor (without Warp Blades), Stalkers should cost more. What are your theories? (Other Gateway units can be discussed too)
you have to feed dts
last i checked protoss dont have mouths. lmao
I have no idea how that has anything to do with this topic sylvstelon. Nor did it really make sense...
Perhaps the constant psi drain that maintaining the invisibility overloads the circuits in a DT's armor quickly, thus causing their equipment to break down more often and require constant repair.
Perhaps the in-game 'Dark Templar' units represent elite fighters/assassins where as Stalkers can be made from any member of the Nerazim (the culture the Protoss from Shakuras identify themselves as)? That would make the former rarer to come by, and thus more 'valuable'.
dude did you just read the thread topic and not read the op?Quote:
Originally Posted by sylvstelon
well lore wise it doesn't make sense, balance wise cheaper DTs would be OP
however less gas for a DT would be nice to see, let's say 125min/75gas
That makes sense, although I like to think the whole 'the commander/Executor/queen pays a lump sum of minerals and gas and a unit appears' thing is just a gameplay mechanic, and the lore is somewhat more complex. Command and Conquer economies make no sense to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. peasant
In reality, they'd have to deal with wages (assuming the protoss have currency), arming and feeding the troops, as someone else said, treating them if they become ill or wounded, et cetera.
In terms of lore, that would probably make the stalker more expensive, actually. A cybernetic mech, capable of teleportation no less, probably costs a lot more to maintain than the ceremonial armour of the dark templar assassins.
However, if we go back to the wages idea, it could be that the dark templar make much more money than the stalkers, given they are basically going on a suicide mission every time they leave the base. They are invisible, but if they get caught, they're screwed. Stalkers on the other hand can teleport out of the action. Less danger.
While we're on the topic, since every mission is a suicide mission for the dark templar assassins, and the protoss are a very religious or ceremonial (in my eye) society, it stands to reason that before each mission, there would be some sort of 'good luck' ritual to send them off, which could be costly in itself.
I think the cost aspect of the game is less that than a representation of the value and scarcity of a unit (i.e. the more expensive a unit, the less readily available they are for deployment), and not a reflection of the cost of producing and/or maintaining said unit.
WHAT? You are all wrong, you must scout armory and then build zerglings to kill thor because thor is so slow. But if you get banelings hope he get marines.Quote:
Originally Posted by sylvstelon
/lolwhut off
Maybe they got more "dead" dark templar then actaully alive, they are more important to the race as a whole then stalkers are seeing they are like almost dead anyway they are more robots then actual protoss only infused with the essence of a "dead" dark templar. Immortals maybe cost more because they are still alive just got severe body damage so they need the exoskeleton to move around and use their experience as soldiers soldiers.
/non-researched based thoughts.
Maybe minerals and gas are like payment. A stalker asks for less money because he just wants to get some action before he dies while a DT charges more because he is more "valuable" and takes much bigger risks than a stalker (sometimes).
I don't imagine every mission a Dark Templar goes on to be suicidal, they are like elite covert ops in modern armies, good enough to get in, complete the objective and get out virtually unscathed (not in all cases of course, but they represent the peak of Protoss fighting ability (watch Zeratul taking down four Hydralisks in a matter of seconds) augmented with insane stealth capabilities to boot). Nor are "good-luck ceremonies" in the spirit of the Protoss, they're warriors, which means that dying in battle is a possibility to be accepted matter of factly, regardless of rank, or fighting ability. From a Dark Templar's point of view, the fact that he may not return from this mission, or the next one, or the one after that is quite mundane, an integral part of what he's doing as it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Muspelli
The question of Protoss economy is quite an interesting one though (haven't seen it discussed anywhere before). It's certainly different from ours since the structure of their society is much more caste and merit-based. I doubt they have currency at all. The Dark Templar (being a tribal, loosely organized society) definitely get by strictly by trade and personally negotiated agreements and promises, the Khalani probably have a strict code of values for various objects, which doesn't change much if at all. The Protoss don't get paid for fighting, and would probably be offended if offered an employment as mercenaries, since for them the defense of Aiur (and by extent of their race) is a sacred duty. So yes, the minerals and gas you collect when playing as Protoss simply symbolize your technological ability to warp in troops. The relative scarcity of the Dark Templar and their higher cost is purely a gameplay thing (like chess rules), what you see on screen is never a literal translation of the real battlefield where Stalkers are definitely the more high maintenance unit.
Why does a marauder require vespene gas, but a hellion buggy which shoots out flaming oils require no gas whatsoever?
It's their insurance. Since DTs are almost guaranteed to die when warped-in, you have to pay in advance for the life insurance, their salary, etc. to get them to fight. Most of the resources you spend to warp-in DTs are used to outfit them into Stalkers, and the resources you pay when you actually warp-in Stalkers are the resources needed to transport them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutaxilos
They run on coal, which is a mined solid (minerals). :D The combustion is pre-ignited with the gas in the factory. Also, as every Terran knows, no Hellion survives long enough to run out of coal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gifted
When I called them suicide missions, I meant they are, being stealth operatives, likely to go into far more dangerous situations than a front-line conflict.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eligor
But I concede the rest of my points.
I also considered the possibility that the cost is not representative of a single unit, but a group of each unit. A stalker is cheaper because the unit represents maybe five of them, while a dark templar i more expensive because it represents twenty-five. More resources to maintain the troops, something like that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muspelli
That's how I always solved for myself the problem of twelve marines taking down a battlecruiser. Every vehicle or ship is a single unit, every infantry (or Zerg) unit is a squad.
And the Thor is so slow and so huge because it's really powered by a very sophisticated Vespene steam engine (unfortunately Vespene gas also has psychotropic and hallucinogenic properties, besides making them especially feared on the battlefield it's also the reason why all Thor pilots insist on having powerful multicolour disco lights illuminate their cockpits at all time, they say it helps them keep a grip on reality). :DQuote:
Originally Posted by KDraconis
Because unit cost is a purely balance mechanic. In lore, i doubt that they even need to harvest anything at the destination, they only need the precise target coordinates, and they open a warp rift to the destination.
They need minerals to channel their psionic powers and gas to augment their Psi. It's not that different from Terran economy in fact, Coal and Drugs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Norfindel
They're minerals, not Khydarin christals. I doubt they inhale vespene to raise their psi. "Terrazine" does the trick, but that's special.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkalis
Do you seriously think that all of the 3 races can build stuff with only 2 materials anyways? It's a game mechanic and a huge simplification. It doesn't really means anything.
War doesn't works like an RTS game. You don't build factories next to the battlefield, so that they're easy to shutdown. You just transport your troops and already-built stuff there, and that's it.
Im guessing because there like specail troopers that need special training O.o
Because in right hands DT can be much more destructive. And talk about pure DPS too.
Quality of the Dark Templar. The Dark Templar we summon from the Gateway/Warpgate are likely seasoned warriors. We have no knowledge or confirmation that the "Dark Templar" that become Stalkers are valiant, experienced warriors. They could be low-level warriors that didn't make the cut, but their dedication pushes them to utilize themselves in another way. So, in some sort of reasoning:
cheap warrior + mech costs < seasoned DT assassin
So basicly you mean this:
Marauder = weak terran in armor
Stalker = weak dark templar in armor
Ghost = Strong terran
Dark Templar = strong dark templar
*In very simplified words.
I agree with Norfindel, its game mechanics.
Actually, I think the lore stated that those two is really all they need for basic construction. Factories can build units on the field, we just don't know how long it takes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Norfindel
Some RTS games make their build times quasi-canonical though, such as Command & Conquer. It only takes ten minutes to build a Mammoth Tank during the Third Tiberian War from a factory.Quote:
War doesn't works like an RTS game. You don't build factories next to the battlefield, so that they're easy to shutdown. You just transport your troops and already-built stuff there, and that's it.
If the lore actually says that I will cry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Archon
Unless it's from Shadow of the Xel'Naga. Then it's par for the course.
do protoss actually get paid to fight? i wouldve thought they fight because they have to, to keep their species alive.
I'll go with the Star Trek system: no money, you do what you want to do. No idea if that's touched in one of the novels, however.
By definition "minerals" is just a catch-all term describing any naturally-occurring substance of certain chemical and crystal structure; that includes anything from gypsum and chloride to diamonds. Even in the hilariously bad Shadows of the Xel'Naga, no one actually goes out and chops off pieces from giant crystal fields and turns it into a Siege Tank.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Archon
So yeah, count me among those saying it's all just game mechanics. It's the same reason a Battlecruiser can be shot down by half a dozen Marines.
marine with 0|0 vs 1 battlecruiser 3|3 and you will see how many you need ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupino
You gotta pay DT salary, while Stalkers only needs oils
Btw, Stalkers don't go for strike. ever.
Unless it's from the shadows. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by sulik
You reminded me one Vespene Laughs comic:Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutaxilos
- When are we gonna get our salary?
- ...what do you mean?...
- Wasn't it "My life for hire"?
- It's "My life for Auir"!
- Oh boy.
DTs don't even wear armor. They just wear some kind of tribal adornment that passes for 'armor' - in other words, primitive armor on scale with bronze or what have you.Quote:
Originally Posted by ooZer0
It's possible that each DT individually trains a lot harder and for a lot longer than a zealot to master their powers. Bending light alone probably requires a relative sensitivity to electromagnetic radiation (ER is photons I think).
A stalker could be a lesser DT, desperate to contribute to the war. To do so, he goes through some kind of 'making the ultimate sacrifice ritual' and has his body grafted to a robot, permanently making him a cyborg. So in effect, DT society is somewhat more sinister in the sense that they don't wait for protoss to be wounded (I always thought of the DTs as liberal while the khalai were conservative - DTs are all about freedom of choice and pursuit, ie. 'Severing nerve appendages in order to negate the interference the khala causes them when attempting to draw from the cosmos'. Khalai would like people to fall in line since that's the status quo and everyone is probably happier that way - khalai are more about contribution to the whole but DTs obviously have some heart felt connection with their place of origin too).
It's possible that DTs are fewer in number - they could be elite warriors in the over all society.
So in other words - DTs are snobs that are relegated to supply/demand for their services.
Minerals/gas that are spent to warp them in is effectively a bartering. Nothing is actually used for production. Kind of like how reapers require mercenary compounds for the terran. The terran governments probably don't produce gauss scythe pistols - otherwise, marines would have them and kick more ass that way. So, it's possible that gauss scythe pistols are a product of freelance enterprising and mercenary organizations can get a hold of them (I think reapers changed for 'special resocc cases' to just 'mercenaries' with the release of SC 2).
It's possible that DTs are quite like Jedi - they make their own warp blades and are allowed ownership of one once they've achieved a certain state within their centuries of training.
Zealots on the other hand, can probably fall in line after a few decades - but the best are trained for centuries (Khalanis, ie.; Fenix on the other hand trains just by being a veteran of countless battles).
Because those flaming oils aren't in fact flaming oils - but just chemicals converted into a superheated plasma?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gifted
NAILED IT.
12 marines can take down a battlecruiser because a gauss rifle can penetrate thruogh like a meter of steel. Also many spikes impacting with the armor results in surmounting forces that strain the overall tensile strength of the battlecruiser's armor itself. Eventually, it might leak atmosphere in its various compartments and crash and burn when the core reactors depressurize or whatever.Quote:
That's how I always solved for myself the problem of twelve marines taking down a battlecruiser. Every vehicle or ship is a single unit, every infantry (or Zerg) unit is a squad.
Of course, a BC has to fly like really low to let 12 marines hit him (marines can shoot up to 30 km I'd say - remember, gauss rifles fly so fast that air drag on each spike is diminished) - but that part's just game mechanics again.
In SC 2 - a BC can own 12 marines, stimmed or not.
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Nah... I like to think protoss use matter to energy conversion to warp in buildings. Effectively, by harvesting the right gas and/or minerals, they use it to actually construct a building out of nothing at all.Quote:
Because unit cost is a purely balance mechanic. In lore, i doubt that they even need to harvest anything at the destination, they only need the precise target coordinates, and they open a warp rift to the destination.
Of course, they used to warp everything from Aiur - but back then the minerals/gas was 'compensation' given to the khalai crafters on the other side of a portal.
But even since episode 3 (SC 1 vanilla) the protoss have probably had to depend on my former theory, since Aiur was under mass attack by the zerg - they couldn't depend on relocating buildings needed to supplement existing garrisons. So yeah, they had to construct them out of nothing with matter/energy conversion and then 'reconversion to matter' again.
It's possible that they actually create 'time pockets' which can be accessed via the portals created by probes, in order to accelerate the process of building their elaborate structures (the structures are built within these time pockets that distort space/time).
They also use robotics in this 'time pocket', explaining why each building of the same type looks the same - due to standardization.
Minerals are basically a generalization of raw metals needed for pretty much every industry.Quote:
Actually, I think the lore stated that those two is really all they need for basic construction. Factories can build units on the field, we just don't know how long it takes.
Vespene gas is just the 'new energy revolution' for fuel or what have you.
I imagine Battelcruisers to be small flying fortresses that can survive even heavy artillery fire as long as none of their vital systems are critically damaged. So I'm supposing those marines would need ample time to actually bring a Battlecruier down, still making it a pretty unlikely scenario (correct me if I'm wrong here).Quote:
Originally Posted by solidsamurai
A gauss rifle wouldn't ever been able to penetrate 1 meter of steel. Why do they even wear any armor? Just be naked, it's the same :rolleyes:
A modern APFSDS round designed to defeat tank armor can travel at nearly hypersonic speeds, have a diameter of 20mm, a lenght of almost 1 meter and a weight of around 25 kg. The armor of the M1 Abrams in the best protected part has around 1.6 meter RHA equivalent, and the round is said to not be able to penetrate at "close range". The round is made of depleted uranium (the same than *upgraded* SC Marine rounds), or similar density material.
Now, SC Marine rounds have only 8mm in diameter, and the magazine holds hundreths of rounds, so probably even the round lenghts shown here are too optimistic, and even then, the maximum calculated mass was 23g.
Sooo.....going by that very same logic a platoon or so modern day infantry standing on a beach would be able to sink a battleship several kilometers out to sea with nothing but their own standard issue assault rifles; all while said battleship is hammering away at their position with massive 16+ inch guns.Quote:
Originally Posted by solidsamurai
At any rate in terms of overall firepower, the c-14 is the rough equivalent of a modern day .50 cal heavy machine gun. It is nowhere near the omfgwtf man portable railgun o' doom some make it out to be.