Metzen and his team should retire?

Being irrational and calling for the retirement/firing of one of the original creators =/= "becoming impatient and sick of excuses for the poor story". Besides, more people agree that Mezten SHOULD NOT be fired/retired than do.


But, seriously bro, they've had the story arch for the trilogy for years now. I'm sure they've made some changes but for the most part its been there for a while. The comparison of "6 years vs 18-24 months", in my opinion, shows your ignorance of Blizzard's own statements as well as how game development in general is progressed. My recommendation to you is to stop bitching and start trying to be constructive. Firing Chris Metzen WOULD NOT help the series. If anything, the newer additions should be fired. Although, I do not believe we have given them enough time to judge them.

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Originally Posted by Gifted

I should just get a hummer, grab a few people and start a roadtrip.

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SHOTGUN!

Is this a serious topic, or are you trying to be funny?

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Originally Posted by dustinbrowder

Well judging by the poll its safe to say more and more people are becoming impatient and sick of excuses for the poor story.
Considering they had something like 6 years to develop a story vs 18 to 24 months now, things aren't looking too promising.

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Blizzard are nearing their 20th anniversary. If you think you know more about a creative collaboration process then what are you waiting for? Send them your resume right now, I'm sure they'll be really impressed.

they had soo much time to create a story, my bet goes that they didn't have everything completed one or two years ago

btw if you people actually belive in every statement they make than there is no point in discussion about this
simple example: what is the speed of battle reports - normal... NOT, I compared the speed of a BR and a replay after the release, those are not equal speeds (why the lie? because they were scared about people complaining how SC2 is not dynamic, BR normal speed in reality was the "faster") but that is completly off the problem we have here
Metzen and some other guys got caught with their pants down by a simple dedicated WarCraft Universe fan at BC 2010... if you make the lore than you should be aware of everything, and don't even get me started with how they "could not remember that or this"

I would like to see how the campaign building process looked like after WWI in Korea, I bet my money that they just throwed an idea, they left it as it was claiming that is ready, 1 year before the release they started doing something with it meanwhile poluting the air

I want to see fresh blood in the team, but it's too late to make any moves at this point
Tell me guys who was the worst actor in WoL and why? my vote goes for Kerrigan, which is the main character in the whole universe... this is how they cared about the story, they would hire Glynn if they would actually care, Glyn's voice samples in the productions were awesome

you want guys want to see epic voice acting and story in my opinion?


not sure yet? well:

honestly, I could just give links to walktrough's of both ME 1 and ME2

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You have a poll of less than 50 people, majority of which are saying "No, don't fire the people who CREATED THE STARCRAFT UNIVERSE.". By looking at your words, your votes could have went from 1 to 2 and you could say "well, more and more people are wanting to say no!".

Let's also realize that you are putting this poll on an sc2 website, you will specifically be targeting SC2 gaming enthusiasts instead of the general population who purchased the game. This poll, unfortunately, has no actual worth in terms of supporting a point.

You're also moving forward under the assumption that hiring a new writing team will create a "better" game moving forward.

Sorry Dustin, but I see a massive amount of logical holes in your mentality on this thread. I would jokingly say that I'd take a stroll through the holes.. but they are so large and are so numerous, I should just get a hummer, grab a few people and start a roadtrip.

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Sorry you feel that way Gifted, but its true, poll don't lie.

And I haven't said anything about firing the team, heck I've not said anything about retiring. I've asked a question and let it run, I've not come forward and written my opinion.

Having said that, from my second post in this thread I do imply 6 years vs 18 months doesn't look good for delivering a great story, that is true, but again I have not written my opinion about the question.

Dustin, you do realise that those 6 years happened to include creating a whole engine, the editor, gameplay design, a full rewrite of the story, levels and cinematics which they decided to change halfway through development and probably some other stuff I haven't even thought of yet?

I'd say that 18 months for an expansion with a few MP tweaks and a new part of the story is a very generous amount of time.

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Originally Posted by Louis

Dustin, you do realise that those 6 years happened to include creating a whole engine, the editor, gameplay design, a full rewrite of the story, levels and cinematics which they decided to change halfway through development and probably some other stuff I haven't even thought of yet?

I'd say that 18 months for an expansion with a few MP tweaks and a new part of the story is a very generous amount of time.

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As if Dustin and Craig wrote the story. It was a separate team and yes they had full 6 years. If they were writing 1 line per day for 3 years and than iterate on it for the next 3 years, the story would have been better.

What you're proposing is too drastic of a measure. I didn't voted because of that. However, if you made a poll about "Are you satisfied with WoL story and acting"? With options Yes and No, i bet it would be like 90% No.

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Originally Posted by dustinbrowder

Sorry you feel that way Gifted, but its true, poll don't lie.

And I haven't said anything about firing the team, heck I've not said anything about retiring. I've asked a question and let it run, I've not come forward and written my opinion.

Having said that, from my second post in this thread I do imply 6 years vs 18 months doesn't look good for delivering a great story, that is true, but again I have not written my opinion about the question.

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Thanks for clarifying this and I offer an apology for the obvious reasons. :)

Regarding the poll though, You _HAVE_ to know that it's just going to feed the trolls, aka Spychi in this case, until a close happens. It's not trying to get solid two sided discussion going on, from the moment you hit "post poll" it's immediate negative connotation is merely attempting to feed the "mob mentality". This is a tactic that ArcherofAuir absolutely managed to perfect before he took a break from posting in these forums. The only difference is that your angles are original and your own. I highly suspect it wasn't your intention, but I suspect it will be the result.

I will say that your interpretation of the data is skewed though, You're moving forward attempting to say that literally 10 people (ballpark) are proving a point in a community of millions. I can walk out on the street and say "Hey, who here likes cats better than dogs?", get 5 people agree and 20 people disagree and set the same standards for discussion that "cats are on the up and up, catching up with dogs".

Ultimately I'm just trying to make a simple point, you're taking data and taking it into a completely wrong perspective.

@Spychi: Blizzard changed the speed NUMEROUS times even after beta started. What makes you so certain they didn't do the same thing before beta?

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Originally Posted by dustinbrowder

Sorry you feel that way Gifted, but its true, poll don't lie.

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What? The only possible explanation for this that I can think of is that your English is so bad that you don't know what it is you asked in each poll option.

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Originally Posted by Gifted

This is a tactic that ArcherofAuir absolutely managed to perfect before he took a break from posting in these forums.

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I know its off-topic, but anyone have any idea what happened to him? Medical College got tough? I miss his structured arguments that lead to confrontation.

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Originally Posted by Gifted

Thanks for clarifying this and I offer an apology for the obvious reasons. :)

Regarding the poll though, You _HAVE_ to know that it's just going to feed the trolls, aka Spychi in this case, until a close happens.

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I am surprised that you called me a troll, while the definition of a forum troll doesn't apply to any of those post in this thread, offtopic and other threads yes but not this one

oh and Tychus how do you know that? because they said that? :p

Well... You are a troll. You have an incredible bias against blizzard and you try to back it up with facts; a flimsy mask for some personal conflict you have with them. Simply put, you're not really contributing anything credible to the conversation.

Not to say your opinion is wrong, but your views are pretty damned skewed.

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Originally Posted by Norfindel

What you're proposing is too drastic of a measure. I didn't voted because of that. However, if you made a poll about "Are you satisfied with WoL story and acting"? With options Yes and No, i bet it would be like 90% No.

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Good idea. Do you want to make the poll or should I?

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Originally Posted by Triceron

Well... You are a troll. You have an incredible bias against blizzard and you try to back it up with facts; a flimsy mask for some personal conflict you have with them. Simply put, you're not really contributing anything credible to the conversation.

Not to say your opinion is wrong, but your views are pretty damned skewed.

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let's just say that if a guy posts at a Blizzard fan forum and he is against them, he is screwed from the start no matter how much his arguments are valid, it's like christian fundamentalism; our god is the true one

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Originally Posted by spychi

let's just say that if a guy posts at a Blizzard fan forum and he is against them, he is screwed from the start no matter how much his arguments are valid, it's like christian fundamentalism; our god is the true one

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All hail Blizzard!

Rain down awsome sauce upon your believers. Bring us not to Valve, for it is the devil, and FPS is a sin.

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Originally Posted by Rake

All hail Blizzard!

Rain down awsome sauce upon your believers. Bring us not to Valve, for it is the devil, and FPS is a sin.

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You DO know that Blizz is working on an MMOFPS as we speak, right? :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Articorse

You DO know that Blizz is working on an MMOFPS as we speak, right? :rolleyes:

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I didn't realise that it was confirmed that was what it is under development.
Also: Joke.

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Originally Posted by Rake

I didn't realise that it was confirmed that was what it is under development.
Also: Joke.

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I know it was a joke, I'm just a buzzkill.

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Originally Posted by Louis

Good idea. Do you want to make the poll or should I?

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Thanks. Go ahead, you can make the poll if you want.

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Originally Posted by spychi

oh and Tychus how do you know that? because they said that? :p

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Holy ****, can you be anymore of a paranoid conspiracy freak?

No, I "know" this because of all of the the impressions/previews I've read written by people who played the game at BlizzCons.

How do you know there's oxygen in the air? Because they said that? :p

.. *sigh*

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Originally Posted by TychusFindlay

Holy ****, can you be anymore of a paranoid conspiracy freak?

No, I "know" this because of all of the the impressions/previews I've read written by people who played the game at BlizzCons.

How do you know there's oxygen in the air? Because they said that? :p

.. *sigh*

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I will rather stick to my "paranoid conspiracy theory" than suck their balls
cause it's my opinion and I won't change it, you can even call me a stubborn troll, it won't change anything
end of discussion

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Originally Posted by Arkalis

I know its off-topic, but anyone have any idea what happened to him? Medical College got tough? I miss his structured arguments that lead to confrontation.

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1. I don't know what happened to him, though it was around the spawn of sc2. I suspect he just went on to pay attention to other aspects of his life. With the amount of posting he did here it had to take a lot of his time.

2. Unfortunately with some witty research on some of his most "thought out" threads, I started to find a trend unfortunately. If you remember, the majority of his replies were more like "kinda random reply that was intended to egg conversationalist on". When I started to google those responses.. I found that in reality all he did was look over at teamliquid's thread's which he'd duplicate here, find responses that he liked and copy/pasted them over here as if they were his own. I have a txt file with over 35 posts of this in the "Blizzard Chatroom" thread over here, the REALLY large one. It explains why Demo got mad at him repeatedly for Archer saying something that was "on subject" but not "in response to anyone" while never replying to anyone at who asked questions.

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Originally Posted by spychi

I am surprised that you called me a troll, while the definition of a forum troll doesn't apply to any of those post in this thread, offtopic and other threads yes but not this one

oh and Tychus how do you know that? because they said that? :p

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"In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into a desired emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion."

I understand that you're sharing your opinion. But ultimately, the immediate reply said it best:

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Originally Posted by Triceron

Well... You are a troll. You have an incredible bias against blizzard and you try to back it up with facts; a flimsy mask for some personal conflict you have with them. Simply put, you're not really contributing anything credible to the conversation.

Not to say your opinion is wrong, but your views are pretty damned skewed.

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"You're not contributing anything credible to the conversation". While your opinion is your own, and I completely understand/respect that... the small bit that you contributed to the conversation was your thoughts regarding ME's writing vs SC2s. The roots of a troll is intent or tone. I see your intent is good, don't mistake me. But the tone is what's pegging you down.

For the record, I only perceive you as a troll in specific threads, such as this one, in other threads you contribute damn well.

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Originally Posted by Louis

Good idea. Do you want to make the poll or should I?

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Don't need to, it's been an off and on point/thread in terms of discussion. The question that might pose a better subject is not "did the writing staff fail" but rather "What qualities or traits contributed to the story not being as good as it could have". I know it is a simple change of words, but the discussion from the latter could be SO MUCH better than the former. Approach the "discussion" not the "sides".

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Originally Posted by spychi

let's just say that if a guy posts at a Blizzard fan forum and he is against them, he is screwed from the start no matter how much his arguments are valid, it's like christian fundamentalism; our god is the true one

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Naw, there are other posters who have repeatedly shown that despite them being against a decision that SC2 had included, they approached it with a way of trying to share their side while listening to the opposing side. Hell, we have giant articles, such as the battle.net one, that basically says "Hey Blizzard, nice try but you missed the ball and need to fix it". Constructive conversation doesn't have to be one sided... and it doesn't have to have hard lines drawn. Those are traits of a debate.

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Originally Posted by spychi

I will rather stick to my "paranoid conspiracy theory" than suck their balls
cause it's my opinion and I won't change it, you can even call me a stubborn troll, it won't change anything
end of discussion

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Just quoting this to show you where many would perceive you as a troll in this post. Again... intent vs tone. Your intent is to say "Hey guys, this is my view". The tone will easily mislead people from replying to the intent though because you elude that anyone who would disagree with you is "sucking Blizzard's balls". The subconscious of many people will read this as "It's my opinion, respect it cause it's not changing. But YOUR opinion, if it's different, means you are sucking their balls". In other words, if they disagree with you, you insult their opinion. That's where the perception of "trolling" is being perceived.

There are two parts to this question, and consequently I've got two answers for you.

For the fandumb troll portion, the answer is obviously no. As others have said, it's Metzen and his writers who are intimately familiar with the universe. In 9 instances out of 10, they know just how to progress the world forward ten years (thematically, visually) without compromising its identity. Likewise, and perhaps more importantly, we've seen from WOL that the teams know what they are doing. I can't emphasize this enough. Almost all of the mistakes made in WOL, and there were quite a few, are the kind that can be learned from and corrected in future installments. Legitimate, warranted, or not, they can be filed under "experimentation" and "trial run." You might not like that it turns out that Blizz was experimenting with something you paid for, but as far as an analytical discussion goes, that's completely irrelevant. We didn't like the choices? They can remove them. We didn't like the plot stagnation? By removing a choice-based narrative, they have the power to make it far more dynamic. We didn't see enough characters? They can invent new ones. We didn't see enough places? They can invent new ones. We didn't like the lack of interesting villains and the lack of feeling like Raynor is as on the run as he should be? These are all things that can be used as a learning experience. TFT proves without a shadow of the doubt that these writers (many of them the same guys) are capable of all these things. TFT wasn't that long ago. They just need to get used to the new environment and all the tools they have at their disposal.

For the non-troll portion of the question... maybe. It's not so much that Metzen & Co. need to leave, as it is that they need to get some new blood brought aboard. I'm not talking about your typical sci-fi/fantasy fare writers, people from Warhammer or Richard Knaak. I'm talking about genuinely competent writers. Hell, hire a (credible) screenwriter if you have to, the game's cinematic enough. There are quite a few things we've heard at BlizzCon or on the behind-the-scenes segments of the DVD that make me a little concerned. Things like when Metzen laughed at himself a few years back for being a "one trick pony" with the 'everybody unite to save the world from a galactic evil' plot, which is seemingly turning out to be the case yet again. Or when he mentioned on the DVD that the writers, being geeks as they are, had their first impulse to blow shit up and big, not do some romantic lovey-dovey stuff with Raynor and Kerrigan as they did (which is obviously what we want [not necessarily for it to be a happy ending, just for it to be resolved/continued in SOME way]). He's very humble and modest about his contributions and his role, and I respect that very much, but I think they need some input that isn't coming from the same 'geeky' angle, I think they need some competent writers who can twist thrilling plots together without resorting to the next-in-line on the sorting algorithm of Galactic Evils.

The fact that they had to RETCON the overmind, which basically retconned the original and brood war because they could not work with the existing lore already jumped the shark for me!

Hell, I've written fan fiction (I like writing, laugh at me if you want to) that worked with what brood war left off with and it was head and shoulders above what they gave us!!

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Originally Posted by broodmywarcraft

The fact that they had to RETCON the overmind, which basically retconned the original and brood war because they could not work with the existing lore already jumped the shark for me!

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Two things. First, it is still very much unclear what role the Overmind is going to play in SC2, and to what extent they are retconning anything. Tassadar's message was very, very vague. There are ways to interpret what he said that seem to compromise the SC1 plot, and there are readings that do not compromise it. I think that jumping to conclusions prematurely when the plot strand has been left deliberately vague is not in our best interests.

Also, a few posts on the lore forum have brought to my attention a few ways in which this could actually bridge gaps in the SC1 narrative which, until now, were huge gaping plot-holes. Why did the Overmind take a physical form on Aiur where it would be vulnerable to attack? Maybe because it wanted to die. Why did it leave Kerrigan, raising whom it had made such a top priority, back on Char? Maybe because her importance was in outliving it and, eventually, bringing the Zerg back to their roots. Take WOL's answers (or un-answers, anyway) away, and we're stuck with a narrative which we insist on viewing through rose-colored glasses and missing the canyon-wide plot chasms.

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Hell, I've written fan fiction (I like writing, laugh at me if you want to) that worked with what brood war left off with and it was head and shoulders above what they gave us!!

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I'm studying writing in university so I don't see why I'd be laughing. ;) Nothing wrong with fan fiction, either. I've written fan fiction that attempted to form a cohesive and compelling narrative out of the mess they made with Stukov, that introduced no new elements and instead created interesting ideas by re-arranging the elements that were already in play. So I know exactly where you're coming from.

That said, change isn't always a bad thing. And it isn't always a retcon, either. I suggest we give it some time.

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Originally Posted by spychi

let's just say that if a guy posts at a Blizzard fan forum and he is against them, he is screwed from the start no matter how much his arguments are valid, it's like christian fundamentalism; our god is the true one

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And you wonder why you're being called a troll? You're acting like a guy who goes around telling Christians how much their god fails them. It's one thing if your opinion goes against the grain. It's another thing entirely to make your argument and try to convince people that your beliefs are right and everyone else is wrong.

If you think fanboys are bad, you're no better being a troll.

Wait, the overmind was retconned? How? What I saw was the overmind turning Sarah Kerrigan into an infested woman child to use against the swarms unspecified enemies. If it was refering to the Protoss then she would have commanded her to join the Aiur invasion and it was quite apparant from dark origins and omega that the protoss were not the enemies Kerrigan was looking for. Also, the overmind seemed like it wanted nothing to do with her after the infestation was complete.

I guess you could say it's a retcon, but it was a retcon inserted into a plot hole so I don't see how it comes close to warranting the Simpons comic book guy levels of nerd rage.

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Originally Posted by Triceron

And you wonder why you're being called a troll? You're acting like a guy who goes around telling Christians how much their god fails them. It's one thing if your opinion goes against the grain. It's another thing entirely to make your argument and try to convince people that your beliefs are right and everyone else is wrong.

If you think fanboys are bad, you're no better being a troll.

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just the point of view, IMO you're radical, in your opinion I am radical

It has nothing to do with the difference of opinion. It has everything to do with your methods of expressing it. Read Gifted's post for a better explanation.

Everytime I read a new one of your rants, a question starts nagging me and that is, "Why the hell are you even here if you hate StarCraft 2 and Blizzard so much?" You've repeatedly said that you think Activision Blizzard is an evil company unworthy of our support (yet you bought the game :D) and you say that the game itself was a waste of money yet you regularly comment on it and play the MP.

Do you even actually believe what you say or are you actually just trolling?

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Originally Posted by pure.Wasted

I've written fan fiction that attempted to form a cohesive and compelling narrative out of the mess they made with Stukov, that introduced no new elements and instead created interesting ideas by re-arranging the elements that were already in play.

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And why didn't you post a link?

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Originally Posted by TychusFindlay

It has nothing to do with the difference of opinion. It has everything to do with your methods of expressing it. Read Gifted's post for a better explanation.

Everytime I read a new one of your rants, a question starts nagging me and that is, "Why the hell are you even here if you hate StarCraft 2 and Blizzard so much?" You've repeatedly said that you think Activision Blizzard is an evil company unworthy of our support (yet you bought the game :D) and you say that the game itself was a waste of money yet you regularly comment on it and play the MP.

Do you even actually believe what you say or are you actually just trolling?

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"Actions speak louder than words"

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Originally Posted by pure.Wasted

Two things. First, it is still very much unclear what role the Overmind is going to play in SC2, and to what extent they are retconning anything. Tassadar's message was very, very vague. There are ways to interpret what he said that seem to compromise the SC1 plot, and there are readings that do not compromise it. I think that jumping to conclusions prematurely when the plot strand has been left deliberately vague is not in our best interests.

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Well, when you consider the manual of the original tells a different story about the Overmind and its motivations than what we got in SC2, the retcon argument has more merit.

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Originally Posted by pure.Wasted

Also, a few posts on the lore forum have brought to my attention a few ways in which this could actually bridge gaps in the SC1 narrative which, until now, were huge gaping plot-holes. Why did the Overmind take a physical form on Aiur where it would be vulnerable to attack? Maybe because it wanted to die. Why did it leave Kerrigan, raising whom it had made such a top priority, back on Char? Maybe because her importance was in outliving it and, eventually, bringing the Zerg back to their roots. Take WOL's answers (or un-answers, anyway) away, and we're stuck with a narrative which we insist on viewing through rose-colored glasses and missing the canyon-wide plot chasms.

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Blizzard actually has three contradictory explanations for Kerrigan staying on Auir. In Starcraft, she stays to hunt down the remaining Protoss forces. In Queen of Blades, it attempts to explain this plot hole by stating that the Overmind wants her to come with him to Auir, but she convinces him to let her finish off the Protoss and he says that she'll join in after she's done with them. In Starcraft 2, she's considered too important to be put in harms way so the Overmind distracts everyone by landing on Auir so they'll focus on him and not her.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pure.Wasted

I'm studying writing in university so I don't see why I'd be laughing. ;) Nothing wrong with fan fiction, either. I've written fan fiction that attempted to form a cohesive and compelling narrative out of the mess they made with Stukov, that introduced no new elements and instead created interesting ideas by re-arranging the elements that were already in play. So I know exactly where you're coming from.

That said, change isn't always a bad thing. And it isn't always a retcon, either. I suggest we give it some time.

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The changing wouldn't have been AS bad had they not been so sloppy in handling of it. Queen of Blades VERY POORLY handled explaining the plot holes left by the Original Starcraft.
I've written up some fiction that FAR better handled that part of the lore, at least in not contradicting the events of the game itself.

And of course, the invention of the whole prophecy bit was just lame sauce all around. It was subpar in its writing and eye rolling in its execution.

There were a number of paths they could have taken to both continue the story and fill in the plot holes without inventing that crap, but eh, that's where GOOD fan fiction fills the void in my disappointed heart.

I think that Metzen should go back to personally writing the dialogue, if not crafting the plot. You may argue about his approach to creating story arcs, but he's a much better stylist than any other writer Blizzard employed, and the fact that the dialogue in StarCraft 2 is written by someone else is strongly felt. He was the guy responsible for defining the voices and speech mannerisms of Raynor, Zeratul, Mengsk, Kerrigan... He should be the one maintaining them, any other writer would do it differently even if he's very good and attentive at maintaining a particular style, and I am not sure that can be said of Blizzard's other writers. No offense to their skills or capabilities, but it isn't felt as if they're treating such things with the attention and seriousness they deserve. They should, Fantasy writing (on the whole) is perhaps more dependent upon style than any other genre.

In general Blizzard are developing an unfortunate tendency to shoot themselves in the leg and dumb-down the potential of the story through its subservience to gameplay mehanics. For example, when "The Frozen Throne" ended, Azeroth has been an interesting place with many factions holding their own unique interests and developing shades of grey in the story, but WoW with its "Horde vs. Alliance" paradigm and the need to make each and every player the Hero (with a capital H) killed all of that reducing all characters either to quest giving NPC's or boss battles and making the complexity of the created world a superficial one. Same thing happened with SC 2's branching storylines which prevented the build up of any sustained conflict or dramatic tension, and even stood in the way of character development.

Akira Kurosawa once said that the script is the most important thing in the movie and that it "must be able to pass fire and water". I believe the same stands true for a game. Just the bare text of the dialogue should be suspensful, exciting, dramatic. Merely reading through it should be a gripping experience that makes you want to know what happens next, and every single scene should contribute to that. Optional filler can be added later without much thought or effort from the writer(s), that's the wonderful thing about it. Unfortunately the script for Wings of Liberty is 80 % optional filler, with very little revealed, or built upon or happening with any consequences. And what is either happens to be barely related to the unfolding events at hand (namely the Zeratul missions) or is served in the very last three missions and doesn't constitute much by itself to begin with (Kerrigan is de-infested, now what?). I am not inherently opposed to a branching storyline in "Heart" if they can manage to combine it with a lean, self sustaining script. If the branching missions stand in the way of that, however, they should most definitely go.

So essentially I believe that if anything, Metzen should have more direct, hands on involvement with the script and he and the other writers must think harder, and approach the task of creating an exciting and gripping plot much more diligently and seriously than they did in WoL. And they should believe in the StarCraft Universe, and think twice and thrice and four times about who the characters are and why are they the way they are and what makes them and the universe appealing to people (the last is VERY important, it's the difference between that "geeky" annoying and superficial "Cool explosions!" approach and actually thinking about what defines a character/situation/place/object both on an inner "lore level" and outer meta-narrative "audience level") and why anything happens and whether it is interesting and exciting and moves the plot forward. In short, they should put more effort into getting it right, the hardest and most important task in world-building.

Metzen et all did fine on SC1 and SC2 to be honest. WoW expansions are a different story though, as Eligor adequately said.

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Originally Posted by Eligor

I think that Metzen should go back to personally writing the dialogue, if not crafting the plot. You may argue about his approach to creating story arcs, but he's a much better stylist than any other writer Blizzard employed, and the fact that the dialogue in StarCraft 2 is written by someone else is strongly felt. He was the guy responsible for defining the voices and speech mannerisms of Raynor, Zeratul, Mengsk, Kerrigan... He should be the one maintaining them, any other writer would do it differently even if he's very good and attentive at maintaining a particular style, and I am not sure that can be said of Blizzard's other writers. No offense to their skills or capabilities, but it isn't felt as if they're treating such things with the attention and seriousness they deserve. They should, Fantasy writing (on the whole) is perhaps more dependent upon style than any other genre.

In general Blizzard are developing an unfortunate tendency to shoot themselves in the leg and dumb-down the potential of the story through its subservience to gameplay mehanics. For example, when "The Frozen Throne" ended, Azeroth has been an interesting place with many factions holding their own unique interests and developing shades of grey in the story, but WoW with its "Horde vs. Alliance" paradigm and the need to make each and every player the Hero (with a capital H) killed all of that reducing all characters either to quest giving NPC's or boss battles and making the complexity of the created world a superficial one. Same thing happened with SC 2's branching storylines which prevented the build up of any sustained conflict or dramatic tension, and even stood in the way of character development.

Akira Kurosawa once said that the script is the most important thing in the movie and that it "must be able to pass fire and water". I believe the same stands true for a game. Just the bare text of the dialogue should be suspensful, exciting, dramatic. Merely reading through it should be a gripping experience that makes you want to know what happens next, and every single scene should contribute to that. Optional filler can be added later without much thought or effort from the writer(s), that's the wonderful thing about it. Unfortunately the script for Wings of Liberty is 80 % optional filler, with very little revealed, or built upon or happening with any consequences. And what is either happens to be barely related to the unfolding events at hand (namely the Zeratul missions) or is served in the very last three missions and doesn't constitute much by itself to begin with (Kerrigan is de-infested, now what?). I am not inherently opposed to a branching storyline in "Heart" if they can manage to combine it with a lean, self sustaining script. If the branching missions stand in the way of that, however, they should most definitely go.

So essentially I believe that if anything, Metzen should have more direct, hands on involvement with the script and he and the other writers must think harder, and approach the task of creating an exciting and gripping plot much more diligently and seriously than they did in WoL. And they should believe in the StarCraft Universe, and think twice and thrice and four times about who the characters are and why are they the way they are and what makes them and the universe appealing to people (the last is VERY important, it's the difference between that "geeky" annoying and superficial "Cool explosions!" approach and actually thinking about what defines a character/situation/place/object both on an inner "lore level" and outer meta-narrative "audience level") and why anything happens and whether it is interesting and exciting and moves the plot forward. In short, they should put more effort into getting it right, the hardest and most important task in world-building.

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Very well stated.


For those who didn't read it and would like a TL;DR... feel ashamed, this post is fantastic.

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Originally Posted by spychi

YES
nothing can repay me my lost money, the game supposed to be epic (singleplayer) while it's not, oh I like how they don't know their own made up lore for WC and SC as even the most geekest fans can question them ...

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Don't buy the game next time. Some people actually have expendable income because they have leveled up irl. And those same people don't care much if a product isn't perfect and they don't complain about a movie that didn't end up being a Godfather after watching it. That's why the Sims gave birth to this entire age of casual gaming. If you have a problem with it, get your lazy off of all these forums you rant on and go make your own gaming company. You know, do something with your life?

And to the above posts about Metzen being better suited as a stylist, believe what you want. He's just an old dog that's supposedly spread across several games and universes. Even he admits it's hard to realign himself after entering a room that's working on one project after leaving another room several minutes prior. Don't fool yourself. Metzen knows he's working under a strong brand now and he's a made man. Nothing wrong with that, just don't expect him to write Pulitzer-Prize winning story arcs.

And if you want to argue that Metzen somehow didn't influence WOL's awe inspiring fan fiction, just remind yourself who was adamant about not bringing the original Jim Raynor back and who kept the original Kerrigan away from the project. I don't have any problems with BSG as a franchise, but it's pretty obvious that Chris has a thing for blondes.

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Originally Posted by Asfastasican

And to the above posts about Metzen being better suited as a stylist, believe what you want. He's just an old dog that's supposedly spread across several games and universes. Even he admits it's hard to realign himself after entering a room that's working on one project after leaving another room several minutes prior. Don't fool yourself. Metzen knows he's working under a strong brand now and he's a made man. Nothing wrong with that, just don't expect him to write Pulitzer-Prize winning story arcs.

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Since when where fantasy and sci-fi genres where the Pulitzer Prize counts for anything? :D And especially if we're talking about adventure stories written primarily to be adventure stories, without an underlying social commentary or philosophical inference. There's a reason why "Of Blood and Honour" is the only WarCraft novel that actually feels as if it's set in the same universe as the games (I'm leaving WoW out of the discussion here), and that's because it's written by the same guy who wrote the in-game dialogue and the manual texts. He may not be the greatest writer out there, but it's his approach and sensibilities that gave the story and dialogue of the games their particular charm and appeal (which, though some may consider it modest, is undeniably unique*). All in all though I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say in that paragraph. If it's that Metzen's a "made man" and therefore has no necessity to write things personally, well, he seems to be pretty enthusiastic to me as far as storytelling and writing are concerned and to be enjoying it all, so I don't see a reason why shouldn't (or wouldn't) he actually write. As far as I can judge from interviews with him the overall story and the names of characters and their biographical details HAD been a group effort as far back as StarCraft, but with Metzen writing the dialogue and generally co-ordinating and overseeing the whole thing, so it's his "voice" and style and largely his "creative DNA" you get in the end. I don't see how his stepping back to a less "hands on" approach is a good thing, unless there's someone at least as good and as distinctive as he taking over, although of course it's perfectly his right to do so if he wishes. But it would be sad to see him go the way of George Lucas, becoming a sort of presiding deity over story and universe created by him but with steadily diminishing personal involvement as time goes by (and no other projects around, though I'd still love to read that futuristic American civil war comic he has/had? in the works (for years now)).




*And which I would argue to be important in the development of heroic fantasy in cinematic form, since what we had by way of High Fantasy in film before the age computer games is very scarce and rarely adequate, and I think that it's in great part to the credit of Metzen and co. and other writers and voice actors in the gaming industry that films like "The Lord of the Rings" enjoyed such a wide success later on. Most of the people of my 90s generation (those who didn't read especially) were introduced to Orcs and Elves not through Tolkien but through WarCraft (though Tolkien often came soon after in the same parcel together with D&D et al), and though you may declaim such games as WarCraft II or Lands of Lore as "cheesy and cartoony" from your high literary pulpit, it is undeniable that they got the spirit of the thing right, much more easily and naturally (and with a greater sense of fun and creativity) than any movie and many books. This all is admittedly something of a tangent, but since we're already talking about the literary merit of Blizzard games, trying to define their actual importance and influence doesn't seem to be out of place.

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Originally Posted by Asfastasican

And if you want to argue that Metzen somehow didn't influence WOL's awe inspiring fan fiction, just remind yourself who was adamant about not bringing the original Jim Raynor back and who kept the original Kerrigan away from the project. I don't have any problems with BSG as a franchise, but it's pretty obvious that Chris has a thing for blondes.

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Actually he was perfectly honest about both sides of the issue as far as Raynor is conerned (watch the 2008 BlizzCon Lore panel videos). And Clotworthy was kept as the original actor. As for the whole Glynnis Talken debacle, we still don't know who exactly is responsible for that and why, so please don't automatically lay blame on Metzen. Although that was an asinine decision whichever way you may try to look at it. Of course he appeared quite happy and enthusiastic about all of that, and still has a high opinion of the WoL storyline. But I'm sure that if they ditched the whole branching missions idea and "player immersion" pseudo-pro-writer talk and instead concentrated on creating a kick ass storyline, we would have just that, a kick ass storyline.

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Originally Posted by Eligor

Since when where fantasy and sci-fi genres where the Pulitzer Prize counts for anything? :D And especially if we're talking about adventure stories written primarily to be adventure stories, without an underlying social commentary or philosophical inference. [...] Most of the people of my 90s generation (those who didn't read especially) were introduced to Orcs and Elves not through Tolkien but through WarCraft (though Tolkien often came soon after in the same parcel together with D&D et al)

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You raise some excellent points. However, I would argue that a chunk of the problem is that "adventure stories written primarily to be adventure stories, without an underlying social commentary or philosophical inference" might no longer be enough. There's a reason WC2 was followed by LOTR and not the other way around. It's impossible to appreciate the full extent of what LOTR has to offer at a young age. If you read it at 12, you might pick up the environmentalist subtext. If you read it at 14, you might pick up on the Christian subtext. If you read it at 16, you might pick up on how conflicted that Christian subtext is. If you read it at 18, you might pick up on the undeniably British aspects of the work. And so on, to the point where my latest reading has opened up a whole layer of literary depth that I didn't even know existed in the book.

And then I go back to the WC, or in this case, the SC universe. Not after SC1, but after 1984, after Dune, after A Clockwork Orange and Watchmen and Battlestar Galactica. Which, it's very possible, have SC to thank for getting us into them, to some extent. But now we're grown up. It's not unnatural to want the SC universe to grow up and mature with us. It might be unfair (ie, "if you want Watchmen go read Watchmen") but that's only true if StarCraft continues to be "theme-less" deliberately and because those themes would somehow get in the way of a bigger, grander adventure. And I don't think that's true. And, truth be told, I'm not sure that Blizzard has the writing talent to be ABLE to discern whether that's true or not, which is, I suppose, where this thread comes in.

You'll note that in my first post in this thread I said that my solution wouldn't be to leave Metzen out of the equation (for the same reasons you describe), but rather to add new talent in.

Please leave "underlying social commentary or philosophical inference" out of my games. I read books for that. I want the story in the game to make me care about the characters and allow for epic gameplay. Social commentary or philosophical inference does none of that.

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Originally Posted by TychusFindlay

Please leave "underlying social commentary or philosophical inference" out of my games. I read books for that. I want the story in the game to make me care about the characters and allow for epic gameplay.

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Please leave "underlying social commentary or philosophical inference" out of my movies. I read books for that.

Oops?

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Social commentary or philosophical inference does none of that.

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You seem to be under the impression that I want argumentative rants that'd make Ayn Rand proud, and I'm not sure what it is I said that could have left that impression. Not all social commentary is intrusive.

Ever heard of Bioshock?