Further distinction for Terrans: Munitions instead of energy

So many abilities require energy as a limitation when it's illogical to do so. I'd like to propose a very simple idea to further distinguish the Terrans from the other races. Make many of their abilities be based off a set number of ammunition rather than energy.

Examples:
- Each ghost is armed with 10 sniper rounds.
- Each reaper is armed with 5 D8 charges.
- The Raven doesn't use energy to drop a droid. Instead, it must purchase any of its 3 abilities at which case it becomes armed in its hull and ready for deployment. Only one of each can be armed at a time.

When either the ghost or reaper has depleted their supply, they must return to a barracks to rearm themselves with additional rounds. If a cooldown is deemed necessary for balance then keep it. But with limited rounds it adds some risk and decisive action to make the most of them before you need to retreat.

In the case of the Raven, it can simply re-arm itself in the air whenever its dropped a droid. But it costs money and takes a few seconds to build once the cooldown has completed.

They already have this mechanic with the battlecruisers, to a certain extent. Right now I believe the upgrade path you choose for each BC is constant. Anotherwords, when you upgrade a BC to use Yamato it's always got that ability, and must now use energy to cast it. But imagine instead that you purchased a yamato shot, in turn giving it the visual upgrade to denote this. Once fired the BC returns to normal giving you the option to purchase any upgrade path you want...once you're beyond the cooldown.

Thoughts?

I like the distinction of it.

But I think it complicates things too much. Requiring a caster to go back to a building to restock I think makes things too complicated.

What if I just float a barracks and keep it besides my casters then?

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Originally Posted by Pandonetho

But I think it complicates things too much. Requiring a caster to go back to a building to restock I think makes things too complicated.

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True. What if it requires additional resources to rearm them, eliminating the need to return to the barracks? You simply pay for more ammunitions and they get it instantly. The price can be insignificant, but it adds another decision for players and again adds distinction to the race.

This could create some cool ability with the Orbital Command's Drop Pod mechanic...

However, I think only 1 caster should possess this trait, any more than that will cause a lot of unwanted and unnecessary complication with abilities.

Though, it seems to me that it will infringe on the Auto-build Interceptor ability.


-Psi

So we're purposely making Terran require more needless micro because... ?

Protoss and Zerg get to bring casters along who can regenerate their energy, and Terran have to retreat to resupply.

Yeah, that seems balanced and fun.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_gBSpMs6u-o...n+the+foot.jpg

I love it. I also approve the restock mechanic. This could also be a way to stop auto turrets spam.

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Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid

So we're purposely making Terran require more needless micro because... ?

Protoss and Zerg get to bring casters along who can regenerate their energy, and Terran have to retreat to resupply.

Yeah, that seems balanced and fun.

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Not necessarily requiring more micro, but rather changing how the money is spent. Right now all these abilities need to be presumably researched. Instead of researching the ability, I'm proposing you individually pay for the ammunition to arm each of the units instead of a one-time research. The money can be the regulator, instead of energy which doesn't make sense for abilities like snipe or "throw a charge".

Maybe having to return to base to recharge is a little silly, so paying for extra ammo once depleted makes more sense.

To me this unique method of decision making sounds fun. But I get it...you're completely against micro. No need to belabor the point with me.

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Originally Posted by Blazur

To me this unique method of decision making sounds fun. But I get it...you're completely against micro. No need to belabor the point with me.

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Except its not unique. See: Reaver.

And I'm not anti-micro. I'm anti-stupid-mechanic.

Hehe, time to take this to a new level.

What if the Sensor Tower can deploy a Drop Pod (to restock ammunition in an AOE, or single target) to any friendly unit within its radar scan radius, once it detects the unit has 0 ammunition left? Can be on auto-cast, but costs you resources or probably energy.


-Psi

The Terrans are already the most micro-heavy race. Almost every unit has a special activated ability. Adding this on top of that doesn't help.

Ammo makes more sense for the Protoss.

It's an interesting idea for sure, but it's actually one Blizzard basically considered back in SC1 alpha, and they determined, as fun as it sounded, that it created too much trouble and took from the fun of the game.

Also, how do you balance around that? Make the units cost less to begin with? More powerful due to limited ammo supply? It's a difficult thing to balance in an already difficult to balance game.

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea, it sounds like fun, but I think in the long run it's too complicated to work out in SC2.

Ammo makes sense in terms of lore, but not in terms of gameplay. Besides, ammo is something of a C&C mechanic (at least, aircraft in RA1 did it). The only time I could ever see this working would be with say, the Vulture and Spider Mines back in SC.

I had an idea like this for the Thor way back when as an alternative to the cooldown for the 'bombardment' ability - It would have to return to a munitions depot to reload it's bombardment shells before heading back out (this was when the Thor was built by SCV and couldn't be transported) During the 'reload' the Thor was immobile and vulnerable to attack.

The Thor has changed, and not fer the best IMO, but I still like the idea. What should 'reloading' entail?

It sounds like fun, but I really think it's too much hassle for too little distinction. Basically I definitely wouldn't want to see this implemented unless there would be some serious infrastructure around it. Like getting drop pods to act as "refills" etc... but then in that case you'd be back to square one (there wouldn't be a limit to spamming certain skills) but you'd just have to add some more random micro.
==> it would just be an attention sink that would extremely annoying to follow up on because you wouldn't know which of your units need a refill, and in the end wouldn't really serve the "limiting" function it's supposed to serve.
So yeah, back to my first sentence: it sounds fun, but doesn't sound like a good idea imo.

About your BC concept... I actually the idea of "binding" a certain specialty. Like when you upgrade a hydra to a lurker, there's no going back. That way if in ZvP a player upgrades all of his hydra to lurker, the protoss can fly in with some corsairs. Well it's the same with BCs: if a terran upgrades all of his BCs to yamato, then you can attack him with a fleet of small units and his yamato'll be obsolete.

the ammo being talk about here is for terran unit SKILLS only. why are some here talking about ammo being the normal attack of terran units, it would be insane to turn your around marine everytime they run out of ammo.

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Originally Posted by electricmole

the ammo being talk about here is for terran unit SKILLS only. why are some here talking about ammo being the normal attack of terran units, it would be insane to turn your around marine everytime they run out of ammo.

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Yes, that is what I'm referring to...ammo for skills such as snipe and D8 charges, not the marine gauss rifle or regular ghost attack. Instead of offering a global upgrade for an ability, I'm proposing individually arming units with ammo at their respective buildings, or with the unit itself.

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the ammo being talk about here is for terran unit SKILLS only. why are some here talking about ammo being the normal attack of terran units, it would be insane to turn your around marine everytime they run out of ammo.

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Who here is talking about ammo for normal attacks?

The Reaver :O

But that idea was scrapped, unfortunately.


-Psi

Ah, I might have misunderstood.

So could we have a unit devoted to supplying them, or a calldown from one of the CCs?
A BC that has a form that allows them to supply these units? That would even make sense, as a BC would be developed to securely transport goods and supplies.

At this stage I just think it's too late to balance multiplayer for that sort of resources system, but it's not a bad idea...could definitely be used for singleplayer and custom stuff.

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Originally Posted by ManjiSanji

At this stage I just think it's too late to balance multiplayer for that sort of resources system, but it's not a bad idea...could definitely be used for singleplayer and custom stuff.

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Completely understand. Just throwing ideas out there for possible consideration in expansions, or as a thing that might have been.

Like the Vulture. Do like.

In my mind: just do this to the Raven. Make all it's abilities cost minerals and have cooldowns. Simple as that. Make more of their abilities cooldown-based except for cloak.

Make EMP missile produced at the Ghost Academy like a nuke, nukes at the ghost academy, snipe on a cooldown, all the Raven abilities as mineral-based with cooldowns, leave heal energy-based, BC abilities cooldown-based...

That'd be my preference at least.

Abilities costing minerals is dumb. Don't turn the Raven into an aerial Reaver, it's a support unit with support abilities. I'm pretty sure Hunter Seeker will be nerfed from what it is right now, which is a pretty darned powerful ability.

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Originally Posted by Triceron

Abilities costing minerals is dumb.

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How is it dumb exactly...? It's unique. Completely different, and very purposeful.

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Don't turn the Raven into an aerial Reaver, it's a support unit with support abilities.

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The Reaver is a support unit too. But it wouldn't even work like that, it wouldn't be a flying Reaver. It'd be a flying SCV.

Nice idea on making each race more unique. However it would just require even further balance testing and micros. I'm pretty sure I'll be satisfied with the game as is.

I'm playing Starcraft to have fun or I'm watching it because it's interesting. This is neither and extremely stupid no offense. I like the name munitions instead of energy, kind of an interesting thought (even that complicates things lol, why change the name it's the same thing) but this is really bad game design

I'm not sure if someone else mentioned this, but I wouldn't want the mechanic only because EMP would end up being a TvP novelty ability. There's no energy for an EMP to burn! I do miss the good ole reaver scarab mechanic though. They really should bring that back somehow if they don't make the Raven's turret bought with minerals like the OP suggested. :)

I think resource-based abilities can be applied to Terrans but not as a blanket rule. Instead, it should be for a select number of abilities. The ones that come to mind are Repair, D-8 Charges (Reapers are mercenaries after all) and Auto Turrets (it is a defensive structure after all).

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Originally Posted by Aldrius

How is it dumb exactly...? It's unique. Completely different, and very purposeful.

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And Protoss. Carrier and Reaver both use this feature, and it's a testament to the Protoss style of great power at a cost. If minerals is a factor, it should be a factor for the Protoss, not Terrans. The Spidermine mechanic of limiting a few powerful attacks on a given unit would be more appropriate.

I don't think the limit should apply to current abilities, rather it should be designed with the ability in mind. I would like to see D8's and such be given a hard limit, but that would impact the usefulness of Reapers, and I see them as a niche unit already.

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The Reaver is a support unit too. But it wouldn't even work like that, it wouldn't be a flying Reaver. It'd be a flying SCV.

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You're paying for the turrets with energy, that's the cost. There's a difference between costing minerals and costing energy.

Minerals aren't softcapped, and the limitation is only as much as you pay out. There is no cooldown for creating for interceptors or scarabs, it's all about cost effectiveness.

Energy limits the amount an ability can be spammed in a given time frame. Once you use up your reserve of energy, the ability can't be used. This is a softcap that limits per caster.

Having BOTH an energy cost and mineral cost is bad design, since you're paying double the price, limiting burst creation as well as paying a monetary fee. It deters a player from using this unless the payout is damned worth it. But it's still really really bad design.

Also, to add to what Triceron said about impacting the usefulness of the Reaper, one big reason the Vulture had limited mines was because it's 75 minerals and easily mass produced.

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Originally Posted by Aldrius

How is it dumb exactly...? It's unique. Completely different, and very purposeful.

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Ya it's unique like the vulture. You know... The unit that was good at nothing after dropping 3 mines. Players, have much more stuff to do than "resupply" units that could die 3 seconds later. There is a reason why only the Reaver and Carrier had resupply fee. Because it was meant to cost alot due to their overpowerness.

Putting a cost on D8 charges = No more Reapers used.
Putting a cost on Snipe = No more ghost used.

And in the end, what is the "mechanic problem" behind the energy on terran? I don't think Reapers and other non-psi-users have energy else than Ships. But then ships like raven and battlecruisers don't use psi powers. It's real battery generated energy. That is completly fine like it is.

great idea.

blizzard should have thought about this 10 years ago.

for example the ghost should only have 11 sniper rounds at hand. when there is none left the ghost can refill it back in the baracks or ghost academy. Same for the emp battery its quite heavy.

imagine the vulture in can reload its spider mine in the factory. kinda imba but fun.

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Originally Posted by Bisso

Putting a cost on D8 charges = No more Reapers used.
Putting a cost on Snipe = No more ghost used.

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And putting a cost on Repair = No more SCV's used.... :rolleyes:

The act of placing a cost on an ability does not immediately mean it's useless. Whether it's energy, time, minerals or gas, they're all still costs. It's balancing it right that matters. For instance, if D-8 Charges cost 5 minerals a pop, dropping 10 into a worker line is economically sound.

As for any 'problems' with the energy and cooldown mechanics, there isn't. The point of the OP's suggestion was to create greater racial diversity.

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

The Terrans are already the most micro-heavy race. Almost every unit has a special activated ability. Adding this on top of that doesn't help.

Ammo makes more sense for the Protoss.

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"rechargeable" ammos WAS a Protoss mechanism (2 units had them). In SC2 they eliminate such micro mechanism.

I'd prefer Terran strongest abilities (D-mines, Raven's abilities) had just a set number of ammo. Remember the old mines in SC1? Vultures were build (thanks to an upgrade) with 3 mines. This was strong but at the same time prevent spamming the entire map with mines unless you built more units.
And they weren't able to recharge ammo.

This way there wouldn't be more micro, simply some more though decisions. Limited resources make strategic decisions more important.

I mean if you have a gun with 3 bullets and 4 enemies I suppose you don't shot the same target 3 times if you can take down 3 of them.

I'd prefer Ghost just the way it is (energy abilities) just because it has some lore-based psichic abilities.

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And in the end, what is the "mechanic problem" behind the energy on terran? I don't think Reapers and other non-psi-users have energy else than Ships. But then ships like raven and battlecruisers don't use psi powers. It's real battery generated energy. That is completly fine like it is.

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There is no mechanic problem, it'd just be for some more racial diversity.

As I said in my mind, the Terran casters should go:

Orbital Command: Energy, fine.
Reaper: Cooldown, fine.
Ghost: Energy for Cloak, Cooldown for Snipe, Nuke Silos for EMP Missile and Nuke. (You chose at each shadow ops building. EMP obviously being cheaper, built faster, and used faster)
Banshee: Energy for Cloak, fine.
Med-evac Dropship: Energy for Heal, fine.
Raven: Minerals and cooldowns for constructs (like an SCV but instantaneous construction). Maybe energy for all other abilities. (Though personally I think the Raven should have nothing but constructs.)
Battlecruiser: Cooldown for abilities. (In my opinion.)

But that's all just my opinion.

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You're paying for the turrets with energy, that's the cost. There's a difference between costing minerals and costing energy.

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Um what? When did I suggest that the Raven should have both...? I'm not agreeing with Blazur's suggestion, I'm just discussing Terran caster-use.

The Raven, in my opinion, should have all his abilities cost minerals IN place of energy (i.e. the Raven should have no energy, though, yes that does cause problems in TvT with EMP) And to make them not spammable, give them all short, fair cooldowns. And no loading capacity, just pay minerals whenever you use the ability and make a construct. (By the way I hate HSM)

I think that'd make the Raven more of a construction vehicle, using resources to build up some defensive infrastructure rather than just energy like every other caster in the game.

They did have it at one point, where the turret dropping costed minerals.

I think during that time they changed it to cost minerals because of the end game where the Terran would have the advantage when there was no money left on the map.

IMO, everything that is permanent and has an attack should cost resources. If it does only cost energy, given enough time, a Terran player can spam the small turrets everywhere, not to mention the problems that would arise when the Terran player has a Protoss player as ally. Obelisks recharging the energy of the Raven can really improve their ability to spam turrets.

If they cost only energy, i think that they should have limited life span.

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Remember the old mines in SC1? Vultures were build (thanks to an upgrade) with 3 mines. This was strong but at the same time prevent spamming the entire map with mines unless you built more units.

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Spider mines are about a thousand times better than D8 charges. In order to make D8 charges actually worthwhile with limited ammo, they have to make them much, much more powerful.

Also, Vultures don't cost gas; Reapers do.

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

Also, Vultures don't cost gas; Reapers do.

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Good point :)

I can support abilities on units costing resources, like Raven Auto-Turrets and Carrier Interceptors, as long as they are built in the field.

In no way would I ever support requiring a unit to return to base to restock.