Give the Zerg better detection?

Both the Terrans and Protoss have earlier detection than SC:BW. The terrans can now get an OC only after getting a barracks. And the Protoss Observer is available right out of a Robotics Facility.

Was there any good reason for the overlord to lose its detection? It makes no sense that one of the most adaptable races pull a 180 and make it so inconvenient to get decent detectors. Now they cant get it in tier 1 unless they get spore crawlers, which is still inconvenient. Here's 2 suggestions I have for the Zerg as far as detection goes.

1) Give the overlord its detection back, and in exchange, give creep drop to the overseer only.

OR

2) If they feel strongly about the overlord not having detection, give it to the queen. The problem with this is the queen already has alot of abilities, and it might have to lose something.

At this point, the Zerg are still the weakest of the races, better detection would be a better start to get them back in the game.

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Both the Terrans and Protoss have earlier detection than SC:BW. The terrans can now get an OC only after getting a barracks. And the Protoss Observer is available right out of a Robotics Facility.

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Oh Jesus Christ.

Spawning Pool -> Lair. That's all you need for Overseers. And you can build multiple at a single time.

The OCC is intermittent; scan is contending for energy with Mules and supply calldown. It's far from reliable detection.

Gateway -> Cybernetics Core -> Robotics Facility. 3 > 2.

The Zerg have the best, fastest detection in the game. Period.

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

Oh Jesus Christ.

Spawning Pool -> Lair. That's all you need for Overseers. And you can build multiple at a single time.

The OCC is intermittent; scan is contending for energy with Mules and supply calldown. It's far from reliable detection.

Gateway -> Cybernetics Core -> Robotics Facility. 3 > 2.

The Zerg have the best, fastest detection in the game. Period.

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I would consider the race's detection equal atm. They all have a form of turrets (PC, turret, and spore), and they all eventually get more mobile detectors later.

But in SC1, the whole point is the zerg had WAY BETTER detection. Its part of the whole racial difference thing.

IDK, maybe Im running out of things to talk about.

As Nicol already pointed out, they still do have better detection.

Terran detection can not be relied on 24/7 because there are choices to be made with MULES and supply drops.

The Protoss take longer than the Zerg to get their detection, and the Zerg can get them at any time in any amount.

While I don't feel brave enough to argue whether or not Zerg have better detection, I do have some food for thought...

Imagine how boring early-game ZvZ would if you brought the old school overlords back. Wouldn't detector overlords discourage burrowing completely? Would discouraging it be a good thing or a bad thing in the long run? I guess if roaches ever became popular in ZvZ, early detection could remove the tedium of roachfests becoming a little drawn out (roaches wouldn't be able to just borrow, regen and unborrow.) :) Keep in mind that even though overlords are still slow, they also cannot be attacked in ZvZ until hydras or mutas become available mid-game.

With that in mind, I would think Zerglings would become less of a powerhouse compared to how they were in SC1 ZvZ without early detection, so maybe that would be a good thing?

Even if Overseers weren't so early, Spore-Crawlers 'are' mobile, if slow.

I think they took overlord detection out because it almost invalidated stealth against zerg. The only viable stealth based strategies involved killing the overlords and therefore heavy investments in air were required. I think Blizzard made a good decision because this way dark templar rushes, ghosts, burrow etc. will be viable tactics.

Well like Dustin said the zergs were too "detectorific", I find it ironic at first but it's for the best of gameplay balance.

Does anybody know how much does it cost to make an overseer?

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Originally Posted by SoFool

Does anybody know how much does it cost to make an overseer?

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Something like 50/50 and producing time is I think the same as of Overlord, that is what I have heard, but I could be wrong though.

Is Comsat still in the game? It's still on the Orbital Command, isn't it?

I still think Zerg could use a few more detection units or abilities. Even an ability like Ensnare would be useful, which effectively revealed cloaked units.

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Something like 50/50 and producing time is I think the same as of Overlord, that is what I have heard, but I could be wrong though.

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17 seconds. Quite a bit less than an overlord.

Meh. Zerg don't need anymore detection. Ensnare is pretty useless as a detection ability (who would you even give it to? The Overseer? That'd completely defeat the purpose, the Overseer can detect.)

The Overseer is more than enough detection. If as a Zerg player you're not getting overseers, you're not doing it right. They're cheap and they build fast, and they don't even need a speed upgrade.

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Originally Posted by Rake

I think they took overlord detection out because it almost invalidated stealth against zerg. The only viable stealth based strategies involved killing the overlords and therefore heavy investments in air were required. I think Blizzard made a good decision because this way dark templar rushes, ghosts, burrow etc. will be viable tactics.

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I agree. Detection in every Overlord was too much.
If the Overseer is found to be unreliable, it could be made to move faster, or have more HP, or whatever is necessary to balance it, but never go back to detection everywhere.
They were cheap and very fast to evolve last time i seen, so i think that the Zerg players just need to get used to build them, and think about detection.
This change would allow a lot of stategies that were warranteed to fail in SC1, and so, would make gameplay richer.

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Originally Posted by Aldrius

17 seconds. Quite a bit less than an overlord.

Meh. Zerg don't need anymore detection. Ensnare is pretty useless as a detection ability (who would you even give it to? The Overseer? That'd completely defeat the purpose, the Overseer can detect.)

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Actually, why not give it to the queen again? Now that the queen comes earlier it might have some use, and it makes more sense than transfusion (its healing ability).

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Originally Posted by RamiZ

Something like 50/50 and producing time is I think the same as of Overlord, that is what I have heard, but I could be wrong though.

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Approx 50/50 yeah. But build time was waaaay fast. I didn't time it, but I really didn't think it was too long. However, I don't like the fact that only the OS has detection.

Also, just to get this straight, in this thread some people are arguing that the Zerg have TOO MUCH detection in SC1? Dunno, seems to be working as intended to me....

If things stay this way (and I expect they will), I just hope the OL speed upgrade will be pretty cheap, because honestly it's pretty to rough to such a key unit be a sitting duck in so many matchups.

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Actually, why not give it to the queen again? Now that the queen comes earlier it might have some use, and it makes more sense than transfusion (its healing ability).

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A while ago, I also suggested giving the Queen ensnare.

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Originally Posted by MattII

Even if Overseers weren't so early, Spore-Crawlers 'are' mobile, if slow.

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Do spore crawlers still detect invisible units like spore colonies used to? Can they do it while unrooted as well?

If overseers are the only method of detection the Zerg have, perhaps they could allow that new spore cloud ability to "tag" invisible units if they are inside or walk through it? I'm pretty sure there's no new sort of plague ability in the current build, correct?

According to the Wikia, yes, Spore Crawlers are still detectors.

One upgrade I have thought about is giving creep itself a half-detection ability (it can detect where ground units are, cloaked or not, except hovering units) for the player generating it (you don't get benefit from 'other people's' creep).

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Originally Posted by Crazy_Jonny

Actually, why not give it to the queen again? Now that the queen comes earlier it might have some use, and it makes more sense than transfusion (its healing ability).

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It's not the same unit. It just shares the same name. It's slow and land-bound, rather than something fast and airborne which you can have around anytime you need detection quickly. I disagree with giving the new queen the old ability.

Transfusion makes sense. The queen is slow and vulnerable, so it shouldn't be leaving the base. Transfusion allows it to back up crawlers without directly taking part in combat. However, it was probably more useful (if less flavorful) in the hands of the overseer, since you could use it to back up ultralisks wading into heavy combat. Now if only they'd give Swarm Infestation back to the queen...

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Originally Posted by MattII

According to the Wikia, yes, Spore Crawlers are still detectors.

One upgrade I have thought about is giving creep itself a half-detection ability (it can detect where ground units are, cloaked or not, except hovering units) for the player generating it (you don't get benefit from 'other people's' creep).

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Creep doesn't belong to any particular player.

The Spore Cloud providing detection would ALSO be pointless.

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Actually, why not give it to the queen again? Now that the queen comes earlier it might have some use,

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Not particularly, I don't think. It might be a little useful, but what would you replace it with...?

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and it makes more sense than transfusion (its healing ability).

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I don't see how at all. =S

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Originally Posted by Kimera757

Creep doesn't belong to any particular player.

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I know that, so let's just say, it provides semi-detection in a range around a creep-producing building, for the player who owns the building.

Why not just say "give Detection to Creep Tumor", it would be easier :)


-Psi

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Originally Posted by PsiWarp

Why not just say "give Detection to Creep Tumor", it would be easier :)

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That could work, except it would be, 'give detection to Hatchery', Creep Tumor might be too much.

Detection on hatchery would suck, you couldn't ever do successful cloak worker rushes

What about as a Lair ability then?

The Detection radius doesn't have to be huge. Remember the field around the Sensor Tower in the Terran gameplay demonstration? It could be around that size and still be balanced on the Creep Tumor.


-Psi

Here's the big question however: Why is there such a big need for non-Overseer, non-Spore-Crawler detection?

If it's against Roach+Burrow or just general Burrow-based harassment, it should be pointed out that Burrow requires a Lair and research. On the other hand, Overseers only require a Lair and can be produced en masse from the get go. Now, if your opponent has managed to have Burrow researched and have enough Roaches knocking on your door before you have managed to get yourself a Lair, it's your own fault.

If it's against the other two races, neither of them have particularly low tech cloaked units (relative to Overseers).

Do you mean Burrow requires only a Hatchery and research, not a Lair? Burrow can be researched from the get-go, I would assume from previous stats.


-Psi

A main building has a ton of HP, if you were to use cloaked units to harass (DT, Banshes) then your priority targets would be anything that could possibly detect. Turrets, Spore Crawlers, Photon Cannons. Air units would be a pain, but they are removable with appropriate AA. Comsat sweep is temporary.

If you have to remove a Lair to get rid of detection, it defeats the purpose of using cloaked units to harass workers.

The way Z v Wutever has evolved in Brood War, I understand the decision. In every zerg opening/build order now the only difference is between fast lair and REALLY fast lair.

The days of zerg staying in hatchery tech pumping until he has three or four hatches (Sauron mass hydra zerg) is gone, and the game's evolution to even more complex stuff that will tech even more important than it is now, hence no need for overlord detection.

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Originally Posted by PsiWarp

Do you mean Burrow requires only a Hatchery and research, not a Lair? Burrow can be researched from the get-go, I would assume from previous stats.


-Psi

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Sorry. I meant Roach + Burrow.


But if an even earlier, mobile detector is needed, what about giving it to the Baneling? This would turn it into a natural counter against Roaches, Lurkers, Ghosts and Dark Templar. On the flip side, players have to be extra careful that their Banelings kill all the hidden units since you lose detection along with the Banelings that died. This would open room for skill variation between players on both, the giving and receiving end.

Hmm, without being an extremely powerful and spammed passive ability, detection does sound cool on the Baneling.

Perhaps the Baneling's explosion can temporarily reveal invisible and burrowed units caught inside the AoE, much like Ensnare.

Though, comes the question of "Why reveal them, when you can destroy them in the explosion, using manual detonate?"


-Psi

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Originally Posted by Aldrius

The Spore Cloud providing detection would ALSO be pointless.

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Well it could still be an option for the player to use in a pinch. It could behave like dust does in WC3, by revealing units that come in contact with it for a brief period of time. Ensnare revealed invisible units in SC1, even though nobody ever used old queens anyways. DT's would be units that you would really want to pinpoint and reveal if an overseer isn't in the area.

Speaking of which, you can't really make it so creep reveals units to any extent, or else DT rushes would be pointless. Ghosts and enemies burrowing would be hampered, but DT's would really get worked bad.

If you can't throw temporary detection in by tying it in with an ability, then I guess giving the queen limited detection would be your next best bet. For now, I think overseers and spore crawlers are enough when it comes to units with built-in detection.

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Originally Posted by Triceron

If you have to remove a Lair to get rid of detection, it defeats the purpose of using cloaked units to harass workers.

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*shrug* Ah well, 'creep detection' was just an idea I had.

I think it's ok as it's now. If needed, buff the Overseer, but the Zerg don't need more detection that the other two races.

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Well it could still be an option for the player to use in a pinch. It could behave like dust does in WC3, by revealing units that come in contact with it for a brief period of time. Ensnare revealed invisible units in SC1, even though nobody ever used old queens anyways. DT's would be units that you would really want to pinpoint and reveal if an overseer isn't in the area.

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Er... exactly my point. Why WOULDN'T an overseer be in the area? The spore cloud is THEIR ability. Also it'd be the complete anti-thesis of what spore cloud is supposed to do anyway.

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I think it's ok as it's now. If needed, buff the Overseer, but the Zerg don't need more detection that the other two races.

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Well, not buff it, just lower it's cost/build-time. But I don't think that's necessary.

What if we give 'excrete creep' on the overlord more utility by allowing it to 'ensnare' units that are caught directly underneath the drop?

I had totally had typed an entire paragraph arguing with myself on whether it was a good idea or not. :p I might as well just throw it out here for you guys to tear it apart instead.

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Originally Posted by Kacaier

What if we give 'excrete creep' on the overlord more utility by allowing it to 'ensnare' units that are caught directly underneath the drop?

I had totally had typed an entire paragraph arguing with myself on whether it was a good idea or not. :p I might as well just throw it out here for you guys to tear it apart instead.

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No way! Excrete Creep costs absolutely nothing and comes free with all Overlords. They would Ensnare all the map!

He's talking about units that walk DIRECTLY under the overseer excreting creep.

In any case, overlords never stop excreting creep in one location until you tell them to stop.

Because Banshees and observers aren't ground units?

Besides, if you have an overlord around, 17 seconds and you got an overseer. Why drop creep when you can just do that instead?

Costs less resources including time :P

But the radius would be freaking small, like the Sensor Tower's from Terran demo.


-Psi