Re: Why was detect removed from Overlord? Why was there there in the first place?
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Originally Posted by
Wankey
Why is that wrong? It was fine for BW players for 10 years. Why the suddenly 180 because SC2 had it?
No, it was not fine. Zerg were balanced, but it limited the strategies you could use against them. Using dark templar was nearly pointless against a zerg base because they'd be spotted by the huge numbers of overlords which had to be there anyway. Furthermore, StarCraft II nerfed stealth in general.
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Terran has Siege tanks that out range everything. Does that seem alright with you?
Out-ranging opponents isn't OP as long as you can move, but the StarCraft I version of the siege tank dominated because it was by far the most efficient anti-ground unit in the game. Why use goliaths or marines for GtG damage? Terran metal became an over-used strategy. In StarCraft II, siege tanks were nerfed and are less efficient than marauders.
Furthermore, it takes a certain amount of teching to reach siege tanks. In StarCraft II, siege tanks are really expensive too.
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Having detection and not having detection is the same as shooting up cliffs and not being able to. It's just a gameplay mechanic. I don't see right or wrong to that.
You'll notice that, since maps are mirrored, if one player has to shoot up a cliff, so does the other.
Re: Why was detect removed from Overlord? Why was there there in the first place?
Spore Crawlers can move, you know, and have a fairly intimidating 11 detection range. They are available around the same time as incoming stealth units and don't cost that much. If you're being 'stealthed' as Zerg then the opponent is investing serious gas in those stealth units or the research for them, it's not a big deal to plunk down one or two Spores and render the strategy useless.
As to the question... what would be the point of any stealth play (included; Burrowed units from Nydus, DT harass, cloaked Banshee harass) if just planting a single T1 cheap unit everywhere you suspect stealth can nullify it? Additionally, Overlords are really quite durable (compared to Turrets etc) and are Armoured Air, which places them outside of most low-Tier units' capabilities to counter. With Carapace they can even just run away when threatened.
The Overseer I thought was a neat sidestep to the issue, requiring a gas and time investment to match the gas and time investment in the stealth play. Neglecting the investment allows the stealth strategy to pay off, which is how it should work. If I play T and don't build any Turrets at my expansions, I can't cry foul when they get slapped down by burrowed Roaches or DTs. I'm a bit sore that the only mobile detection I get as a Terran is a rather expensive and fragile Raven, but I understand the balance decision.
Re: Why was detect removed from Overlord? Why was there there in the first place?
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Originally Posted by
Slyph
Spore Crawlers can move, you know, and have a fairly intimidating 11 detection range.
On the other hand, they require slightly more tech and cost money. (So do overlords, but you'd pay just for the control; the detection was a free bonus.) They also take a fairly long time to burrow in, so unless you've ringed each expansion with them there are ways past them, with decent scouting.
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The Overseer I thought was a neat sidestep to the issue, requiring a gas and time investment to match the gas and time investment in the stealth play. Neglecting the investment allows the stealth strategy to pay off, which is how it should work.
On this I agree. They're also more mobile than spore crawlers, so I can cover any part of the base once the stealth attacks register.
Re: Why was detect removed from Overlord? Why was there there in the first place?
Actually overlords didn't lose detection. Protoss and Terran stealth tech improved in the time between bw and wol so the Zerg had to compensate with the overseer.
Re: Why was detect removed from Overlord? Why was there there in the first place?
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Originally Posted by
SinsWage
Actually overlords didn't lose detection. Protoss and Terran stealth tech improved in the time between bw and wol so the Zerg had to compensate with the overseer.
This > Every other argument.
Re: Why was detect removed from Overlord? Why was there there in the first place?
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Originally Posted by
Wankey
Why is that wrong? It was fine for BW players for 10 years. Why the suddenly 180 because SC2 had it?
Terran has Siege tanks that out range everything. Does that seem alright with you?
Having detection and not having detection is the same as shooting up cliffs and not being able to. It's just a gameplay mechanic. I don't see right or wrong to that.
Do they start with Siege Tanks that outrange everything? Does the game boot up and you have those? I don't think so.
And BW players were not "fine" with it at all for 10 years, they simply didn't use STEALTH UNITS against Zerg until Bisu broke the mold, and it took extraordinary, rare talent to do it, that was in what? 2006? That's how long it took to make cloak against Zerg? You're arguing that eliminating an entire facet of the game for ONE race, from the very second the game begins is "A-OK"!?
Seriously people, "because it was in Brood War" is NOT a valid argument. The game is not some perfect divine creation, being handed down from on high. It was full of flaws. Wake up.
Re: Why was detect removed from Overlord? Why was there there in the first place?
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Originally Posted by
SinsWage
Actually overlords didn't lose detection. Protoss and Terran stealth tech improved in the time between bw and wol so the Zerg had to compensate with the overseer.
That and Burrowed Zergs have become more evolved so that Overlords can no longer spot them only Overseers
Re: Why was detect removed from Overlord? Why was there there in the first place?
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Originally Posted by
SaharaDrac
Because Zerg started the game with detection....? Does that seem alright to you?
Amazingly, Dark Templars are a lot less useful in SC2. Dark Templars and Corsairs would really devastate a Zerg.
Re: Why was detect removed from Overlord? Why was there there in the first place?
Dark Templars are incredibly OP and incredibly UP at the same time. They are on the same tipping scale as Reaper and thus need to be tweaked a lot. Too situational and doesn't really stand by itself.
Re: Why was detect removed from Overlord? Why was there there in the first place?
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Originally Posted by
Wankey
Dark Templars are incredibly OP and incredibly UP at the same time. They are on the same tipping scale as Reaper and thus need to be tweaked a lot. Too situational and doesn't really stand by itself.
Every single thing you just said about DT is true in SC1. Is your little world crumbling?
