Expansion Units

@DSquid: For someone who I 2v1'd late at night, after a hard work out, with sore forearms, and not in the mood for competition, you sure try to make me out to be a fool.

Maybe, just maybe, you don't understand the game as much as you think you do considering your skills in the game are quite lacking. You're just a low gold (you're probably lower since you haven't played enough games to balance out) but you seem to think you're in the Master league. All you really do is complain about such and such imbalance because you can't use them or can't fight them and then get offended when someone with more skill than you has learned different. I mean, seriously, you massed NOTHING but Stalkers the entire game despite the fact that I had tons of Mauraders and Ghosts constantly EMPing you. You know very little of counters or what works when.

Tychus, I've never played you. Ever.

Really? See attachment.

Despite it being one of the most awkward games in my gaming career (because of mental tiredness and forearm soreness) you were not a challenge at all. No, I wasn't even playing good so this isn't bragging. Hell, I raised my barracks to make tech labs but instead accidentally made more reactors about twelve times. I never do that in a game I'm playing serious. I also never rush to nukes. But, somehow, that worked to great affect.

Simply put, and without sinking to your level of insults, your strategy, unit choice, and timing were completely wrong. I hate to be rude/blunt but you need it. You know nothing about this game and it's a shame that so few people have played with you or else everyone else would know how limited your knowledge is of this game. You are not a master. You are not Skyze. Yet you act like Skyze and others superior to you don't know what they're talking about. Stop arguing with people who know more than you. Arrogance is one thing, and it's a quality of you I can almost appreciate, but what you're doing is pure stupidity.

Tychus, I have never ever played you. There are about 999 Cthulhu's running around battle.net.

Are you that embarassed that you're going to try to deny everything? Normally, I'd let it go because I don't care but it seems it's gotten to the point that you need something like this to help you grow as a person. If that's not you, answer me this:

How many Cthulu's are there that have befriended Gradius and Sarov? I also played with you when I was gaming with Sarov. I know you. I know your playstyle, your stategies, and your quickness to blame others for how the game is going despite the fact that you are doing nothing to make it better. You even used jokes in that game that you use on this forum ("I transitoned into losing my base"). You even went on about how you hate Sahara's attitude and Crota's voice (Sorry if either of you read this :() There may be tons of Cthulu's but none of them are friends with Gradius, Sarov, use your jokes, frequents SCL and talks about forum politics, and constantly insults commentators.

It was you. There's no denying it.

Ok, I just watched the replay. Yes, thats me. I wasn't aware your ID was DecardLee, thought I was playing someone I didn't hate. Nice nukes btw. In a non-serious game, late at night. Good job.

Finally.

Now, riddle me this. Being of the skill level you are, why do you constantly argue with even a person who has been a progaming coach and been on the top 200. You don't have to answer. I don't want this to go on any longer. I just want you to think about that.

I've heard of inflated egos. I even have one. But, you, you have a serious reason malfunction.

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Originally Posted by TychusFindlay

Finally.

Now, riddle me this. Being of the skill level you are, why do you constantly argue with even a person who has been a progaming coach and been on the top 200.

I've heard of inflated egos. I even have one. But, you, you just have something seriously wrong.

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Why do I argue with you? Because nearly everyone else in this thread has agreed with me the Viking is OK as is. Doh.

Man, who knew debating on a forum was wrong.

I never said there was anything wrong with the Viking. You made the Viking out to be some Immortal vs Roach level of counter. I simply explained how it wasn't. Besides, popular opinions mean nothing. I could be the only person on this forum who says something and still be right. It's unlikely but still possible. It's funny how you go on and on about how stupid the average person is and how popular opinion is wrong, yet, when it suits you, you don't hesitate to use that leverage.

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Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid

The Viking is good enough against Mutas as is. It does damn well if you're the kind of prude who absolutely refuses to build Thors, and still makes Marines. That's all there is to it.

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Yeah, Immortal and Roach right there.

*sigh*

I was referring to this statement:

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Quite frankly, the Viking just fucking owns. Cheap, can be produced in pairs, and a strong long ranged attack. If you're having trouble with Mutas, skip the Thor and just get more Vikings. It really is a flying Goliath.

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To which I said, basically, "You can counter Vikings with Mutalisks if you use them right, but, even if you couldn't, your ground army would destroy them either way".

What say you to this?

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Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid

Man, who knew debating on a forum was wrong.

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You aren't debating. You're seeing something that doesn't COMPLETELY agree with you and then insulting that person or casting their arguments aside because they're "trolling nonsense". That's not debating. That's living in your own little world and not letting anything challenge your arrogance. No wonder you're so unhappy and have to take it out on others :(

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Originally Posted by TychusFindlay

*sigh*

I was referring to this statement:

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Oh, that one. Suggesting substituting Vikings for Thors to have a more mobile but more fragile army is a terrible idea.

Wait, no its not.

And just for clarification, in that 2v2, I kept building Stalkers because I was feeding them to Gradius with shared control so he could micro them along with his own. And it worked. Well played.

... It didn't work ....

Ignoring the laziness of letting you kill my expansions instead of sending my units 4 ft away to defend it (saving them would ensure a longer game which I did not want) and the constant accidental reactor making lulz, I gave up due to my strong desire to sleep. I had fully expected the rush to fail and then to be overrun. However, I was not. I only joined the game to have a nice conversation with my good friend Gradius.

Back on the Vikings thing, you said "Viking just fucking owns". It doesn't. At all. Besides, I don't think I've ever seen a single progamer rely on Vikings for their AA. But, I guess you would know better than them, wouldn't you :D

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Originally Posted by TychusFindlay

Back on the Vikings thing, you said "Viking just fucking owns". It doesn't. At all. Besides, I don't think I've ever seen a single progamer rely on Vikings for their AA. But, I guess you would know better than them, wouldn't you :D

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Vikings are a staple unit in TvT and TvP. They are less seen in TvZ because hey, Thors. That doesn't mean they blow there though. Your logic is a farce.

For the Zergs, as long as its a unit that can be spawned from another unit, I'm all for it (lurker, Infested Terran, Broodlord). Its perfectly in tune with Zerg lore (the emphasis on evolution), you can chose the location you desire, and more importantly, it saves larva. This mechanic got great strategical dept.

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Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid

Vikings are a staple unit in TvT and TvP. They are less seen in TvZ because hey, Thors. That doesn't mean they blow there though. Your logic is a farce.

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Go ahead and use your mass Vikings in the lower leagues if you want. You can pretty much do anything you want there. But, when you start playing mid-Gold, you'll know why you're losing (if you even play Terran).

Sorry for interrupting the the troll subtopic ...

Back to expansion units suggestions:

Cloaked zerg... Lurker (I still love it) or something new would come in handy. Both Terrans & Protoss have powerful cloaked unit which is capable to end-game or to save-arse. I know I can burrow my Banelings or I can burrow my entire army, move my roaches underground cetra, but zerg still lacks cloaked unit that can attack while it is cloaked/invisible/burrowed...

Tier 1.5 AA for zerg. Yeah, zergy again. At the current moment the swarm is dependent on getting static defense via evo chamber or via queens and both of those are not a real AA counter especially when attempting to attack. Both Protoss and Terran have viable options in early AA counter (marines, stalkers) which resides on tier 1/1.5. This new unit might have restrictions to minimal range (e.g. cannot attack air units directly above them).

About our beloved Protoss - what would you think about a new ground armored caster unit (not necessary new or old) with the following set of skills: instant kill of ground biological unit (100 to 150 energy), halting defense (stopping targeted static defense building from operation for X seconds) and reflect damage skill...

Regards,
Arcopix

Tychus and DS: i think yuore both talking past eachother and generally failing to argue the point instead of the person.

there is interpretation to be made in either directions for points youre trying to make;

DS saying vikigns are a staple unit: i agree! they are used extenively to shoot down colossi and to wage for air control to allow spotting for tanks in TvT, and hes obviously also correct in that they are less prominent vs Zerg due to thors and whatnot. ofcoruse, its more complicated than that, but i have no reason to assume he or anyone reading his post dont get that.

Sadly however, Tycus is too buisy arguing the person and the fact that he "sucks at the game" that there is no pause to consdier possible intepretation of DS arguemtns that are actually reasonable.



to the point: yes, mutas can counter vikings. in a vakuum they will do it quite effectively. but in real situations there are typically marines and maybe even thors around to complicate things, while a viking user will never engage a superior count of mutas head-on or even venture too far out of ground cover.

Vikings are mostly a minor disturbance for the zerg 'till it starts craving broodlords. by then, the means of dealing with any vikings is quite situational

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Originally Posted by Todie

DS saying vikigns are a staple unit

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No, he's not. He's saying they "fucking own" Mutalisks which is far from the truth. I was simply arguing my point. I only went off on other side things because he said that I "was trolling nonsense" and it annoys me how he can argue with top ladder players (not me) when he plays a game every once in a blue moon and is a lower league.

You misunderstand the conversation and have only read his back pedaling. Read what he said before he started to try to change his tone. Also, TvT and TvP are irrelevant to the conservation concerning "Mutalisks vs Vikings". Why do people keep bringing it up?

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Vikings are mostly a minor disturbance for the zerg 'till it starts craving broodlords.

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So they aren't instant win against Mutalisks? So you agree with me? What's the purpose of your post? You need to read from the beginning; not just the side steps that came after I showed him his fallacy and others disagreed with him.

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Originally Posted by TychusFindlay

So they aren't instant win against Mutalisks? So you agree with me? What's the purpose of your post? You need to read from the beginning; not just the side steps that came after I showed him his fallacy and others disagreed with him.

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Just because he says that " they are a minor disturbance for zerg until BL's ", doesn't meaning he's agreeing with anyone. He's simply stating a fact.

On topic : I really hope that additional unit's adding to the game, will make mirror matchups more... exiting.
I mainly think about PvP here ( But from what i hear, ZvZ and TvT are just as boring, even though i like watching TvT. ). Right now, the matchup is solely about colossus, and it rarely even gets to that point because of 4 gates etc.
A solid counter to the colussus, and in general more possibilities gameplay would make the matchup much more interesting.

So, i'm hoping for some super single target DPS unit.

When he's "simply stating a fact" that I stated as well he's agreeing with me.

And, now, this should end.

I, too, am hoping the new units aim to make mirror match ups more engaging. TvT is very dynamic and there's so many different paths. I hope the others can be like this too. Not sure it's possible, though, given the other race's traits.

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Originally Posted by TychusFindlay

No, he's not. He's saying they "fucking own" Mutalisks which is far from the truth. I was simply arguing my point. I only went off on other side things because he said that I "was trolling nonsense" and it annoys me how he can argue with top ladder players (not me) when he plays a game every once in a blue moon and is a lower league.

You misunderstand the conversation and have only read his back pedaling. Read what he said before he started to try to change his tone. Also, TvT and TvP are irrelevant to the conservation concerning "Mutalisks vs Vikings". Why do people keep bringing it up?

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i did read the whole thing before posting.

I think its quite obvious that both remarks youre taking issue with are sensationalistic hyperboles; "vikings own" and "you are trolling nonsense"

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So they aren't instant win against Mutalisks? So you agree with me? What's the purpose of your post? You need to read from the beginning; not just the side steps that came after I showed him his fallacy and others disagreed with him.

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It appears, to you its all about whos right and whos wrong? ; what im saying is that there is no glaring contradiction in what you are saying and what DS is saying (at least the underlying meaning of it) ... the original point of that discussion was that vikings are fine vs mutas as is; they can actually be helpful (only with marines, only in moderation & esp in situations when they're more acessible than Thors, etc..)
... thats a relevant point considering the suggestion made earlier:

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Originally Posted by Blasterion

I know! give Vikings a research for Valkyrian Missile Array, gives the vikings a new attack vs light units, (attack effect similar to Valkyries in BW) only used against light Air

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.. A suggestion so bad that im not sure if it was serious at all.


as for the trolling nonsense one way or the other, i best not meddle with it at all. let me just say, Silly.



as to get on-topic, personally i feel seriously uninspired; the current metagame has become so real to me that whenever i see a suggestion or think of something, it feels like this something would be sure to trash the metagame completely. but thats actually fine as an ex-pack can be allowed to largely revamp the metagame and innovations on all sides can balance each-other out..


even so, i havnt particularly liked an idea posted here that i can recall...

i think we need to get back to basics; improve on basic racial mechanics. sharing or boosted regeneration or max value of P shield / energy values?

one or two new queen abilities; one to make her walk faster off-creep? (costing 50-75 energy or 25+draining energy like T cloak)

its harder to think of something new for T; it feels lie whatever gimmick i think of, it'll surely overlap with something they already have and also, part of me is like "they dont need more" ... but is that fair at all? ..... i guess they should get some new OC ability at least, but what??
(for the record, waypoint drop-pods as mentioned earlier in this thread, would in my humble opinion be ridiculously hard to balance/ massively overpowered; warpin on steroids indeed)


.... as for new units, it would be cool, but its friggin hard to think of something thats both conceptually cool and could fit into the metagame in some conceivably useful way.

one unit i would like to see is some kind of Hydralisk-evolution (instead of the lurkerer), maybe a "hunter killer" super-hdyra type unit, with 1 longer range than hydra, more damge wih slower speed, but dealing only like half or 1/4 damage if the enemy was closer than half the range (3.5)

another random idea: a ground unit with distinctively different roles when burrowed / unborrowed. I cant think of anything cool unburrowed for now, but like slow or reduce armor of nearby enemies when burrowed.

... just trying to brainstorm a bit. its been a while..

peace.

Tychus really needs to get over his hate of me, its clouding his common sense.

Vkings are good as they are, even in TvZ. If you absolutely don't want to make Thors they make an OK substitute, as long as they're properly supported. That's all I've ever said. Giving Vikings a strong anti-light attack would break them.

I'm not like you in that I'm so quick to hate someone over minor things. In fact, we had some decent conversation when you didn't know it was me. Anyways, since you're back pedaling, I'm satisfied with our "debate". It's kind of funny, though, that you would rather brush off my remarks as being pure hate for you instead of taking them into consideration for personal growth ... oh welll ...

Good day.

@Todie: There's still a glaring contradiction, but, in what DSquid said before and after, but I don't really care about that anymore. You understand the two things I was responding to soI am satisfied with our 'debate' too.

DSquid exaggerated for effect, Tychus called him out, and then they began insulting each other.

Calm down you two, Mutalisks soft counter vikings. It would be a terrible decision to give vikings an attack that did more damage vs. them.

We cool?

Meh. Personally I don't think DSquid exaggerated for effect. I've seen him backpedal before and in fact he originally said "the viking owns" and "just get more vikings" if you have problems with mutas. If all he is saying is that there's nothing wrong with the viking, then why state the obvious anyway? DS is used to rampant theorycrafting back from the age of ignorance (2007-2008) when you could just say whatever and get away with it since we didn't have the game in our hands.

Hyde: I hate Thors. I want the Goliath back.

Me: Well if you don't want to build Thors, Vikings are still a pretty freakin good replacement.

Tychus: NO THEY'RE NOT YOU'RE FULL OF SHIT I HATE YOU WHAAAAAAA!!!!

Me: Calm the fuck down and get a few Raven PDD's while you're at it.

You said "just get more vikings" as a solution to mutas, and that "vikings own". Were you exaggerating? Because if you're going to massively exaggerate on all your strategy posts, it will help to clarify what you actually mean when someone calls you out on it. After Tychus pointed out that you will lose if you start massing vikings in response to them, why do you call his post trolling nonsense and start discussing the Viking DPS instead of simply saying that that's not what you meant?

It was what I meant; I was not exaggerating. Vikings do "fucking own," even in TvZ. They do as much damage to Mutas as Goliaths did and can actually chase the Mutas down. Sure, a group of Mutas may beat a group of Vikings, but why are you letting him get Mutas in the first place? I see all these players getting fast Medevacs to support their Marines and Marauders, and Banshees to harrass. So I'm really surprised no one is pumping out a few Vikings to kill Overlords early on when in fact Vikings kill Overlords faster than Phoenix do with over 2 times the range.

So, go build some Vikings and pick off some Overlords, then come back here and tell me Vikings blow in TvZ. I don't even play Terran and I know Vikings aren't being used right in TvZ right now.

It's nice to try something out before you say that it should be done :D It's very hard for a Terran to get enough Vikings before Mutalisks are out to kill enough Overlords to make the cost worth it. If you spend 600/300 just to kill four Overlords that's stupid and you're not even guaranteed to kill that many. Queens would kill the Vikings fairly quickly and that's IF there are no Mutalisk in play which would be rare in higher levels of play. In the early days of beta, I had quite a few Terrans try to harass my Overlords. I quickly took care of them and, at that time, I was an absolutely shitty Zerg player. You'll probably kill less than four but even if you do, you've spent more resources and time than they did to replenish the Overlords. THAT'S why you don't see people doing that anymore. It's so easy to counter and the Terran is already behind (likely) before a major battle even starts.

I'm confident that if you had tried what you are talking about, it wouldn't have work, and, even if it did, that's probably just the result of lower leagues. I wouldn't dream of doing that in a high Diamond game. Even if I'm wrong and it does work in Diamond league, it's far from "owning". By your logic, half of the outcomes of half the units is "owning".

Also, I'm glad you admitted you weren't exaggerating. Now we all just know that you're doing the wild speculation that Gradius said and not just irresponsibly using hyperbole.

I was going to point out all the cost, damage, and dps for Thors and Vikings, but there's really no need.

4 Vikings killing 4 Overlords is 400 minerals, 4 Larva, and 32 supply lost for Zerg. Its pretty much guaranteed damage. If he makes a ton of Queens to fight it off, that puts you ahead. If he makes Spore Crawlers to fight them off, that's even better for you. Every Overlord you kill puts him further and further behind.

4 Vikings coming out of a Starport you should have for Medevacs anyway, and will have to carry your slow Thors, costs less than 2 Thors out of a Factory with Armory. That extra gas can then go to upgrading Infernal Preigniter for the Hellions you're making with your empty Factory to kill his Zerglings, or for Marauders to kill his Roaches.

Did I say that Vikings are better than Thors at killing Mutalisks? No. But they are better at killing Overlords, and decent at killing Mutalisks. Which is why I said they fucking own, because if you're flying around picking off his Overlords while the army you'd have anyway supporting your Thors is doing what it always does anyway, he will likely never get to tech to Mutalisks in the first place, or produce them in large numbers with what little supply and free Larva you're giving him access to.

I mean, really, when you Thor rush, does the Zerg usually have Mutas out by then? Of course not. Now imagine skipping the Armory and Thor and Medevac and just getting 4 Vikings to supply cap the shit out of him. Can't you already feel Idra's rage?

Vikings do much less ground damage than thors or marines, and also less damage to mutas. As a counter to mutas, you should only build them if you already have a starport. In fact, in many situations, it's better to make more medivacs to heal your marines.

There is no reason to make spore crawlers, because unlike banshees, which harass drones, overlords don't actually need to be anywhere. He can easily pump out 2 more queens, which build very rapidly, then use them to spread creep afterwards, so they aren't wasted (or use them at his next expansion and the extra in-base hatch he will need for 2 base muta/ling). The point is, viking harass dropped off during beta because it was too easy to defend. Unlike with Phoenix, if you have a hard time dealing with his viking harass, you can actually build mutas to counter them (the correct counter would of course be hydras, but you can use your mutas to harass him as well).

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Originally Posted by MulletBen

Vikings do much less ground damage than thors or marines, and also less damage to mutas. As a counter to mutas, you should only build them if you already have a starport. In fact, in many situations, it's better to make more medivacs to heal your marines.

There is no reason to make spore crawlers, because unlike banshees, which harass drones, overlords don't actually need to be anywhere. He can easily pump out 2 more queens, which build very rapidly, then use them to spread creep afterwards, so they aren't wasted (or use them at his next expansion and the extra in-base hatch he will need for 2 base muta/ling). The point is, viking harass dropped off during beta because it was too easy to defend. Unlike with Phoenix, if you have a hard time dealing with his viking harass, you can actually build mutas to counter them (the correct counter would of course be hydras, but you can use your mutas to harass him as well).

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I KNOW ALL THIS! OMFG!

Hyde said he hated Thors, and I said Vikings offer a decent alternative and are fucking awesome units in general, and now you're all acting like I said Vikings are better than Thors against Mutas which I NEVER SAID. This is bullshit, you're all trolling me aren't you? Asshats.

Yes, they are worse vs. mutas than thors. But during no part of my post did I say that, because I know you know that, having said it in another post.

You said

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Vikings offer a decent alternative and are fucking awesome units in general

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Your reasoning being

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they fucking own, because if you're flying around picking off his Overlords while the army you'd have anyway supporting your Thors is doing what it always does anyway, he will likely never get to tech to Mutalisks in the first place, or produce them in large numbers with what little supply and free Larva you're giving him access to.

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To which I responded with

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He can easily pump out 2 more queens, which build very rapidly, then use them to spread creep afterwards, so they aren't wasted (or use them at his next expansion and the extra in-base hatch he will need for 2 base muta/ling). The point is, viking harass dropped off during beta because it was too easy to defend.

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There. You made a point, and after some enticing, offered an argument. I made a counterargument. If you can make an argument to counter that counterargument, then do so. If you read my post, I mention Thors exactly once, in the first sentance, along with the other anti-muta option, the marine. Perhaps you should read the other sentences as well. you know, the ones you

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I KNOW ALL THIS! OMFG!

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If he makes Spore Crawlers to fight them off,

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There is no reason to make spore crawlers, because unlike banshees, which harass drones, overlords don't actually need to be anywhere.

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If he makes a ton of Queens to fight it off, that puts you ahead.

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He can easily pump out 2 more queens, which build very rapidly, then use them to spread creep afterwards, so they aren't wasted (or use them at his next expansion and the extra in-base hatch he will need for 2 base muta/ling).

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he will likely never get to tech to Mutalisks in the first place, or produce them in large numbers with what little supply and free Larva you're giving him access to.

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Unlike with Phoenix, if you have a hard time dealing with his viking harass, you can actually build mutas to counter them (the correct counter would of course be hydras, but you can use your mutas to harass him as well).

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*facepalm*

I try to help Hyde and I get lambasted by this bullshit. Fuck it.

Try to listen Squid. I'm not saying make a bunch of Queens. I fended off 3 Vikings very, very, very easily with the standard two Queens, four would be no differnt.

Let's back up though. This situation is very rare. It is very rare for a Terran to have four Vikings before a Zerg player has at least four Mutalisks (given larva) but, even if that did happen, Queens (just two) are enough to fight off a few Vikings. This isn't theorycrafting, I have done this numerous times. Either way, even if the Viking attack is moderately effective, you're still behind because you haven't been keeping with production for your main army. You are putting yourself behind and that's all there is to it. This may work in lower leagues, but definitely not in high Platinum+.

I am, however, atleast glad that you actually thought this one through instead of acting emotionally.

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Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid

I try to help Hyde and I get lambasted by this bullshit. Fuck it.

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No, you talked out of your ass as you usually do. Only this time, you had me unblocked and responded. Which, therefore, opened the flood gates for people to share with you their knowledge and opinion. It isn't our fault that you can't handle a challenge to your wild speculation.

I recommend you stick your head in the sand once again (block me) so that you don't have to witness the indignity of a challenge to your opinion.

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If you can make an argument to counter that counterargument, then do so.

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Squid is happy to offer his countarguments but should you dare challenge him in the same way, he will either insult you, dodge, brush it off, backpedal, or change the subject. I have seen him do it all numerous times. Take my advice: there's nothing that can get through to him.

you know i'm kind of wondering about the spectre and blizzard's unusual attention towards it. bringing back a dead enemy from a dead game is kinda suspicious to me. nova i can understand as she was a hero character.

maybe the choice of choosing nova or tosh was to purposely show how spectres are different from ghosts if blizzard ever intended to add them. i'm sure in multiplayer the spectre would not have nuke considering it's psionic lash. maybe a tosh ability to replace that.

in sc1 the ghost was at the end of the tech tree, but now the ghost has moved a lot closer. because of this, the spectre could take the ghost's old place next to the battle cruiser.

Ghosts and Spectres are too similar to be included in melee. They're simply a unit for the lore. Adding them both would be like having a Hellion and Vulture.

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Originally Posted by TychusFindlay

Ghosts and Spectres are too different to be included in melee. They're simply a unit for the lore. Adding them both would be like having a Hellion and Vulture.

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wouldn't be blizzard's first time of adding a unit of lore as an expansion unit. would be the 4th time.

i don't get the hellion and vulture thing. you saying they too much a like to be different?

I never said they didn't add units of lore. Dark Templars are a great example.

I only said Ghosts and Spectres are too similar. Blizzard keeps each unit unique.