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I mentioned earlier in my post regarding the Twilight Champion with the Crusade passive ability, that would be nice for zealots to have early on.
Crusade/Pursuit- Attacks increase movement speed, this effect does not stack but will refresh.
Allowing in combat zealot to catch up to runby zerglings or marauders etc.
Which is why I'm wondering why so many people on our front page poll just opt for cramming new units into each race w/ each expansion.Quote:
Originally Posted by SonOfChaos
I'm just as confused as you are Grad. I voted for new upgrades and abilities, and have consistently said we need less MP units.
I voted other. I'm not saying there is NO room for any new units it just should not be a priority over making what we already have work well. I, and any honest thinking person, would rather have a well functioning and balanced game over a hodgepodge so so game with more "options".
Pretty much this. I'm not saying I wouldn't like to see new units, but it surely doesn't have to be on the same level as Broodwar or TFT. The functioning of the game comes first of course.Quote:
Originally Posted by SinsWage
But if you ask me it's probably going to be 1 unit per race + some creative abilities. And there's definitely room for some casters to gain extra abilities; especially considering there's hardly any researching required in SC2.
But then what would the expansions be? Just the single player?Quote:
Originally Posted by SinsWage
Well, at least in that case it won't segment online gameplay.
I made a proposal for how to integrate the Aberration. Read about it here: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/628235392#1
Some people like variety. Naturally balance needs to be considered, but I'd love to have more units over more abilities. It gives players more depth of choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gradius
idk what to say, TFT was the best thing to happen with RoC. And there was a lot of changes there.
The thing about TFT is that it introduced not just new units, but new unit roles; specifically the anti-caster unit type. Hence, it is should only with this in mind that new units be brought in. Alternatively, another way of adding new units is to identify each race's shortcomings and implement units specifcally designed to pick up the slack in those functions.
Just a side note : I think the mothership is imbalanced in anything past 1v1. Once you have 2v2/3v3/4v4 and if your team does not have a protoss player...Motherships can seriously turn the tide by vortex'ing half your army.
I've pulled off a lot of 1v2 victories in Public 2v2's massing carriers with a mothership. Pretty instrumental in my out numbered wins.
Back to topic : If they seriously need to add more units, then add overlapping things.
Terran:
I want options in my anti air, the Viking is nice - but I want something dedicated that can fight hand in hand with the mutalisk. Bring back the Valkyrie but buff her.
Zerg: Lurker? Why not? I know the baneling "does that job" right now pretty well - but sometimes doesn't a zerg player want some static supply food defence? Also out of all the races, they are the only ones without a long range "siege" unit that can fire again and again...
Protoss: Protoss Air is pretty much covered in my opinion. They need something in Tier2 to Tier 2.5 for a ground unit that can be warped in. Dark Archon 2.0 or the Protoss Purifier?
Like what others have said, WC3 TFT brought in units that filled in gaps in the game/roles. Right now, there's not much for gaps in SC2 with the current unit count.
I mean look at the Reaper....after T1 he is sort of useless... his roles are superceded by Ignition Hellions and Medivac Marauders ....
Only thing I want to see is a Detector unit for Terran that isn't a Raven. That will basically make me a happy camper.
^What's wrong with the Raven?
The protoss and zerg only have one unit detector, the observer and overseer respectively. Does that mean that they need other detectors?
But if we're including abilities, the Terran also has OC to scan and detect. (Although most people would rather save for MULEs). And the Zerg has Fungal Growth. If anyone "needs" another detector it should be Protoss. But IMO, all the races are pretty good detector-wise
Protoss have Hallucinations (i use the Phoenix). Should cost way less energy, however.
What I really hope and pray is that when the expansions come they will cut units that aren't working and design new units for each race. That way the total number of units remains about the same, but all of them are just better.
Personally I'm expecting the expansion in 2012. That is plenty of time to balance the game before adding units and balancing those.Quote:
Originally Posted by SonOfChaos
I like this idea. I'm guessing this is what Blizzard will do, along with new abilities.Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. peasant
I don't think any race needs another one. Zerg has overseers that can be morphed in under 20 seconds. Toss has a cloaked detector. Terran has the raven, which is pretty late compared to other 2, but makes up with scan. I think 1 detector unit is enough per race.Quote:
Originally Posted by SonOfChaos
This is what the alpha version is for. Now that it has been released, there will be a lot of complaining if a unit is thrown away. For the most part, the game is balanced. Marauder and voids do need a nerf, has lots can't counter marauders very well without charge. Voids in mass kills everything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Baneling
This is a lot like charge. If this was an ability that the lot started with; it would help in killing the marauder, and other ranged units in the early game. Ether this or something like it or nerf the marauder more than with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blasterion
Units that are most likely are lurker, scourge, and brrutalisk
hey you guys should try my scourge mod maps
i've added some of this stuff you are thinking about (calldown marines from orbital command, camp zerg units, buffs and upgrades)
and if you want i'll add some of your ideas from this thread
basically i want some people to play it right now and tell me what they think
metalopolis - scourge mod test (on us server)
lost temple - scourge mod test (on us server)
warning: its really unbalanced right now and just for experimental play/if you are bored
but i hope to make it like a wc3 type variant (with heroes)
The only thing I really think they need for the expansion is to make Ultras more easily counterable (nerf Zerg!? OH HEAVENS NO!) and then add in another T3 Zerg ground unit to make up for it.
Once a Zertg player hits lair, he really only has 2 options: Ultras or Brood Lords. Considering the relative cost vs. effectiveness, there really isn't a choice. Ultras are just so good against so many things that to shell out the resources to get Brood Lords just isn't worth it when they get killed so easily. Making Ultras less strong and giving Zerg another option would make them more dynamic in the late stages of the game.
And perhaps a Dark Archon would give more options to players who go down that side of the tech tree, but on the other hand a 250/250 Archon is soo much better than a 100/300 Archon.
...unless you just really like zealots.
I know! give Vikings a research for Valkyrian Missile Array, gives the vikings a new attack vs light units, (attack effect similar to Valkyries in BW) only used against light Air
The Battlecruiser had a similar ability in Blizzard's internal alpha (Missile Barrage), but it was removed, because it made the Battlecruiser too useful against most everything. The Thor, or Seeker Missile fills this role very well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blasterion
Here's what I expect may happen in future expansions:
- Zerg gets a balanced, early AA/scout unit in stark contrast to the Corrupter. (Scourge?)
- Zerg gets a tier 2 siege unit with bonus against armoured (probably not Lurker, would have range: 7).
- Protoss gets a new Gateway unit that reduces the player's dependency on Force Field (in effect opening up a lot of new early-game options). Unit would scale well into tier 2.5.
- New ability to make Mothership more viable in 1v1.
- New tier 2 detection method for Protoss to allow for more tech paths than straight to Observers (a third, 100 energy ability for High Templar?)
I have very few good ideas for Terran. Actually, the Diamondback probably wouldn't be too bad a choice, except I think they'd be pretty OP against Stalkers, unless this meshed well with other changes to effectively solve that caveat.
I'm new with this theorycrafting but here's my two cents:Quote:
Originally Posted by Omi
A new ability for the MS could be a factor; after all it's a caster unit, and I though of the old Planet Cracker. It could work in 2 ways:
-Nerf it so it does less initial damage, smaller AoE and/or less DPS (Could work if tested correctly)
or
-Change the Planet Cracker into a more specific role: give it a bonus vs certain armor type the Protoss may lack to counter.
I got one better!Quote:
Originally Posted by Blasterion
Give Marauders a research so that they can attack air units! And it gives a splash range of 2.5! And while were at it... make them double produce able, because heck, the Tech lab is so superfluous that Reactors need a buff. That would do just the thing!
Seriously people...
Why get rid of an op units only true weakness. Its fairly cheap, double produce able so you can get lots of them, massive range, huge damage, good movement speed and can attack both ground and air without any research. Yeah, lets get rid of its only weakness, in that it doesn't instant kill light air units...
Terran:
I'd like to see the drop-pod mechanic put back in for ghosts or as a tier 3.5 rally point upgrade mechanism for the barracks. I realize it would essentially be Warp Gates on steroids but in ultra late game Protoss/Zerg have options to "instantly" get units on the field.
Warp Gate and Creep/Nydus Wyrm.
I'd also like to see... (I have been ranting for this since Beta day 1) for a Ghost hold fire TOGGLE. Right now, it is STILL impossible to
a) Cloak your ghost
b) load him up into the medivac
c) drop him into the enemy base without him aggressively shooting
When this happens; enemy player hits spacebar and your "Covert nuking" mission is over
I'd like to see a dedicated ground to air unit...hell I just want the goliath back...I am sick of using the slow ass thor. He's badass and all but it really forces the terran player to be really immobile. One reason why I try to avoid em at all costs against Zerg.
I'd say a dedicated AtG unit would be fail because you could never win the game just building it, but then again we already have the AtA only Phoenix - a unit you can never win the game with. Quite frankly, the Viking just fucking owns. Cheap, can be produced in pairs, and a strong long ranged attack. If you're having trouble with Mutas, skip the Thor and just get more Vikings. It really is a flying Goliath.Quote:
Originally Posted by hyde
What? Vikings are pretty weak against Mutalisks if the Zerg player uses them right. Besides, if you get mostly vikings, you won't have a strong enough ground force to take out the ground army.
I like to see Spawn larva reversed. Considering all other races can instantly recouperate, and Zerg have to wait 40 seconds.
Spawn larva should be this: The second you pit a hatchery to spawn larva, it goes into over drive. Spitting out 4 larva quickly (but slower than the current solution), maybe 1 larva every 2 seconds second. And then it goes into a 32 second cool down.
Queens can agitate this functionality using a toggle skill.
Furthermore, this functionality is no longer mana cost. As long as you have a queen nearby, you can agitate a hatchery into doing this.
Also, I'd like to add back Roach's 2 armor since they're now 2 food so that they're better off suited against marines and zealots.
@Wankey
Roaches are fine as they are. With 2 Armor at the start they would be back to their "overpowered" status and you wouldn't see Zerglings openings at all.
Vikings actually do twice as much damage to Mutalisks than Goliaths did in SC1, 20 vs 10, and they have a longer range (10 vs 8 with Charon Booster).Quote:
Originally Posted by TychusFindlay
Their ground mode attack does the same damage, 12. The crippler is that they cost 50 more minerals and 25 more gas than the Goliath did.
And yes, I know I read and replied to TF's post after saying I wouldn't, but it was a great chance to once again prove he's just trolling nonsense.
You know, the AoE version of the Viking's attack would be interesting to test in MP.
Vikings already do a better job at AA than Goliaths did in SC1. The reason Goliaths were successful was because people could make so many and it was long range. The same case applies here with vikings, if you make enough you can technically use them to hold off muta packs. The only difference is goliaths were cheaper to make which warrants making lots of them, while Vikings are a bit more expensive and less cost effective in the specific role of being anti-muta. This doesn't mean Vikings are not effective at what they do, it just means marines are cheaper.
This is a needless call for change. It's like asking for Zerg to get another melee unit because Lings are too weak and Ultras are too expensive. It's not enough of a reason to require change.
Yeah I guess that's pointless. The roach is still an anomaly in the game design...Quote:
Originally Posted by RamiZ
To be honest, I'm not hoping for a lot of good design ideas to come out of Blizzard. The overall game design of philosophy of SC2 has really no general philosophy and feels incredibly hacked together. The solutions offered are really narrow minded and doesn't expand more than it was designed to be.
Dustin Browder is no James Phinney when it comes to game design, and the rest of Blizzard's original talent is happily sitting in their World of Warcraft throne or working on the next gen MMO where the real money's at.
It seems to me, Blizzard game design is simply who can argue their point better or use some weird argument point to make their point stand out, rather than proving the point doesn't work. Look at the viking for instance, where is the risk in that unit? It's got ridiculous range, and does decent damage and transforms to do decent damage again on the ground. Where is any risk in that?
Look at the Phoenix, compared to the corsair, the phoenix obliterates it in power but lacks in heavily in design and playability. Phoenix does 20 damage to light, the fastest unit in the game, and fires on the move. Where's the risk? It's only anti-air, BUT WAIT! Lets give it a floaty skill to negate that risk. There is no real gameplay when it comes to phoenix. With the corsair, if they're harassing your overlords or mutas, you can counter with the smallest smatter of ground troops. Not with the phoenix, they'll pick them up and do away with them, and continue to harass. That in a sense makes no sense nor does it create fun and interesting gameplay.
I can go on and on about SC2 game design and the lack of risk vs reward but it's beating a dead horse. I highly doubt HotS will fix any of these issues as these poor game design decisions have been ingrained into the current status quo and players have adjusted in using these units. It probably won't be LotV before they realize the overall grand scheme of things and really do a big work over the overall balance and game design.
Then again, the community these days no longer really care about good game design as DotA of all things have shone. That's probably one of the worst designed games out there and usually why there is so much rage associated with it.
Nobody in the last 2000 years has blamed chess for their loss have they?
SC2 is still a new game, and it's not as finely tuned as SC1 was but it's still pretty damned close on the overall. There are few anomolies, but things like the phoenix aren't the big issue. If you break it down, the phoenix has the same potential of harassing and countering as any other unit, and its flaws are the fact that it is limited to being anti-air only. Even a Banshee or Mutalisk has more potential to completely turn the tide of a game than the phoenix does.
Overall, SC2's fundamentals are still about solid RTS gameplay. Simply analyzing a unit down to its intended place and role isn't enough to solve balance issues. It takes a lot of time and dedication to finely tune the balance, and I think it's already in a pretty solid direction.
Also, DOTA is team-oriented competitive game, and much of the rage is due to it being a team-oriented competitive game. Play any game out there like CS, L4D, Halo, whatever. There's just as much rage and it's rarely (legitimately) because of game design.
they have 9 not 10, and they cost like 1.5 time the liath...if you ask me i prefer the liath, really...Quote:
Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid
goliath also have 1 base armor and they benefit from the same upgrades of the tank and hellion.
also u have not take in consideration the fact that the liath shoot much faster than viking does, therefore it is not correct to say "20vs10", it's more like:
viking 10DPS(20 in two sec)
liath was about the same as a turret, so really fast, 10DPS
they are the same...
in conclusion: viking suck and it's only good at flying lol
So, they still have longer range and I already pointed out the cost increase.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amph
Granted, I always wanted the Viking to come from the Factory and be given its Air Mode as an Upgrade. However, you know what else benefits from Viking upgrades? Banshees. Medevacs. Ravens. Freakin Battle Cruisers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amph
Oh, so I was, again, still right. What a shock.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amph
In conclusion, if you're going to argue with me, it helps to not agree with me on half my points, and use proper punctuation.Quote:
in conclusion: viking suck and it's only good at flying lol
Vikings are only good against mutalisks with support from other units like turrets & marines, and it's more because of their range than their DPS. They are not a counter to mutalisks by themselves. Vikings clump, fire too slow, and don't transition to being main army units like mutalisks do.
And I hope you guys realize that's not how you calculate the correct DPS for the Viking and the Brood War goliath.
i'm not debating with you, i just made your post more precise...Quote:
Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid
Is it possible to like mute a user, possibly wankey.
I bet he even thinks Donkey Kong Country Returns got a bad game design.
I have Tychus Findley blocked. Use the Ignore List in your personal settings, works like friend list.Quote:
Originally Posted by Twilice
Even though he tries to make it seem as though SCII is designed poorly, Wankey actually makes a good point as to why the Viking should in no way be made effective towards mutalisks.
The answer to that inquiry surrounds the post on both sides.Quote:
Look at the viking for instance, where is the risk in that unit? It's got ridiculous range, and does decent damage and transforms to do decent damage again on the ground. Where is any risk in that?
The Viking is good enough against Mutas as is. It does damn well if you're the kind of prude who absolutely refuses to build Thors, and still makes Marines. That's all there is to it.