Patch 1.1

Its a ghost. Rumors come of it from here or there, but no one has laid eyes on it once. It is a legend of the coming of balanced siege tanks and the end of proxies. Sadly we may never see it come for it may come after our time.

Yeah... Speaking of it, we're now reaching half of September... When's it gonna be launched?

The Zealot rushes would be better fixed by putting more attention in the macro mechanics, and how they modified the game. As it's now, macro is extremely powerful, specially in the first minutes of the game.

We all know that after slowing the Zealot build times, 6-pool will be a massacre, and going against Terran bio will be still harder than it's now.

They said it'd be out by the end of this month, right? We still have a few weeks.

I wonder if Blizzard's going to implement this patch during the current GSL :p. It might make some players mad if they feel that they could have won under the 'new' balance of 1.1, but eh - who knows!

And I don't think that this patch means the end of proxies, not by a longshot :p. Proxies will exist for as long as StarCraft exists :p.

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We all know that after slowing the Zealot build times, 6-pool will be a massacre, and going against Terran bio will be still harder than it's now.

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People are talking much about it, but they are changing build time from 33 to 38. With Chrono Booster, that is like 2 sec later Zealot on fastest game speed. So I don't think it will be much of a problem.
But on the other hand, changing cooldown on Warp Gates is great thing, I was talking about them since day 1, it is just to good to have all units on 23 sec cooldown. When Protoss start overmassing Zerg, you know something is wrong... :P

I really wish that patch would come out.

Reaper harass is sooooo imbalanced against Zerg :( Also, Mauraders need a nerf bad. I'm not saying this as someone who loses to them, I'm saying this as someone who used them and acknowledges that I had no right to win when I did.

I'm only interested in the meta-achievements fix... :3 I hope this patch comes with it

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Originally Posted by HydraHydra

I'm only interested in the meta-achievements fix... :3 I hope this patch comes with it

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achievement whore as usual hydra :D

I'd think it'd come out after the GSL.

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Originally Posted by Zabimaru

I'd think it'd come out after the GSL.

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My thoughts exactly. Some of the changes will directly effect some of the players strategies, eg no more hero BCs :P

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Originally Posted by RamiZ

People are talking much about it, but they are changing build time from 33 to 38. With Chrono Booster, that is like 2 sec later Zealot on fastest game speed. So I don't think it will be much of a problem.
But on the other hand, changing cooldown on Warp Gates is great thing, I was talking about them since day 1, it is just to good to have all units on 23 sec cooldown. When Protoss start overmassing Zerg, you know something is wrong... :P

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Spawn Larvae should allow better macro than Chrono Boost. When a Zerg player uses it right, they can make tons of units, and you better get some AoE ASAP, or you're screwed.

But i think it's ridiculous that all units get the same build times from Warpgates. They had different build times for a reason.

In general, i think they were too overconfident with all the mechanics that affect macro, and this is going to cause troubles for quite some time. They should had balanced the game without them, and then add them, and see how they modified things. But no, they just thrown them in, and now they're an absolutely critical aspect of the game, instead of something just to show your skill. As the Protoss have Chrono Boost, they have some critical upgrades that need to be chronoboosted all the time, or you can die from old age before they finish.

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But no, they just thrown them in, and now they're an absolutely critical aspect of the game, instead of something just to show your skill.

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They should be critical, as critical as making workers. Even low-skilled players of SC1 couldn't just ignore macro. Why should they be able to in SC2?

I'm going to bump this whole ordeal to the next level.

There shouldn't be conflicts on any strategy/imbalance/game issues, at all. The conflicts will never produce a favorable outcome. This patch is most likely taking that thought-process into effect. They are changing the game, not from the complaints of the majority, but the basic structures and clear mistakes made on the developer's part.

We, as players and humans, have the unique ability to adapt, those that become great successes in this world, both starcraft and in the traditional world, have a much larger perspective on how the mechanics of these things work, and adapt to them much quicker.

Whether these changes coming are from someone posting about them or not, which seems unlikely due to the fact the majority of the player-base is complaining on other matters, I believe that arguments won't solve anything, we'll have to adapt or give up the reasons why we play this game at all.

To be satisfied is to never succeed, to succeed is to never be satisfied. Adaptation is what brings about change.

My thoughts :) are:

1) general notes: a) The patch will come after the tournament
b) @Norfindel: I agree some Protoss upgrades/researches are agonizingly slow

2) Terran fixes:
a) The marauder nerf should be the loss of the concussive shells and -10 hp plus a small buff (+1) to the marauder's attack speed
b) Siege tank changes: i. hp +10, ii. both damages -5, iii. New Upgrade: Carnage class shells: 200/200 cost, 45 sec time, allows siege mode splash to damage air, increases splash radius +1, researched from Tech Lab, but requires Fusion Core and Armory
c) Thors only require Armory. Can be double produced w/ reactor. time increased by 25.
d) Viking: -1 range for +1 to 1.5 movement speed, -0.1 accleration

3) 3 Zerg changes:
a) Roach: +1 start range, -20 hp
b) Infestor mods: i. Infested Terran energy increased so that each infestor can launch only 2 at a time, ii. Infestor pop usage increased to 4 or even 6 control.
c) Spawn larvae overhaul: Spell will require a minimum of 2 hatches built to cast as it will now spawn larvae on 2 hatches at once.
d) ling: i. build time increased by +5, ii. ling movement speed to require Lair

4) Protoss changes:
a) Chrono boost duration doubled, cost to 30-35 energy, speed increase up by 25%
b) Gateways/Warpgates can no longer be boosted after construction completes.
c) Warpgate i. upgrade cost upped to 100/100, ii. cooldown increased to 45, iii. unit warp-in time increased by 3 seconds
d) Zealot: i. charge research time reduced from 140 to 115
ii. build time increased by 5 seconds
e) Mothership no longer requires direct resources to build because it transforms literally from a nexus. Player will lose a nexus to create a mother ship. Vortex range increased to envelop everything on screen (about 10)
f) Phoenix damage +1, hp +50
g) Carrier gains second capacity upgrade so it can carry 12 Interceptors
h) Immortal gets a +1 range buff

5) Battlecruiser note: I think this is balanced pretty nicely betweeen corruptors, void rays, and bcs.

Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by Briggs

I'm going to bump this whole ordeal to the next level.

There shouldn't be conflicts on any strategy/imbalance/game issues, at all. The conflicts will never produce a favorable outcome. This patch is most likely taking that thought-process into effect. They are changing the game, not from the complaints of the majority, but the basic structures and clear mistakes made on the developer's part.

We, as players and humans, have the unique ability to adapt, those that become great successes in this world, both starcraft and in the traditional world, have a much larger perspective on how the mechanics of these things work, and adapt to them much quicker.

Whether these changes coming are from someone posting about them or not, which seems unlikely due to the fact the majority of the player-base is complaining on other matters, I believe that arguments won't solve anything, we'll have to adapt or give up the reasons why we play this game at all.

To be satisfied is to never succeed, to succeed is to never be satisfied. Adaptation is what brings about change.

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So true. So true.

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Originally Posted by flak4321

My thoughts :) are:

1) general notes: a) The patch will come after the tournament
b) @Norfindel: I agree some Protoss upgrades/researches are agonizingly slow

2) Terran fixes:
a) The marauder nerf should be the loss of the concussive shells and -10 hp plus a small buff (+1) to the marauder's attack speed
b) Siege tank changes: i. hp +10, ii. both damages -5, iii. New Upgrade: Carnage class shells: 200/200 cost, 45 sec time, allows siege mode splash to damage air, increases splash radius +1, researched from Tech Lab, but requires Fusion Core and Armory
c) Thors only require Armory. Can be double produced w/ reactor. time increased by 25.
d) Viking: -1 range for +1 to 1.5 movement speed, -0.1 accleration

3) 3 Zerg changes:
a) Roach: +1 start range, -20 hp
b) Infestor mods: i. Infested Terran energy increased so that each infestor can launch only 2 at a time, ii. Infestor pop usage increased to 4 or even 6 control.
c) Spawn larvae overhaul: Spell will require a minimum of 2 hatches built to cast as it will now spawn larvae on 2 hatches at once.
d) ling: i. build time increased by +5, ii. ling movement speed to require Lair

4) Protoss changes:
a) Chrono boost duration doubled, cost to 30-35 energy, speed increase up by 25%
b) Gateways/Warpgates can no longer be boosted after construction completes.
c) Warpgate i. upgrade cost upped to 100/100, ii. cooldown increased to 45, iii. unit warp-in time increased by 3 seconds
d) Zealot: i. charge research time reduced from 140 to 115
ii. build time increased by 5 seconds
e) Mothership no longer requires direct resources to build because it transforms literally from a nexus. Player will lose a nexus to create a mother ship. Vortex range increased to envelop everything on screen (about 10)
f) Phoenix damage +1, hp +50
g) Carrier gains second capacity upgrade so it can carry 12 Interceptors
h) Immortal gets a +1 range buff

5) Battlecruiser note: I think this is balanced pretty nicely betweeen corruptors, void rays, and bcs.

Thoughts?

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My only thought is thank Adun you aren't responsible for the balance. Some of your changes are needlessly minor, and others are absolutely retarded.

@demosquid

I usually think you are a bit harsh, but I agree. Those changes would devastate the game I love so much.

Siege tank do splash damage to air units? what the hell? Double pump thors? I play terran, and even I think that those are absurd.

Marauders need a nerf but really people stay calm. Nerf them too hard or remove them and bio is not viable past 5 minutes or so. Teir 1.5 bling, tier 2.5 tank, and tier three colossi or templar, annhilate marines, and ghosts cant fix that. That would limit terrans to some kind of mech except for timing pushes and lower gameplay depth.

It would especially kill the depth in tvt, unless you want broodwar style 40 minutes siegetank viking battles.

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Originally Posted by RamiZ

People are talking much about it, but they are changing build time from 33 to 38. With Chrono Booster, that is like 2 sec later Zealot on fastest game speed. So I don't think it will be much of a problem.
But on the other hand, changing cooldown on Warp Gates is great thing, I was talking about them since day 1, it is just to good to have all units on 23 sec cooldown. When Protoss start overmassing Zerg, you know something is wrong... :P

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That's whats bad about it. What if i don't use chrono boost on gates?
Maybe I'm totally macro player and only use it on workers, why should I now must use it with the zealot reduced build time?

Any other way to fix it is fine, for example gateway build time increase, warp gate research increased, but not the time of the zealots.

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Originally Posted by almostfamous

@demosquid

I usually think you are a bit harsh, but I agree. Those changes would devastate the game I love so much.

Siege tank do splash damage to air units? what the hell? Double pump thors? I play terran, and even I think that those are absurd.

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I thought they bordered those limits as I wrote them, but I felt I needed something for terran after I had written the Zerg and Toss parts. Haven't you ever seen a war movie or action movie where shrapnel from an exploding tank or truck damaged a low flying plane? That one is not so outlandish, but is perhaos just as unnecessary. I ultimately defer to your point. However:

@Demo also: Needlessly minor? I agree, in many instances. I wrote this as a litmus test, not as an actual proposal, but I disguised that intent to gauge reactions. ;) I will, however, agree that some the test proposal was out there, as you two said, so perhaps I overreached my target.

I turn my post now to all: While we can all see there is some imbalance in the game just yet, I ask you each to reconsider my first post as an illustration of just how minor the imbalances are. Subtracting the greatest absurdities, the siege tank, thor, mothership and carrier changes first, would you not still have to admit that to some extent, the imbalances may be too minor to risk other imbalance for the sake of balancing what currently is imbalanced?

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Originally Posted by Gali

Marauders need a nerf but really people stay calm. Nerf them too hard or remove them and bio is not viable past 5 minutes or so. Teir 1.5 bling, tier 2.5 tank, and tier three colossi or templar, annhilate marines, and ghosts cant fix that. That would limit terrans to some kind of mech except for timing pushes and lower gameplay depth.

It would especially kill the depth in tvt, unless you want broodwar style 40 minutes siegetank viking battles.

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

They should be critical, as critical as making workers. Even low-skilled players of SC1 couldn't just ignore macro. Why should they be able to in SC2?

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Obviously, they cannot ignore macro, but the "macro mechanics" should be only one aspect of it. If a player casts Chrono Boost twice as the other, what kind of micro would offset that?

Anyways, what i mean, is that the macro mechanics are now too central, and it isn't clear if it boost a race, or just offsets its nerfs. Take for example the Thermal Lance upgrade. The Colossus is useless without it, but it takes forever to research. Would take so long if Chrono Boost wasn't into the game, or they did make it slow on purpose so that you can click a few buttons more.

Seriously. Just reduce Marauder damage to 6+10 instead of 10+10, or remove their ability to Stim.

I really think removing marauder stim is needed, marauders have concussive shell, there is no need for them to have stim, especially considering they do 20 dmg vs armored, un-sieged tanks do 25...

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Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid

Seriously. Just reduce Marauder damage to 6+10 instead of 10+10, or remove their ability to Stim.

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I agree on the stim part. They should do great damage to armored units, but for example, they win Roaches just by auto-attack. And with stim and slow at the same time, together with Roach's range of 3, you can kite them and they can't even touch you, like only winning by auto-attacking wasn't enough... :rolleyes:
Same goes for Zealots and Lings, units that suppose to counter them!

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That's whats bad about it. What if i don't use chrono boost on gates?
Maybe I'm totally macro player and only use it on workers, why should I now must use it with the zealot reduced build time?

Any other way to fix it is fine, for example gateway build time increase, warp gate research increased, but not the time of the zealots.

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It is not like that you must, you don't need to do anything. You must do it only if we are talking about 6 pool, and if my knowledge serves me well, P players do it today also vs. 6 pool, so what is different?
Gateway build time increase isn't fine because that only works for first gateway and then you can pump Zealots, and the real problem is early game rushes and pushes with mass Zealots. It is too difficult to stop with Zerg player.

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Originally Posted by flak4321

My thoughts :) are:

1) general notes: a) The patch will come after the tournament
b) @Norfindel: I agree some Protoss upgrades/researches are agonizingly slow

2) Terran fixes:
a) The marauder nerf should be the loss of the concussive shells and -10 hp plus a small buff (+1) to the marauder's attack speed
b) Siege tank changes: i. hp +10, ii. both damages -5, iii. New Upgrade: Carnage class shells: 200/200 cost, 45 sec time, allows siege mode splash to damage air, increases splash radius +1, researched from Tech Lab, but requires Fusion Core and Armory
c) Thors only require Armory. Can be double produced w/ reactor. time increased by 25.
d) Viking: -1 range for +1 to 1.5 movement speed, -0.1 accleration

3) 3 Zerg changes:
a) Roach: +1 start range, -20 hp
b) Infestor mods: i. Infested Terran energy increased so that each infestor can launch only 2 at a time, ii. Infestor pop usage increased to 4 or even 6 control.
c) Spawn larvae overhaul: Spell will require a minimum of 2 hatches built to cast as it will now spawn larvae on 2 hatches at once.
d) ling: i. build time increased by +5, ii. ling movement speed to require Lair

4) Protoss changes:
a) Chrono boost duration doubled, cost to 30-35 energy, speed increase up by 25%
b) Gateways/Warpgates can no longer be boosted after construction completes.
c) Warpgate i. upgrade cost upped to 100/100, ii. cooldown increased to 45, iii. unit warp-in time increased by 3 seconds
d) Zealot: i. charge research time reduced from 140 to 115
ii. build time increased by 5 seconds
e) Mothership no longer requires direct resources to build because it transforms literally from a nexus. Player will lose a nexus to create a mother ship. Vortex range increased to envelop everything on screen (about 10)
f) Phoenix damage +1, hp +50
g) Carrier gains second capacity upgrade so it can carry 12 Interceptors
h) Immortal gets a +1 range buff

5) Battlecruiser note: I think this is balanced pretty nicely betweeen corruptors, void rays, and bcs.

Thoughts?

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http://i641.photobucket.com/albums/u...e-facepalm.jpg

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Originally Posted by flak4321

e) Mothership no longer requires direct resources to build because it transforms literally from a nexus. Player will lose a nexus to create a mother ship. Vortex range increased to envelop everything on screen (about 10)

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Oh thank God.

I thought you were serious for a second there.

Alright guys, perhaps my initial entry into this conversation was in bad form. Lol. The double facepalm was warranted. This is what happens when one types before one really thinks.

The question is, do we really need to change anything? The marauder? I agree that either stim or shells should go or be reduced in effectiveness. This would help Toss players, but would weaken Terran bio vs Zerg ground. We'd have to nerf the roach again, which would require a nerf to the Immortal, which would require another nerf to the marauder and so on. You can't really change one at this point without changing the other two.

The colossus is fine as is. Sure, a buff to the lance upgrade time would be helpful, but if you got enough army variety, this is a very small factor. Use VRs and chargelots w/ your colossi at least. A few HTs and/or Dts don't hurt.

When the hell is the patch coming out?

*Looks at magic ball*

"When it won't interfere with pro tournaments."

Why don't they set a date for the patch release so that tournaments know when to reschedule

....

You must be joking

Wait you want blizz to do what!??!?!?! Schedule dates ?!?!?!?!? Wtf are you thinking? Blizz will never schedule a date for anything! And if they do its a tentative date they then break by delaying. 1 month<soon<infinity. The patch will come out soon.

What if stim gave marauders the speed boost, but no attack-rate boost? And maybe take less health from them.. That way, you can still use stim as a micro technique (ie running away) but it wont be used to do insane damage like it does right now..

Genius idea?

If you can't defend from a zealot rush you are just not good at the game. Why are they punishing protoss so much. Marauders are really not OP that is why storm was invented :-)

What is in this patch other than 4 tweaks in the editor?

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Originally Posted by Wankey

What is in this patch other than 4 tweaks in the editor?

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Probably some bug fixes and possibly some updates to bnet (maybe?! HOPEFULLY?!)

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Originally Posted by dejai

If you can't defend from a zealot rush you are just not good at the game. Why are they punishing protoss so much. Marauders are really not OP that is why storm was invented :-)

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Marauders arent bad once you get storm, its just sad and difficult that it requires such a late unit to handle them, especially since HT dont start with enough energy to storm so you need several upgrades, lots of gas, and extra time to let them get the energy.

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Marauders arent bad once you get storm, its just sad and difficult that it requires such a late unit to handle them, especially since HT dont start with enough energy to storm so you need several upgrades, lots of gas, and extra time to let them get the energy.

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But once you do get strom it's not funny how quickly they die. O_0

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Originally Posted by Zabimaru

But once you do get strom it's not funny how quickly they die. O_0

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They still dont die very quickly. Its just that storm hits an area so in your mind it seems fast. Its kind of like, "I have an army, I have an army, I have an army, oh shit where'd my army go" because they are all getting hit at the same time. In reality, a marauder has to stand in a storm (2 actually) for 7 full seconds to die to that storm.

nerf storms and collosai, my poor bio is gettin' raped, QQ.

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Originally Posted by Skyze

What if stim gave marauders the speed boost, but no attack-rate boost? And maybe take less health from them.. That way, you can still use stim as a micro technique (ie running away) but it wont be used to do insane damage like it does right now..

Genius idea?

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this is good in theory, but it wont happen; unless teh effect were the same on marines, it would be inconsistent; non intuitive. not something blizzard would do.