Banelings, Hellions, and Ultralisks

I've actually seen this discussion elsewhere, but i would like to ask the scl members, and exspecially the members that were alredy been able to play SC2 about their opinion about these three units (Banelings, Hellions, and Ultralisks). After reading several different sites synopsis of their experience with these units it seems that everyone had different opionions of their usefulness.


Team liquids commentary seemed to think that banelings were one of the better zerg units while sc2gg seemed to think they weren't as useful and even sayed they are uselles. Gearvosh(SC2A) commented at some point that he used hellions more than any other factory unit while team liquid said that they were too week. Gear and sc2gg said that the ultralisk were incredibly powerful and almost unstopable( he supposable killed 8 archons with 3 ultralisks), while team liquid said that his epic ultra/zerg push against the toss was easily put down.



What do you think some of the reasoning behind these conflicting reviews are?

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What do you think some of the reasoning behind these conflicting reviews are?

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That none of them played enough of the game to be able to make any of those statements with any confidence.

How long has SC1 been around before Vultures were "discovered"? Hell, Valkyries have been around for almost 10 years, and only recently have strategies emerged that use them.

What Nicol said.
Also, they were probably countered by the right things when they felt the units were weak, while the enemy didn't counter them when they found them to be powerful.

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

That none of them played enough of the game to be able to make any of those statements with any confidence.

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This.

If you watched some SC1 games first the time and saw some vultures killing zealots, or dark swarm owning some Terrans, or psi storm, you could easily think that those things are overpowered. Such is the way of the hard counter game.

The things that I noticed (through 2 Blizzcons and probably a combined 30-40 hours of playing)...

Banelings: These things are powerful, but have limited usefulness, although this is lessened somewhat by their speed upgrade, but really at that point it is rendered moot by the high HP of everything in Tier 3. Your best bet is to burrow them and use them like mines, because their cost and build time make them ALMOST too expensive to be expendable unless you get a lot of kills. Best used against the Protoss, the Terran generally devour them.

Hellions: When I used them I met with moderate success. The real strength of the unit is its speed and macro options. This can make it devastating, because of its agility. Used right, it is neigh unstoppable against ground forces, especially if its against Zerg and Protoss.

Ultralisks: Death incarnate. Their area of effect attack, combined with their new pathing, means that they can just press onwards. They still are vulnerable to air attacks, and ultimately can still fall prey to their immense size. On an open field, with air support, there is little that can effectively stop them short of massive Siege Tank walls or Psi Storm barrages. In tight spaces they are more useful than their SC1 counterparts, but still you pay an immensely high price (could have been balanced since then).

-Dread_Reaper

I think it's hard to come up with a conclusion without all the relevent data. I would like to know the scenarios that each seemed to excel and degrade. In short, I'd like to start exploring the angles of counters and identifying hard and soft counters in terms of experience instead of theory.

Until we know the full knowledge of each encounter that lead to these believes, it will be hard to understand how it all fits together.

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How long has SC1 been around before Vultures were "discovered"? Hell, Valkyries have been around for almost 10 years, and only recently have strategies emerged that use them.

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Wasn't that partly due to the bug where Valks didn't fire their missiles?

But anyway, I agree. It's also GOOD in my opinion to have conflicting opinions, there isn't a unified consensus that something is OP or anything, although we'll see in beta what's clearly OP and what's harder to spot.

Yeah it'll take some time before units really fit into there place I think, the first month of the beta will be annoying for blizzard im sure, everyone will stick to there old guns and they wont get any really good feedback until everyone starts to be more flexible...


I'm fine with banelings and ultras, however I feel like hellions should have a skill to use or something...hehe perhaps putting a bunch of fuel on the ground to ignite or something to make them more fun!

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Wasn't that partly due to the bug where Valks didn't fire their missiles?

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They were/are a bit buggy, and plus their slow. They’d proberly be used a lot more often in T vs Z if they could survive two scourge hits. But it’s also great to watch them come into play. ;P

Well, I've played SC2 three times for a total of about 8 hours I guess (got a LOT of free time with it at BlizzCon 3 when everyone went to the concert), so I suppose I can weigh in.

DISCLAIMER: None of these units and what people think about them matter, and they won't until beta. I'm just passing the time, I guess.

Banelings: Everytime I used them, I won. Combined with burrow they were disgusting. They destroy economies and light armies.

Hellions: Had a hard time using it.. Couldn't line their flames up properly before they would die. They were incredibly fragile in my experience.

Ultraslisks: Sure do look cool! They're about the same, I would say. I just think there's some hard counters now, so they may need some help to be the scary threat cows they should be.

Based on my experience, banelings are absolutely awesome but I think that many new or average players will make the mistake of making too many of them (I know I did, although it never cost me the game fortunately). It's really easy to fall into that trap since they are extremely useful, yet often times if you have too many, half of them will go to waste. It'll juste take some time for people to get used to an AoE suicidal unit since you always need to have just the right amount of them, or you'll be wasting ressources (unlike regular units where it's the more the merrier in a battle...).

Hellions... I can imagine this unit receiving a very serious nerf (or significant modifications) after many progamers get their hands on them. Seriously, this unit's power scales exponentially with the skill of it's user. These units give the word "flanking" a whole new meaning. I thought they were great.

Ultralisks seemed to be pretty balanced to me... They cost a ridiculus amount of gas but are really powerful. I think it works like it's BW counterpart. Some people thought it was imba while others thought it was weak? Well... look at a standard lategame ZvP in BW (where P goes for a ground army). Often times the is pretty much decided when ultralisks pop out. Either the protoss can't hold his front and just crumbles, or he can keep up economically and the zerg has to rely on sneaky drops and stuff to regain map control (ultras just can't cut it if the Z doesn't have enough production/economical capacity).

My two cents :)

How do you end up wasting banelings? They don't do splash to themselves right?

If you have extra, just plant them in front of production buildings or burrow them.

Can't comment on their effectiveness, but I can offer opinions on how fun they sound:

Banelings: Looking forward to using these most out of all the new Zerg units. I've always been a fan of sapper units. And using them as burrowed mines sounds hella exciting.

Hellion: They sound fun to use as well. I like their speed, and I'm sure I'll take enjoyment in trying to maximize their damage as best as possible by lining up their shots like the Lurkers.

Ultralisks: They don't seem too terribly exciting and don't stand out much from the original in SC1. Although that head-butt feature should make them more effective at destroying buildings. We'll see how much they're used in ambushes with the newly added burrowing.

Don't forget that ultralisks can burrow. A huge new idea by itself.

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

That none of them played enough of the game to be able to make any of those statements with any confidence.

How long has SC1 been around before Vultures were "discovered"? Hell, Valkyries have been around for almost 10 years, and only recently have strategies emerged that use them.

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QFT

As much as I've played the game, I can't make any comment about such units with any confidence. Granted, I'm not a pro player and can't pick up strategies as quickly as others or utilize a strategy with the highest efficiency, but I can say with a certainty that these units will find a place, whether more in casual games or competitive. A lot of people rarely use vultures, but those who can unlock their full potential can wreak devastation on an unwary opponent. I think Banelings and Hellions are like that. They can be a waste if not used properly, but deadly when used correctly. As for ultralisks, they are costly, but now they're definitely worth the high price, and I wouldn't be surprised to see them often in competitive play in the future.