Yeah, but are you going to buy him a plane ticket?
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Yeah, but are you going to buy him a plane ticket?
Amazing! I had heared that replay files are the same than map files, but never imagined it was possible to load them in that way. They should promote the feature more.Quote:
Originally Posted by FrozenArbiter
In fact, in SC2, if they implement an in-game forum viewer, they should make it possible to attach the replay, and see it directly there. It would be very good to discuss the game, without resorting to uploading a huge video to youtube.
They probably can't do that I'm afraid (it would be awesome), because the reason replay files are so small, is that it uses the game engine to play (basically just saving all the action inputs the user made)
So you'd have to find a way to intergrate SC2 into the forum :P
I think they definitely should promote the future more, yes.
1) How can you tell if it's an important feature if you have never used it :)? If you had used it, I think you would miss it a lot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wankey
2) How can Blizzards numbers on this subject be reliable if so many people were like you, and didn't know it existed?
3) Almost no games have online replays either - as far as I know - so it's pretty much just as marketable (I don't think either feature is a gigantic selling point tho).
4) How is it elitist?
5) As MaybeNextTime said, I'm assuming you will be paying to have people shipped from Korea / The US / Australia / ETC to Sweden?
I didn't know about this feature either, though it's always a shame to have a feature removed after 12 years advancement. (most of my SC friends are players not watchers, we suck :p)
To be honest, in the time it takes to get this feature coded in, there won't be any really great replays to watch, couple of months in when people are getting settled, then I think it will start to come back to player's memories, and I would wager it would be complete by then.
I was talking about the in-game forum viewer. I think i readed somewhere that they wanted to implement that (probably not by launch).Quote:
Originally Posted by FrozenArbiter
If they could do an in-game forum viewer, they could allow links to replays, that open it at some specific time (or near). Viewing the replay in a small window, like the youtube window in forums would be very good (always talking about an in-game viewer, of course), but probably that would require thinking about the feature from the very beginning.
I never knew this could be done on the original SC, but I can see its usefulness.
Nice to see you FA -- welcome to the SC:L forums. :)
Oh that would be pretty nice =]Quote:
Originally Posted by Norfindel
And ty n00bonic!
I didn't read the rest of what you said but Ima QFT this cuz I feel the same wayQuote:
Originally Posted by FrozenArbiter
Look at it from a utility point of view. How many people on this thread have never even heard of online replays until now? By contrast, how many people on this thread have never wanted to rewind a replay? Have never looked at a replay and gone, "Hey, wait, I want to see that again!"Quote:
So let me get this straight - they put in a minor (but incredibly hard) feature like replay rewinding, but decided to skimp on something as ESSENTIAL as this? Really?
The first number is much larger than the last (the last being 0, of course). One of these clearly has greater utility than the other.
But let's do think once again in terms of complexity.
Rewind is a relatively difficult thing to code (you've got to clear all data an restore it according to "chapters" in the replay file).
Hosting a Replay game and having others join it is relatively simple. All the players are doing is downloading the map/replay file, and listening to the host's instructions for rewind/play/jump to chapter, etc.
So yeah, multi-user replay isn't show-stopping, but its by no means going to put the game behind schedule compared to more complex features (such as an avatar system and such).
That is actually fairly simple.Quote:
Originally Posted by Edfishy
You also have to make sure the replays are kept in sync in case someone is lagging or if someone's PC runs the replay at 60fps compared to stuttering at 15fps. Networking programming is a lot more complicated than you might think.Quote:
Hosting a Replay game and having others join it is relatively simple. All the players are doing is downloading the map/replay file, and listening to the host's instructions for rewind/play/jump to chapter, etc.
If it's not in their schedule it will put the game behind schedule.Quote:
So yeah, multi-user replay isn't show-stopping, but its by no means going to put the game behind schedule compared to more complex features (such as an avatar system and such).
Right. And you implement the complicated things first. Because if you have to cut simple features, you can always implement them quickly after launch, rather than having to wait a half year or more to get the complex one.Quote:
But let's do think once again in terms of complexity.
Rewind is a relatively difficult thing to code (you've got to clear all data an restore it according to "chapters" in the replay file).
Hosting a Replay game and having others join it is relatively simple. All the players are doing is downloading the map/replay file, and listening to the host's instructions for rewind/play/jump to chapter, etc.
And then there are simple priorities to consider: implement a feature that only X% of people will use, or implement a feature that 100% of people will use?
To be fair, they already have that network programming; otherwise multiplayer wouldn't work.Quote:
You also have to make sure the replays are kept in sync in case someone is lagging or if someone's PC runs the replay at 60fps compared to stuttering at 15fps. Networking programming is a lot more complicated than you might think.
Replays are just a list of actions and are played out by the game engine as if it were a game, so there is no simple way of rewinding. It is actually a very tricky thing to accomplish.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hav0x
Exactly as difficult as a regular multiplayer game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hav0x
Figuring out a way to do it is the hard part, implementing it is actually very simple. The way blizzard is doing it is basically embedding a bunch of saved games into that replay at a set interval so you can jump back and quickly load that saved game state.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noise
Much of the multiplayer network code can be reused but it's not as simple as just porting it over to the replay system, there are changes that need to be made and they have to build a new interface for it.Quote:
Exactly as difficult as a regular multiplayer game.
SC1 did it, it's obviously simple.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hav0x
The SC1 system was so strange that some people didn't even know it existed until just recently. I'd rather them take their time and release it in a patch with a good UI instead of just tacking it on like they did with SC1.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noise
If it means them putting this feature in a later patch to get the game out faster, I don't see how this is a huge deal. Many people complain about the game not coming out, but then when they try to speed it up, many people get upset about it. Seems like a lose-lose situation.
This is not to say that all of you are feeling negative about this, just my general outlook on the situation.
Yeah I agree I don't really care that much about it, but it would be a nice feature to add later.
I never realised that so many people on these forums don't watch replays on battle.net - FrozenArbiter, sorry for all the people who were knocking you just because your from TL.net. I'd like to apologize for all the hate from this forum. I feel like this forum is dedicated solely to theorycrafting here and if you are not a god of the sc lore or have the most theories that have 50 pages of blizzard's pre-beta release information to back it up then you get slammed. DemolitionSquid, get off your high horse man... hes just here posting probably one of the best articles on this forum so far. For people who act so high and mighty on here like they know everything you don't even know how to host a replay on battle.net? That is hilarious... Anyways, FrozenArbiter, great post.. hope to see you more here but I won't blame you if you don't return due to the horrible, horrible welcoming from the members here. Take care.
But if you take a look at sites that focus on competitive gaming like TL or GosuGamers, you're unlikely to find someone who hasn't used it at least once, unless he/she registered just recently.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas
It's probably the best learning tool and one of the best ways of socializing. Seeing as Blizzard spend so much time trying to copy ideas from various community portals, how can they possibly fail at providing such a basic feature that'd help them immensely with this whole "BNet 2.0 as a social network" task?
Rewinding is cool, but the loading times for games (and thus replays) are allegedly so short that I honestly couldn't care less about it, TBH.
I'm honestly surprised so many people didn't know about it - I've been watching online reps almost since the day I started playing online (which was as soon as I borrowed the game from a friend lol) o_O Someone must have showed me how I guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hav0x
Anyway, the SC replay system is in some regards preferable to the WC3 one. For instance, you don't have to switch between player views to see supply, just click on a unit of the side you want to see.
You don't need to remove fog of war/watch from an observer perspective to see both players, that's the default. Etc.
Yes but it's minor in that you can still see it again, by restarting the replay. Yes, it's inconvenient (comparatively), but not NEARLY as inconvenient as the work-arounds suggested for watching replays with friends ("sync up and watch in window mode"/"upload to youtube").Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas
It's a good "polish" type feature, for sure, but not "essential".
Quote:
I'm honestly surprised so many people didn't know about it - I've been watching online reps almost since the day I started playing online (which was as soon as I borrowed the game from a friend lol) o_O Someone must have showed me how I guess.
Bit of a double post thing going on in your single post Frozen. :? I knew about reps online ages ago, it’s quite fun... but what I’m still trying to figure out is... how to add a friend to your friends list. :p
I hope bnet 2.0 has this feature.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zabimaru
Hehe, I think I meant to quote a second post, hm I can't remember which one tho lol.
Is this a serious question? If so type: /f a "name" :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Zabimaru
Which brings up the question: why do you need to watch a replay in sync with other people to begin with? You can watch the replay, they can watch the replay. Each person can watch the replay on their own terms and at their own rate. What is the point of having everyone watch the replay in sync with each other?Quote:
Yes but it's minor in that you can still see it again, by restarting the replay. Yes, it's inconvenient (comparatively), but not NEARLY as inconvenient as the work-arounds suggested for watching replays with friends ("sync up and watch in window mode"/"upload to youtube").
And it still doesn't change the fact that more people will use rewinding than synchronous online replays.
So you can talk about it at the same time while everyone is watching instead of goingQuote:
What is the point of having everyone watch the replay in sync with each other?
"Oh you're not there yet? Just wait till you're at 26:50 man, that part is awesome!"
I used the online replays feature & enjoyed it, but at this point I don't really care if they launch with it. It's so minor of a feature that if they include it in a patch or expansion pack it doesn't make any difference as far as I'm concerned.
That's like asking what is the point of people watching movies together.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas
I honestly cant recall in the 4-5 years Ive played StarCraft where I wanted to share a replay with someone, let alone watch it with them. Most of the people who I believe do share it live are usually part of a pro-ladder of some sort, and probably have a website/youtube to share it on rather than watching it live. Meaning, theyll want to share it with more than 7 people. The exeption to this are the people who have an exeptional appitite to brag.Quote:
Originally Posted by FrozenArbiter
Being able to rewind on the other hand, is a big deal, and its way WAY more convenient than restarting the replay. I bet that there are 10x more people who will miss LAN play than people who will miss online replays (that being less than 1%). Not to mention Blizzard did say they will likely include it in an update (the replay feature itself had to be included in an update if you recall).
The only thing I think they should do is allow you to record replays, or parts of replays. I know they outright denied this, but hey, the Sims 2 and 3 have it, so why not? That would be alot cooler than online replays.
Yes, but how often will they use it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas
You're biased because you conveniently do not take into account how frequently people are going to use the feature (those who actually will use it will do so very frequently, as opposed to rewind) or how useful it's gonna be as far as Blizzard's plans go (online replays are very much in line with Blizzard's "esports" and "BNet as a social network" ideas). ;;
Why would you watch the replay together when you can just watch it alone? Why would you go to class when you can complete the course via correspondance?
One important aspect to teaching someone, whether math of StarCraft, is explaining and troubleshooting instantly as the student makes connections, asks questions, and considers solutions. It's why, in general, live instruction is more effective compared to delayed instruction (forums, articles, etc.). Likewise, it's why many people find online course instruction more useful than traditional correspondence. Your teacher is accessible to you and available to answer questions or clear points of confusion.
Replays are an effective tool for the competitive StarCraft scene. Yes, you don't require replays for TowerDefense, zombies, or Single Player; however replays are important for competitive players looking to learn something new or counter the metagame. In general (again, this may not apply to the person who can learn perfectly from a textbook, article etc.), it's more effective to learn with someone. It's increasingly more effective to learn with someone at the same time.
You could find any number of ways to correspond (YouTube, Windows Messenger, etc.), but you shouldn't have to if online replays are an available option. I think that's the part of the point FrozenArbiter is making (very modestly, at that) as well as, importantly, the social aspects [note: offline messages for LoA about BoxeR are pretty sick]. I would be curious to see Blizzard's reasoning for online replay removal in Warcraft III as well as (currently) StarCraft II. Could it be time management problems or engine limitations?
Thank you, FrozenArbiter, for highlighting the absence of this feature from StarCraft II. I'm sorry for the disrespect you've gotten from our forum community.
When you have people watching a movie, one guy doesn't arbitrarily stop, rewind, or fast forward to whatever they consider the "good parts".Quote:
That's like asking what is the point of people watching movies together.
Really? People who watch replays (which is a functional superset of people who watch online replays) will not use rewind as frequently as people who watch online replays? Do you have even the slightest shred of evidence to back that statement up with?Quote:
You're biased because you conveniently do not take into account how frequently people are going to use the feature (those who actually will use it will do so very frequently, as opposed to rewind)
Any time I have ever watched a replay, I have wanted to stop and go back a few seconds, at the very least. Rewind will be as useful as fastforward.
Is anyone saying that they're not? The subject under discussion is live online replays, not having replays.Quote:
Replays are an effective tool for the competitive StarCraft scene.
You mean other than simple prioritization? That is, they don't consider it as important as other things.Quote:
Could it be time management problems or engine limitations?
There's also the question of wanting features to be good and fully formed, rather than half-assed. For example, take online replays.
In SC1, this feature is basically implemented as an outgrowth of the way replays in general work. They're a hack; they hijack the input/network routines to make the rest of the game think that this input is coming from remote players, rather than being played back from a file. Which means that online replays are subject to the limitations of regular games: having a limit of 8 people (12 in SC2), etc.
However, there is no reason for them to have such limitations. You ought to be able to broadcast live matches or replays to hundreds of people, limited only by the upstream bandwidth of your machine. You could even imagine dedicated servers that take the replay data and broadcast it to millions of people, thus allowing tournaments to be watched from an in-game perspective.
Of course, this is no longer a minor outgrowth of the implementation of replays; this is a fully-formed feature, one that needs significant developmental investment in time and resources. I'm sure many would rather they throw in the hack fix and then later implement the real thing, but I'd rather they not waste their time and do it the right way when they're able.
Just because you have the option, doesn't mean you have to use it.Quote:
When you have people watching a movie, one guy doesn't arbitrarily stop, rewind, or fast forward to whatever they consider the "good parts".
Anyhow, the type of online replay watchability you describe would be great, and they can save it for an expansion. In the meanwhile, I'm not interested in waiting 1.5 years (they predicted a minimum of 1 year between expansions btw) without being able to watch even basic reps online.
It'll probably be about a year per expansion. That's how long Frozen Throne took.Quote:
Originally Posted by FrozenArbiter
But they could just implement it in a patch.
The stuff with the rewind, I don't think it's so much that they made the effort to make them rewindable, so much as they figured out a workable way to make them rewindable. It was more a deal of inspiration rather than hard work.
My thinking here is that it's going to get implemented whenever it'd have gotten implemented. If it's finished for 1.02, then that's just when they'd have released the game with this feature I think.
I don't know if that's accurate, but yeah, whatever. It's not really a huge major concern for me either. :S Of course I wouldn't be adverse to it being in the game.
That doesn't prove a single thing.Quote:
When you have people watching a movie, one guy doesn't arbitrarily stop, rewind, or fast forward to whatever they consider the "good parts".
People watching replays together share moments together at the same time, just like people watching movies.
DVD players have FF / Rewind controls, it's just that nobody is stupid enough to use it arbitrarily. Even if someone is stupid enough, the others will have something to say about that.
Also, if DVD players have *one* remote control, replays could also. It could be done so that the player "hosting" the replay is the one in control of REW, FF, etc.
Pretty sure how that's how it's going to work anyway. In SC1 only the host could speed up or pause the replay.Quote:
It could be done so that the player "hosting" the replay is the one in control of REW, FF, etc.
Quote:
When you have people watching a movie, one guy doesn't arbitrarily stop, rewind, or fast forward to whatever they consider the "good parts".
I have a friend who does this... :/