Balance Imbalance Changes

Tychus, I think a problem with your argument is that hypothetically, if a Zerg player is perfect and spawns larvae whenever possible while not morphing them (let's say 100 energy's worth), they will end up with the same amount of larvae as someone who accumulated 100 energy on a Queen and then stacked 4 Spawn Larvae at once.

So let's say that off 2 Hatcheries, you'd have 38 Larvae to spend during/after a fight. You claim that that's overpowered, but it's possible to achieve right now.

Unless you feel that the balance of Spawn Larvae hinges on the player not being able to be completely on top of it.

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Originally Posted by GRUNT

Tychus, I think a problem with your argument is that hypothetically, if a Zerg player is perfect and spawns larvae whenever possible while not morphing them (let's say 100 energy's worth), they will end up with the same amount of larvae as someone who accumulated 100 energy on a Queen and then stacked 4 Spawn Larvae at once.

So let's say that off 2 Hatcheries, you'd have 38 Larvae to spend during/after a fight. You claim that that's overpowered, but it's possible to achieve right now.

Unless you feel that the balance of Spawn Larvae hinges on the player not being able to be completely on top of it.

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Probably has more to do with the fact that if it stacked then you could just make 4 queens per base (or even just for 2 bases) and always have 17 larvae on each hatchery every 40 seconds.

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Originally Posted by TheRabidDeer

Probably has more to do with the fact that if it stacked then you could just make 4 queens per base (or even just for 2 bases) and always have 17 larvae on each hatchery every 40 seconds.

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Ah yeah, that's true :P. OH WELL! I guess Zerg macro is just destined to be hardcore compared to Terran and Protoss :p.

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Originally Posted by GRUNT

Tychus, I think a problem with your argument is that hypothetically, if a Zerg player is perfect and spawns larvae whenever possible while not morphing them (let's say 100 energy's worth), they will end up with the same amount of larvae as someone who accumulated 100 energy on a Queen and then stacked 4 Spawn Larvae at once.

So let's say that off 2 Hatcheries, you'd have 38 Larvae to spend during/after a fight. You claim that that's overpowered, but it's possible to achieve right now.

Unless you feel that the balance of Spawn Larvae hinges on the player not being able to be completely on top of it.

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One requires skill, one requires fingers.

Which would you rather a eSport be based around?

I think the general consensus is that Zerg is the weakest race.

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Originally Posted by TychusFindlay

One requires skill, one requires fingers.

Which would you rather a eSport be based around?

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RabidDeer raised a good point as to why Spawn Larvae stacking would be imbalanced, but this however, I don't buy.

At least, not as long as MULEs and Chrono Boost still function the way they do.

The extra minerals you get from MULEs may be used on infrastructure so that you can build more units later when you need them, or to build more units now if you're planning on making or recovering from an attack. In that sense, it's a lot like Spawn Larvae, only much more forgiving.

Likewise, Chronoboosting 2 Nexuses lets you get 4 Probes at about the same time it takes for Zerg to morph 4 Drones simultaneously, which is pretty respectable. It's even more impressive later in the game where Protoss have multiple production buildings, and Zerg need to worry about Larvae.

If after a fight, Protoss need to replenish their army and they've been stockpiling Energy, they can chronoboost their Warp Gates and get double production. If Zerg has been stockpiling Energy and don't have Larvae already spawning at their hatcheries, then they're worse off.

Like with Spawn Larvae, there's usually no benefit in 'saving' MULEs to cast only at a particular time (with the exception maybe if you're about to grab a gold expo).

While I agree that skill-based macro is good, I don't understand why you feel that that philosophy shouldn't apply to the Terrans and Protoss' macro mechanics.

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Like with Spawn Larvae, there's usually no benefit in 'saving' MULEs to cast only at a particular time (with the exception maybe if you're about to grab a gold expo).

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While true, there's also no downside to saving MULES. That's the main problem: Spawn Larva is the most unforgiving. Every second you're not using it is a second of larva production forever lost.

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

While true, there's also no downside to saving MULES. That's the main problem: Spawn Larva is the most unforgiving. Every second you're not using it is a second of larva production forever lost.

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I actually do feel that there's is a downside to not constantly using MULEs and that that's just the same principle as remembering to spend down your cash. If you've been MULEing constantly, you'll still end up with the same amount of cash as you would if you spammed all your MULEs at once, but you may have had minerals earlier that you needed.

That said, we're definitely arguing the same thing - Spawn Larvae is indeed much more unforgiving.

I want to see sentries forcefield time cut by 25% at least, its just too good in the early-mid pushing.

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I actually do feel that there's is a downside to not constantly using MULEs and that that's just the same principle as remembering to spend down your cash.

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Yes, but if your macro is slipping (which is why you wouldn't constantly spam them to begin with), then you can recover from your mistakes. You can't with Spawn Larva.

Imagine if a player delays their Spawn Larva and MULEs by just 5 seconds. That is, they cast the spell 5 seconds after they have the energy/available Hatchery. For the Terran, they effectively get a single 5 second delay over the course of their play; the time only gets factored in once. For the Zerg, every SL cycle incurs a cumulative time penalty.

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I want to see sentries forcefield time cut by 25% at least, its just too good in the early-mid pushing.

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To be honest, I think FF is OK as it stands. It's powerful, yes, but that's not bad in and of itself. If they were to nerf it, I would prefer that they just gave it HP (but made the attack priority so low that you could never accidentally attack them). Enough that a few Zerglings beating on them couldn't kill them, but massage of ranged units could. Like maybe 700 HP, with no attributes (neither Light nor Armored nor Structure nor Massive).

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

Yes, but if your macro is slipping (which is why you wouldn't constantly spam them to begin with), then you can recover from your mistakes. You can't with Spawn Larva.

Imagine if a player delays their Spawn Larva and MULEs by just 5 seconds. That is, they cast the spell 5 seconds after they have the energy/available Hatchery. For the Terran, they effectively get a single 5 second delay over the course of their play; the time only gets factored in once. For the Zerg, every SL cycle incurs a cumulative time penalty.

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I think that you're misinterpreting what I said :p. I'm not disagreeing with anything you said here, I just wanted to point out that saving MULEs vs constant use of them isn't completely without a drawback :p.

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

While true, there's also no downside to saving MULES. That's the main problem: Spawn Larva is the most unforgiving. Every second you're not using it is a second of larva production forever lost.

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Unless you don´t use the larvae the second they land. Then you just block the natural Hatcheryproduction of Larvae.

Also missing Production capacity from Terran and Protoss Production buildings is also forvever lost. There is also a much higher concern about having the WRONG production infrastructure with Terran and Protoss a concern Zerg can´t ever have.

Macro mechanics are not merely the new abilities in SC2 that let you get more minerals but the whole process from the resourcegathering to having the right units at the right time in the right place.

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Originally Posted by Woland

I think the general consensus is that Zerg is the weakest race.

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I don't think it's the weakest, as an additional hatchery will help significantly even those who might not have the apm to maintain the level of production.

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Unless you don´t use the larvae the second they land. Then you just block the natural Hatcheryproduction of Larvae.

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Except that Spawn Larva makes more larva per unit time than the natural Hatchery's production. So even if you can't use the Larva yet, you're still better off casting SL as often as possible.

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Also missing Production capacity from Terran and Protoss Production buildings is also forvever lost. There is also a much higher concern about having the WRONG production infrastructure with Terran and Protoss a concern Zerg can´t ever have.

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Which is no different from SC1. Spawn Larva is new. All you're saying is that macro for Terrans/Protoss is just as easy as SC1, while it has gotten harder for the Zerg.

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

\Which is no different from SC1. Spawn Larva is new. All you're saying is that macro for Terrans/Protoss is just as easy as SC1, while it has gotten harder for the Zerg.

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The fact that a zerg player has to work harder to be on par with another race means imbalance.

If anything, Mothership should have the Structure tag.

They should add a cooldown to the mule. Its length should be determined by more skilled people than me. That way you cant just spam mule if you forget it takes time and much more attention.
There is a reason to save up mules. As a terran player when I take a gold I usually save up mules because they're more useful on the gold. its situational but true