Giving the Obelisk Wormhole Transit

Monolith

Cost= 300 minerals

Proton Charge: Same
Argus Link: Same
Shield Regeneration: Same
Wormhole Transit: Can teleport to any point in pylon power



So I spent the night trying to figure out why the Queen and MULE were better macro agents than the Obelisk. The 4 elements that Queen and MULE had that the obelisk lacked were Positional Impact, Mobile, Cool Unit Model, and Racial Character. I think all of these can be added to the Obelisk by giving it Wormhole Transit

Notice that the Monolith can now Teleport to a Warp-Prism and lend shield and energy regeneration to Warp-In attacks. Also, there is no long this need to spam Obelisks all over the map. You make however many you need and then teleport them to a base when the Proton Charge wears off. I would make Proton Charge last longer to complement this.

Obviously this would require us to rework the Mothership. Maybe give it Planet Cracker back. Maybe make it not slow as mollasis. I don’t see that as being too hard of a task. The Obelisk is much better at the Base Defender role.

For a graphic I would make the Monolith a large floating building. It should have an ominous Dark Templar feel. Like a Dark Templar version of a Nexus. Something like oh say this…


http://www.fightingtigersofveda.com/apocmonolith.gif

About time you thought this up, I was waiting for someone to go on the same thought pattern as me :P

Though I'd like it to be just Obelisk, Monolith isn't that original regardless of its enigmatic feel xD


-Psi

So you want to make it a unit?

Interesting, but I'm not sure I'm in to it.

What about giving it Recall? I always thought that was one of the most fun and strategic abilities, and it further emphasizes Protoss teleportation mobility. My biggest concern is that it might be too much.

Actually, I think it the build they had for the press release recently, the Mothership had both Planet Cracker back, and incredibly slow moving speed. Just watch the video where they were moving around with it; that's got to be almost as slow as a Reaver.

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Originally Posted by ManjiSanji

So you want to make it a unit?

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I want to give it that special feeling that all units have. Personality. Charector.

Like this giant ominous relic that appears above the battle field casting powerful spells to augement the protoss warriors.

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Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur

Like this giant ominous relic that appears above the battle field casting powerful spells to augement the protoss warriors.

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U mean like the Mothership SHOULD be.

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Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid

U mean like the Mothership SHOULD be.

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Yah but different kinds of warriors. Mothership should be part of the fleet. Rampaging around the map and kicking down doors with the rest of the Protoss armada. When you make your uber super awesome unit do you really want to park it at home? The only good way to get it in the opponents base is to do a proxy pylon which is what youve been doing all game with warp-in anyway.

Being local is one of the contrasts of the Obelisk to the mobile Queen and the location independend Orbital Command. You can´t really look at the other races and go "What do they have what Protoss don´t have and how could they get it".

I am thoroughly convinced the only way to balance PC is to limit it to a certain number of Probes, limit how often it can be cast so it doesn't feel like busywork, and give it a viable downside (like affected Probes losing their shields for an extended period of time).

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Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur

When you make your uber super awesome unit do you really want to park it at home?

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I have been thinking that for a long time. Seems like the Mothership is going to fall into a boring role of defending late game expansions.

My lore/gameplay/cool concept for the Mothership was something like this:

Build the MS with very late game tech at a high cost.
The enemy gets an announcement similar to Nuclear Launch Detected.
Something like "The Protoss Mothership has entered orbit".
Then the opponent knows this uber unit is on the way and they better be ready for it.
Opponent starts building anti-air like crazy cause he knows this badass and the rest of the Protoss army is probably moving across the map immediately.

Instead, we have a one of a kind uber unit that will probably sit over your late game expansion cloaking photon cannons. Still an impressive defensive unit that might help you win the game, but sure doesn't sound like the only one at a time unit in the game that got me excited in the first gameplay video two years ago.

If your Obelisk idea helps fill the base defense role and lets the MS be the ultimate late game offensive weapon, then I am all for it.

i like the idea of making the obelisk a non-spam building. warping, of course, would cost energy, but not too much as to make the player build, say one obelisk per expansion or less? i would like to see, though, a brutal ability that isn't directly offensive, and that is a passive ability. and, the monolith building is dodgy. it's too big to put anywhere! and it doesn't suit the dt as being lithe

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Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid

I am thoroughly convinced the only way to balance PC is to limit it to a certain number of Probes, limit how often it can be cast so it doesn't feel like busywork, and give it a viable downside (like affected Probes losing their shields for an extended period of time).

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Demo you are going to love this. I crunched the numbers and at Saturation point(24 workers/3 per rotation) we find that Proton Charge gives +8 minerals per trip time. In contrast one MULE provides +15 minerals per trip time. I havnt done zerg yet but Im guessing its less then both.


If anything you should be worrying about MULEs ;)

Why not use the same Nexus, thus limiting it's use to coherent levels, as to not be so an exponential mechanic? Just upgrade the Nexus to Twilight tech, and you've got some nice spells that can be casted inside any power field, including the macro mechanic. Even more: the Twilight Nexus could proyect a big power field around it, so as to give it an additional edge over the standard Nexus.

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Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur

Demo you are going to love this. I crunched the numbers and at Saturation point(24 workers/3 per rotation) we find that Proton Charge gives +8 minerals per trip time. In contrast one MULE provides +15 minerals per trip time. I havnt done zerg yet but Im guessing its less then both.


If anything you should be worrying about MULEs ;)

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I AM worried about MULES. I have said MULTIPLE times it appears to currently be the more powerful mechanic because of the current numbers. But that CAN be fixed by adjusting numbers.

PC can not be fixed as long as it stays an exponential mechanic. It will always either be UP or OP.

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Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid

I AM worried about MULES. I have said MULTIPLE times it appears to currently be the more powerful mechanic because of the current numbers. But that CAN be fixed by adjusting numbers.

PC can not be fixed as long as it stays an exponential mechanic. It will always either be UP or OP.

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You have repeated that continiously yet People still fail to believe you. Maybe they fail Pattern recognition.

I actually HOPE PC on it´s own would be Underpowered. You should get the Obelisk for the OTHER abilities and PC would be a compensation if there wouldn´t be a opportunity to use it´s abilities.

Even you have to admit that both Queen and OC have abilities you might choose over the Macro ones - the Obelisk just needs that too.

It's true though, PC has potential of being UP/OP if it stays like it is right now. It's simply an APM sink, great for those who use it but damned for those who don't.

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Originally Posted by unentschieden

You have repeated that continiously yet People still fail to believe you. Maybe they fail Pattern recognition.

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I noticed this too. Very strange. Its almost like my extensive track record of calling Blizzards next move and coming up with ideas that Blizzard emulates in some way means nothing.

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Originally Posted by Norfindel

Why not use the same Nexus, thus limiting it's use to coherent levels, as to not be so an exponential mechanic? Just upgrade the Nexus to Twilight tech, and you've got some nice spells that can be casted inside any power field, including the macro mechanic. Even more: the Twilight Nexus could proyect a big power field around it, so as to give it an additional edge over the standard Nexus.

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Not a bad suggestion. Though I have to say that I really like the idea of teleporting a building around. It makes the recharge energy and shields abilities so much more effective.


Also Demo I love how now your saying the ability is potentially underpowered and potentially overpowered. Once again Id like to point out how pointless it is to try and figure out balance on a forum. You need the game.


What track record? Were you the one with the Thesis about race specific macro mechanics? Oh no wait that was some one else...

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Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur

You need the game.

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No, I don't. Some things are obviously OP by their very nature.

Ex. Motherships original Blackhole.

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Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur

What track record?

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Ive been here two years. In that time I've predicted many things, including the removal and implementation of many units, mechanics, and changes. Far too many to name.

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Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid

Ive been here two years. In that time I've predicted many things, including the removal and implementation of many units, mechanics, and changes. Far too many to name.

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LOL you always do that. Name 10 :)

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Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur

LOL you always do that. Name 10 :)

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Things Removed
Soul Hunter
Cobra
Geyser Shutdown
Carrier Fighter Escorts
Scourge

Things Added
Marauder (based off my Epoch unit)
Creep Drop (based off ability on my Terralisk unit)
Less accessible Siege Tank (its more powerful but more expensive)
Banelings (more accurately, I predicted more/another Zerg suicide unit, and that Infested Terrans would be more accessible)
Roach (predicted a Zerg unit focused on regeneration)

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Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid

Things Removed
Soul Hunter
Cobra
Geyser Shutdown
Carrier Fighter Escorts
Scourge

Things Added
Marauder (based off my Epoch unit)
Creep Drop (based off ability on my Terralisk unit)
Less accessible Siege Tank (its more powerful but more expensive)
Banelings (more accurately, I predicted more/another Zerg suicide unit, and that Infested Terrans would be more accessible)
Roach (predicted a Zerg unit focused on regeneration)

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hahahahah ahhahahahahhah HAHAHAHHAHAHAHA

I don't even hate you any more. That's how ridiculous you are. It's funny now!

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Originally Posted by SaharaDrac

hahahahah ahhahahahahhah HAHAHAHHAHAHAHA

I don't even hate you any more. That's how ridiculous you are. It's funny now!

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I thought u weren't going to peep my posts? Liar!

Anyway, ur a fucking tool. So good luck with that.

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Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid

Things Removed
Soul Hunter
Cobra
Geyser Shutdown
Carrier Fighter Escorts
Scourge

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I think we all predicted those ;)

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Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid

Things Removed
Things Added
Marauder (based off my Epoch unit)
Creep Drop (based off ability on my Terralisk unit)
Less accessible Siege Tank (its more powerful but more expensive)
Banelings (more accurately, I predicted more/another Zerg suicide unit, and that Infested Terrans would be more accessible)
Roach (predicted a Zerg unit focused on regeneration)

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Id have to see the links but ok ill give you props. However none of these are related to macro.

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Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid

I thought u weren't going to peep my posts? Liar!

Anyway, ur a fucking tool. So good luck with that.

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I did lie. I just HAD to see your predictions, Nostradamus. They were just as hilarious as *I* predicted! I mean, you KNEW they were gonna remove geyser shutdown? Wow, what a genius!

I just love your tone of "How interesting that everyone doesn't recognize my brilliance. Clearly they're plebians."

Also, I think you let your super-genius veneer slip a bit when you said "U R", like a teenager on a text message there, might wanna edit that.

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Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur

I think we all predicted those ;)

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Irrelevant. I was still right, even if everyone else was too.

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Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur

Id have to see the links but ok ill give you props. However none of these are related to macro.

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I never said they were/would be.

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Originally Posted by SaharaDrac

I did lie. I just HAD to see your predictions, Nostradamus. They were just as hilarious as *I* predicted! I mean, you KNEW they were gonna remove geyser shutdown? Wow, what a genius!

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Thank you.

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Originally Posted by SaharaDrac

I just love your tone of "How interesting that everyone doesn't recognize my brilliance. Clearly they're plebians."

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I'm a very dominant person, don't be afraid.

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Originally Posted by SaharaDrac

Also, I think you let your super-genius veneer slip a bit when you said "U R", like a teenager on a text message there, might wanna edit that.

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No, I think I spelt it exactly as I intended to.

Are you going to BlizzCon DSquid?

Saharadrac, would you please shut the fuck up? Take your damned trolling to PMs.

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Originally Posted by SaharaDrac

Are you going to BlizzCon DSquid?

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No, I have other obligations.

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Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid

No, I have other obligations.

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That's a shame. I would LOVE to meet you!

Watch yourself Sahara, no-one likes a newbie know-it-all, especially not seasoned innovators and debators like me, DSquid and Triceron are. also, PC is of its current mechanisms unbalanced (the ability to get twice the bonus for the same cost at higher levels is unbalanced), and if you can't see it you're damned blind.

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Originally Posted by mattii

watch yourself sahara, no-one likes a newbie know-it-all, especially not seasoned innovators and debators like me and dsquid are. Also, pc is of its current mechanisms unbalanced (the ability to get twice the bonus for the same cost at higher levels is unbalanced), and if you can't see it you're damned blind.

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Wow !!!!!! Is this real? Am I getting Punk'd???

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Originally Posted by MattII

Watch yourself Sahara, no-one likes a newbie know-it-all, especially not seasoned innovators and debators like me, DSquid and Triceron are. also, PC is of its current mechanisms unbalanced (the ability to get twice the bonus for the same cost at higher levels is unbalanced), and if you can't see it you're damned blind.

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Maybe you missed the part where one mule is actually more effective then a Proton Charge at mineral saturation.

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Originally Posted by SaharaDrac

Wow !!!!!! Is this real? Am I getting Punk'd???

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I'm not even going to 'pretend' to know what that means, but if you mean bashed, no, that was just a friendly warning from a more senior member.

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Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur

Maybe you missed the part where one mule is actually more effective then a Proton Charge at mineral saturation.

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Did I say OP, no, I don't think I did, no, the term I used was 'unbalanced', which PC is, and which you'd see if you took your blinders off for more than two seconds.

I'll just say this:

If you need to tell people on an internet forum how smart and innovative you are, then chances are you are neither.

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Originally Posted by SaharaDrac

I'll just say this:

If you need to tell people on an internet forum how smart and innovative you are, then chances are you are neither.

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Double standard much?

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Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid

Double standard much?

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I've never claimed to be brilliant. Only asked you if you've ever considered that maybe, just MAYBE, you weren't as brilliant as you think.

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Originally Posted by SaharaDrac

I'll just say this:

If you need to tell people on an internet forum how smart and innovative you are, then chances are you are neither.

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Consider this an informal warning. Stop posting ABOUT the people in the topic, and just stay on the subject at hand. You're entitled to your opinion, but you don't need to keep dragging it out, and baiting everybody that you disagree with.

We're all here to discuss various aspects of StarCraft 2, and many of us haven't played it yet. Coming up with ideas based on observed issues it the purpose of theorycrafting. If you don't have anything constructive to add to a discussion, please refrain from posting in it.


X :cool:

Mules are effective but are on a longer 'cooldown' period since Orbital Command is limited by the fact you only have ONE per Command Center, and its energy is shared with a few other abilities. This is a forgiving system for players who use Mules seldomly compared to pros who use it a lot, since even pros are limited by the amount of energy the Orbital Command has at a time. The most they could spam this is, lets say, 4 times every 2-3 minutes.

Proton Charge can potentially be kept up 100% of the time given you have obelisks available. Even if it is a slower rate of mineral gathering than Mules, the fact that it can be kept up 100% makes it a deep APM sink that gives pros the major boost, and increases the resourcing gap between a pro Protoss player and a less skillful/mindful one.

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Originally Posted by XSOLDIER

Consider this an informal warning. Stop posting ABOUT the people in the topic, and just stay on the subject at hand. You're entitled to your opinion, but you don't need to keep dragging it out, and baiting everybody that you disagree with.

We're all here to discuss various aspects of StarCraft 2, and many of us haven't played it yet. Coming up with ideas based on observed issues it the purpose of theorycrafting. If you don't have anything constructive to add to a discussion, please refrain from posting in it.


X :cool:

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Ok, but I originally reacted to him wondering to himself why people don't agree with him, when he's clearly so "smart", and predicts everything so "accurately". Is that not posting about the people in the thread? Is that related to the discussion at hand? He violated what you are warning me about before I did, in this very thread. Why am I held to different behavioral standars than him? Is it his post count?

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Originally Posted by SaharaDrac

Ok, but I originally reacted to him wondering to himself why people don't agree with him, when he's clearly so "smart", and predicts everything so "accurately". Is that not posting about the people in the thread? Is that related to the discussion at hand? He violated what you are warning me about before I did, in this very thread. Why am I held to different behavioral standars than him? Is it his post count?

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It's not different behavioral standards. It's a matter of many of your posts adhering to a trend of either insulting others, or baiting people. And it would be nice if it stopped.