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Edfishy is voted #1 artist of all time! I think his idea is awesome from the drawing alone. It'd be cool to have a little pathway of line-o-sight blocked and I can rage in with banelings.
I am probably going to be using this ability a lot to stop reaper and hellion econ raids, or at least slow them down. zling/bane/corruptor/overseer combo ftw.
You can just do that with multiple overseers and smart cast. ^^
I wonder if you can completely cut off somebody's vision with a line of these clouds.
That gets to a sticky point: exactly how do these work?Quote:
I wonder if you can completely cut off somebody's vision with a line of these clouds.
Here's a diagram of one of the LOS blockers from BR3, rotated to make it easier to see:
The '*' are the LOS blockers.Code:* *
A * C *
******
B
We know already that both units A and B cannot see C, nor can C see A or B (assuming they're all on different sides, of course.
The real question is that, if B is within the radius of vision for A, can B see A? Are LOS blockers based on directions or regions.
This is not a question that has been addressed. Thus far, LOS blockers come in two types: a line that separates one section of terrain from another, and a specific region inside which has its own LOS. Except for the fairly rare situation outlined above, the "shadowing" effects of LOS blocking is basically non-existent.
Further, direction-based LOS blocking is much more complicated in terms of implementation than region-based LOS blocking. Region-based LOS blocking only takes a quick rectangle-in-point test. Direction-based requires what is essentially a ray-cast between every pair of units in the neighborhood of these things. This is not good.
If you're going to be spamming these things down from your dozen Overseers, especially with the Zerg having their numbers, region-based LOS blocking makes a lot more sense.
Now maybe they have a way to do these ray-casts very fast; they are 2D after all. Ray-circle intersections come down to a single square root. But I don't think they'd implement it like this.
Aren't they fundamentally the same? The specific region one just being a much smaller area than the area on one side of the LOS blockers in the line example?Quote:
This is not a question that has been addressed. Thus far, LOS blockers come in two types: a line that separates one section of terrain from another, and a specific region inside which has its own LOS.
Itīs directional, it even works that way with LoS blockers in Starcraft:Broodwar. Back then they were simply cliffs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius
Yeah, but isn't it a big "puff" like Dark Swarm right now?
Dunno, I just think individual smaller puffs (like the boxes of smoke in BR3) in a pattern would be more interesting than a big area of blindedness.
Finally, my talents are recognized! :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Runei
You gotta do what you gotta do when the PC you're on doesn't have Photoshop on it. :)
I really don't have an idea of how it might work right now, but I think it'd be cool if the overlord kind of released its cloud and created a wall with it (by moving the overlord) so that you have your own version of a temporary LOS blocker like tall weeds and stuff but in your own design.
If you want to make a giant cloud out of it, just have it stay still and the cloud would expand.
I'm pretty sure they don't. I'd have to make an SC2 map to see, but I'm pretty sure that cliffs don't shadow things behind them, just the things on them.Quote:
it even works that way with LoS blockers in Starcraft:Broodwar. Back then they were simply cliffs.
I don't think anyone asked the most fundamental question of all: does this spell actually have a casting range or does the OS "drop" the cloud, in the same way the OL drops creep?
If it's the latter, that negates a lot of the ideas you guys have been having (like casting clouds over static defenses to be able to use zerglings more efficiently, or doing the same over a group of marines and running banelings at the).
I think it would be incredible (for the zerg player ;)) if the OS could cast this from a distance, but on the other hand, if the OS has to be on top of the region that's going to be clouded... it seems to be a bit too much of a defensive spell because that means it would almost always be cast over YOUR units, and not your opponent's. It also happens to be a spell reserved to rather small battles and relatively early game (no flying units around).
For example, even if the OS could cast this from a distance, it would be useless against a "beyond early-game" terran bio army (medivac) or a protoss army (obs). And don't forget it's a T2 spell, and all races opposing zerg will probably be going for detection much faster because of baneling traps.
It still sounds like a totally awesome spell though ;)
They do.Quote:
but I'm pretty sure that cliffs don't shadow things behind them, just the things on them.
It happens all the time on Python when a Terran player places tanks at his natural. An enemy player who is also Terran can place is tanks just on the other side of the cliff and neither will see each other without vision.
I would love it if they implemented this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Edfishy
I think the vision would be pretty much like actual vision, A could not see B. I believe the LoS blockers are just like small cliffs, they simply block LoS directly from the unit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas
It sounds like it comes from right under the seer. This doesn't mean the ideas are flawed though, It can still be used effectively against tank drops on your cliffs, or against cannon rushes while they're warping, to buy you time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammy
Back to 'hiding tech' - if they require a spotter then, running a probe into a building covered in cloud would not reveal the tech zerg is using then correct? It will make seeing if zerg is going roach or spire harder. I like the idea a lot. I feel like now with these aerial spellcasters that zerg is going to have to maintain the skies a lot more, even more so in fact since its a supply+caster, and that everyones going to be gunning after it. I will be using hella corruptors. I never liked defiler simply because it got sniped by literally everything and was slow and lacked mobility on the ground, now with air casters should diversify that a lot - finally glad to see some zerg casters so I can take advantage of smart casting. Does anyone know if the cloud is permanent or what is the duration? Didn't see it off hand.
Er... it would reveal what's under the cloud if they walk into the cloud.Quote:
Back to 'hiding tech' - if they require a spotter then, running a probe into a building covered in cloud would not reveal the tech zerg is using then correct?
I wonder how overlapping clouds interact...
so units under the cloud can see everything within the cloud even without a spotter, and can not see outside then, without a spotter outside. Any idea on if this applies to offensive buildings being inside the cloud allowing 'spotter' inside? Sorry for the dumb question just want to make sure I understand it all.
This ability is such a rip-off of Rikimaru's cloud skill in DotA lol.
Has there ever been a visibility difference between a unit and a building?Quote:
Any idea on if this applies to offensive buildings being inside the cloud allowing 'spotter' inside?
I really dono, is there? its guna make harassing bases kind of tricky cuz if u catch a bit of building in it then this grants vision in it and kind of makes it pointless (am i getting this right or is this still wrong?)
I'd imagine they would just overlap. You see in, you see in, and that's it, one cloud or two.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius
As for the "Rikimaru rip off" comment....no. Rikimaru's cloud actually makes units unclickable because there's a graphic over them. Ranged units still shoot right into the cloud, because they still have "vision". Also, Rikimaru's cloud reduces attack speed, movement speed, and hit rate...Spore Cloud does nothing of the sort.
I'm imagining they have two separate vision boxes, and that if you're IN the overlap you can see into both, but if you're in one, you can't see in the other.Quote:
I'd imagine they would just overlap. You see in, you see in, and that's it, one cloud or two.
I don't follow you.Quote:
its guna make harassing bases kind of tricky cuz if u catch a bit of building in it then this grants vision in it and kind of makes it pointless
If you're trying to use this on enemy units, then the purpose is to blind them to the outside world unless they have a spotter. This is best for relatively immobile units like Siege Tanks, Lurkers and the like. Which means if they have a nearby building that you don't get in the radius of effect, then the building's vision will help the unit inside it see where necessary. Depending on where this building is and how much vision it provides, it could be a minor annoyance or totally screw up your plans.
LOL what a bs, it doesn't work similar in anyway... Riki's cloud silence the enemies, slows them and make them miss by 70%, i don't see this here, i see just normal LoS blocker. You can say that Dark Swarm was sort of Riki's Cloud, but not this.Quote:
Originally Posted by l3lackjax
Yeah thats what I was trying to say.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius
Then it's just a ring of smoke. When vision bumps against the smoke, it's blocked. Right?
But it isn't that clear to me. Maybe units inside won't see anything without a spotter.
If the fog can't be countered i'm predicting imba.
It can: any air unit can see what happends inside, and if the Zerg player's spotter is killed, his own units won't be able to see outside the cloud.Quote:
Originally Posted by SlickR
What do you mean...countered?Quote:
Originally Posted by SlickR
It's just a vision blocker. You 'counter' it by moving out of it or into it, or having a flying unit in the area.
LOL everythings imba when the fans first hear it.
You could also have each of the smoke clouds be a unit. Have the Overseer spit out 'propeller' Zergs that burrow into the ground and continually kick up the dust until they die or are micro-killed by an enemy.
It could just be a cloud that the zerg player can more around. Like razor swarm was but for Line of Sight. I like it :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Edfishy
Go post that idea on B.Net gameplay forums so theyll see it.
Too complicated...Quote:
Originally Posted by Edfishy
Gotta keep it as simple as possible. It's already pretty easy to counter, and is as much of a double-edged sword as anything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius
The propellar zerg is alittle complicated but if you make the cloud itself movable then its actually kinda simple. A movable cloud that blocks LoS for ground units.
Dunno, for me it sounds stronger when it moves. Imagine moving cloud and inside tons of Zlings and Blings.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur
Well, visually it wouldn't be too complicated. I guess it'd come down to the collision box to make sure its user-friendly to order units to kill them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius
EDIT:
And making sure their HP levels are balanced, etc.
(Gotta love MS Paint)
http://www.zanmgt.com/aaron/overseer.jpg
Maybe. I think Id have to play with both versions to see which works better with the game as a whole. Still its an idea worth pursueing.Quote:
Originally Posted by RamiZ
It sounds simple, but it really isn't. And all in all it's sort of a pointless change.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur
...not to be a huge buzzkill....
Looks great, but making it actually move, is a balancing nightmare that's really not worth it gameplay-wise. The mechanics should be as simple and straight-forward as possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Edfishy
Might be fun for the campaign I guess.
What about it is a balancing nightmare?Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius
[enters balance arguement mode]
Nah, it doesn't need to move. As long as you can make the Overseer spit out several (or you can click-drag to specify a path of'em) it's awesome enough to just have a LOS blocker.
I was just thinking if it were too imbalanced (for the Zerg player) then perhaps make them immobile units so they can be right-click targeted (units won't auto target them) by an enemy to clear the smoke.
Well. It just cheapens the ability to make it destructible. Makes the game more about brute force rather than unit placement.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur
One of the main uses of the ability is that it shuts down immobile or semi-mobile units. Well, if it can move on its own, now it can shut down anything that's not fast enough to get out of it. It's one thing to shut off Siege Tanks in Siege Mode, giving you the time it takes for them to unsiege and move out of the effect. It's quite another to make them essentially permanently blind.Quote:
What about it is a balancing nightmare?
It's strong enough against immobile defenses, punishing them for their immobility. Making them work against mobile targets is a little much.
[exits balance arguement mode]Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius
Oh I thought you were saying that making a spell movable was a balancing nightmare. I dont totally see what you gain by giving the spell hit points.