That's a really good question.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaharaDrac
I would think they should, considering they can be targeted by air-to-air attacks.
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That's a really good question.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaharaDrac
I would think they should, considering they can be targeted by air-to-air attacks.
Karune said it can also block the LOS of units on cliffs, so that basically means only air units can see past the cloud.Quote:
The cloud is just a regular LOS blocker, like the weeds, smoke, or high ground. So yes.
The thing is, does the colossus count as both a ground and air unit? Or is it some sort of exception?
It has the vision of an air unit, regardless of its ground unit status, so I think it can see over and into the fog.
-Psi
How is that different from regular LOS blockers? I don't think that cliffs are enough to provide vision over them.Quote:
Karune said it can also block the LOS of units on cliffs
O, I was under the impression that units on cliffs could see over tall grass and such.
The only map I can think of where there are cliffs near LOS blockers is the map in BR1. And the LOS blockers only block a portion of the view, and not the portion from the cliff. So it may or may not.Quote:
O, I was under the impression that units on cliffs could see over tall grass and such.
I would have thought that this would have been a much more useful ability if it blocked LoS from high ground and air units, only allowing LoS into it by ground units. This would give zerg a lot more menace in the mid-late game. Imagine using it to take out those ledge dropped tanks!
I think it does block cliff-top LoS. I believe Karune was talking about that.
In reference to the Colossus, are you sure it has air unit vision? Did they say that somewhere? I mean, i walks on the ground.
I had suggested something like this some time ago. Don't know if they saw my post, or it's coincidence, but i'm happy to see this implemented, and hope it gives some fresh air :p to spells.
If you need an air unit to see inside the cloud, i think it would be interesting in gameplay, as the enemy will try to kill the Overseer and/or get some air unit there himself, which you would try to kill then. Moreover, if there are Hydralisks inside the cloud, it won't be easy to get close with a lonely air unit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Norfindel
Were you the one who had it on the mothership or did you give it to the zerg?
I agree, but it's not like you need to fly the air unti right over the cloud, just within it's vision to give everyone vision. Still some risk would be involved.Quote:
Originally Posted by Norfindel
It'd screw up several uses of the ability. Right now, if you've got lurkers inside one of these things, the caster itself (Overseer) is perfectly capable of providing vision. If the Overseer couldn't provide vision to the units inside it, then you can't use it on units inside it.Quote:
I would have thought that this would have been a much more useful ability if it blocked LoS from high ground and air units, only allowing LoS into it by ground units.
It's been stated several times.Quote:
In reference to the Colossus, are you sure it has air unit vision? Did they say that somewhere? I mean, i walks on the ground.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas
Show me.
At first I was a bit hesitant about the whole "smoke" mechanics, hiding units and all, but this idea really underscores how it can change gameplay for the better. One of Blizzard's better ideas. I hope it plays out as well as it sounds.
umm, dark swarm, anyone? imo, not that different to the defiler's first ability
Colossi can see over cliffs like an air unit. I don't know if this actually gives them vision like an air unit.
"Colossus can have a vision of the upper ground just like the air units, while Reaper can't as a ground unit.
Colossi and Reapers can't climb up a cliff of 2 level at one time."
http://forums.battle.net/thread.html...997&sid=3000#7
And "The Colossus will be able to see on top of cliffs, allowing it to climb up without a 'spotter" (February 2008; the link is dead now)
Well my idea was basically that only ground units on the same "level" could provide line of sight. It would block sight only to air units and units on high ground. The units in this case would provide sight to themselves. Would be a counter to a number of air strats.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas
Anyway it was only a thought. Having abilities like this makes the game more interesting and I like that Blizzard has done it.
I just suggested to use some sort of smoke grenade that creates a smoke area that blocks vision, as if it would be a big doodad.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur
It works differently. In fact, i like the new ability more, because it creates a fight for air vision. If you kill the Overseer and you have air vision there, the ability kicks back, and now the Zerg units are in serious shit, as they won't have any vision, but you do.Quote:
Originally Posted by horror
Also, it will combine very well with the Nydus Worm, as you can unload completely safe if the enemy doesn't have air vision there.
I agree, it is much better and far more balanced ability, Dark Swarm was just way too powerful, where you couldnt do anything but to run from it. But correct me if im wrong, but Dark Swarm also was Double Edge ability like this one, if you had hydras with Dark swarm, and enemy makes melee units, you are really screwed. Also nice discussion here! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Norfindel
True. But for the Terran, that required you to use a specialist unit: Firebats. Which meant that you needed some forethought, as well as the production infrastructure for them.Quote:
but Dark Swarm also was Double Edge ability like this one
The thing about this ability is that what you need is a certain kind of unit: one that can shoot air. There are many choices, from GtA units to actual flying units. And if you bring those, all you've done is open up a new front in the battle: air units. Now the Zerg can counter your air attackers with Corruptors/Mutalisks. This ability creates diversity.
Also, this ability should really help diversify ZvZ play. Overseers in your base, at your choke, will be able to easily help hold off enemy units, thus allowing you to tech somewhat more freely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas
Good to see we can agree. (On this and the LAN issue.)
It's these kind of new mechanics that I'm hoping will bring the RTS back as a genre.
Could you see HTs wasting storms on empty spore clouds?
The dark swarm yes is a "double edged sword" but the Zerg easily have the best melee units in the game.
Cracklings, lurkers, ultralisks. Nobody is beating those under dark swarm.
I dunno, Protoss counter it with Archon/Zeal and seem to do pretty damn well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandonetho
Wait, why are we talking about SC1?
Archons are doing about 10 dmg under Dark Swarm, so nope, only Zealots and they are useless vs Mass cracklings/Ultras/Lurkers.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaharaDrac
Are you guys sure you can give other units LoS? I know thats how it works for cliffs but ive never read about the brush/gas mechanics working like this.
I was under the impression that in order for a marine to shoot something past a brush, he would personally have to move past the brush. So that if you had 10 marines and 5 were inside and 5 were outside, only the 5 inside would be attacking while the 5 outside would be trying to move into the brush.
Either way its not like dark swarm. If you throw this up on a group of marines then it may prevent them from shooting at your lings while they travel but when the zerglings enter the brush they will take the damage.
Than listen up:Quote:
Originally Posted by Medzo
Wrong. If you can see it, you can shoot it. Its that simple. Even if you only had 1 marine on the A side of the brush/smoke and 9 on the B side, all 10 Marines could shoot at the A side, provided they have the range.Quote:
Originally Posted by Medzo
We don't know that for sure. We don't know if the cloud acts as a ring, or a complete cover. If it creates a ring, it'll act exactly like normal linear brush/smoke. If its a complete coverage, than its likely only melee units will be able to deal damage, just like Dark Swarm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Medzo
From the way it sounds, and from looking at the natural LoS blockers on the maps, I would guess it's a ring.Quote:
Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid
I hope it's a cloud personally.
I'm trying to envision what a 'spore ring' would look like. I was always a fan of the visual effects of the Dark Swarm. It looked Zergy. Grant you - even if it is a ring, I have no doubt that Bliz will make it look / work effectively.
Hm, even then i dont think it is like Dark Swarm, Ranged units will be like Blinded in SC1, so they will basically have 'melee' attack. They wont miss with their attacks.Quote:
Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid
They said that only air units get vision of what's inside the cloud, so it will be safe to asume any ground unit inside the cloud will have no vision at all without a spotter, which makes it an interesting ability to use against Siege Tanks and Bunkers.
They said that...?Quote:
Originally Posted by Norfindel
That's... really weird. I think they're just taking the idea that a unit IN the cloud can see in the cloud for granted, from the way they've described it can be used.
Likely mechanically it's a ring, but visually a cloud.Quote:
I hope it's a cloud personally.
I'm trying to envision what a 'spore ring' would look like. I was always a fan of the visual effects of the Dark Swarm. It looked Zergy. Grant you - even if it is a ring, I have no doubt that Bliz will make it look / work effectively.
Show me an actual quote where they say that only air units get vision.Quote:
They said that only air units get vision of what's inside the cloud
Well, that's what says in the 1st page:Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius
I think the last sentence means the Hydras wouldn't be able to see by themselves inside the cloud. Otherwise, why would you need a spotter? You could just walk the Hydras inside the cloud.Quote:
Spore Cloud (50 energy)- Release a cloud of fog, covering an area and blocks line of sight for a period of time (subject to balance). Units that are above the fog can see into and over the fog.
This ability is great at blocking the line of sight of spotter units on cliffs, block line of sight of Marines while your Zerglings run up close to attack range, or even to hide your ranged units like Hydralisks from the enemy while having your own spotter for the Hydras.
I think that would be the most fun, and make the most sense. If the Hydras cannot see thru the cloud, why would them be able to se anything while inside.
Also, it would open a great oportunity to use it over Bunkers, or any immobile unit/building.
There is nothing that says only. You could make the same claim about LOS blockers, but that doesn't stop regular units on the other side from providing appropriate vision.Quote:
Well, that's what says in the 1st page:
What the last tactic is talking about is like using regular LOS blockers. You put your Hydras on one side, but you need a spotter on the other side so that your units can shoot while the other units can't. Only the Hydralisks are in the area of effect in the last example.Quote:
I think the last sentence means the Hydras wouldn't be able to see by themselves inside the cloud. Otherwise, why would you need a spotter? You could just walk the Hydras inside the cloud.
It's not a blind effect, it's an LOS blocker. Units inside will most likely be able to see inside, if not have their LOS reduced slightly. It will work on siege tanks, but bunkers inside will still be able to shoot any enemy units that go inside the cloud.
I think it's a neat ability and it's what I wanted to see from the Zerg. They need more macro spells like this that compliments their large, mobile armies. Coming from the Overseer, this should be easier to cast on tanks than defilers trying to inch up to cast dark swarm.
Will comsat reveal stuff under the cloud? This is gr8 because it can stop early tanks pushing vs sunken lines too, and you can cover up the sunks with banelings in case rines rush them. I think this is a very nice improvement to zerg strategies and I plan on using it very often.
Yup, Scanner Sweep grants omniscient vision at the area you scanned, meaning it has air unit vision.
-Psi
Just to clarify then, casting this on something like a photon cannon actually grants the cannon the advantage of not being seen (unless by a zerg spotter then), but if you cast it just outside the cannon then the cannon itself couldn't see in it? If a building is caught within the spell is that granting a 'spotter' to be able to shoot units inside?
Really, the mechanic is very simple.
A regular LOS blocker works by preventing vision across it for either party unless they:
1: Have an air unit or air unit-equivalent vision across it.
2: Have a ground unit on the other side.
The Overseer mechanic is simply taking a fixed map effect and makes it something you can create. The nature of it isn't different just because you can make them yourself.
Hm, something that would kinda be nifty is if you could hold left-click to specify the cloud's pattern...