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Disappearing Middle Class in America
A friend sent me the story, found it very interesting (and depressing)
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The 22 statistics detailed here prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the middle class is being systematically wiped out of existence in America.
The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer at a staggering rate. Once upon a time, the United States had the largest and most prosperous middle class in the history of the world, but now that is changing at a blinding pace.
So why are we witnessing such fundamental changes? Well, the globalism and "free trade" that our politicians and business leaders insisted would be so good for us have had some rather nasty side effects. It turns out that they didn't tell us that the "global economy" would mean that middle class American workers would eventually have to directly compete for jobs with people on the other side of the world where there is no minimum wage and very few regulations. The big global corporations have greatly benefited by exploiting third world labor pools over the last several decades, but middle class American workers have increasingly found things to be very tough.
Here are the statistics to prove it:
83 percent of all U.S. stocks are in the hands of 1 percent of the people.
61 percent of Americans "always or usually" live paycheck to paycheck, which was up from 49 percent in 2008 and 43 percent in 2007.
66 percent of the income growth between 2001 and 2007 went to the top 1% of all Americans.
36 percent of Americans say that they don't contribute anything to retirement savings.
A staggering 43 percent of Americans have less than $10,000 saved up for retirement.
24 percent of American workers say that they have postponed their planned retirement age in the past year.
Over 1.4 million Americans filed for personal bankruptcy in 2009, which represented a 32 percent increase over 2008.
Only the top 5 percent of U.S. households have earned enough additional income to match the rise in housing costs since 1975.
For the first time in U.S. history, banks own a greater share of residential housing net worth in the United States than all individual Americans put together.
In 1950, the ratio of the average executive's paycheck to the average worker's paycheck was about 30 to 1. Since the year 2000, that ratio has exploded to between 300 to 500 to one.
As of 2007, the bottom 80 percent of American households held about 7% of the liquid financial assets.
The bottom 50 percent of income earners in the United States now collectively own less than 1 percent of the nations wealth.
Average Wall Street bonuses for 2009 were up 17 percent when compared with 2008.
In the United States, the average federal worker now earns 60% MORE than the average worker in the private sector.
The top 1 percent of U.S. households own nearly twice as much of America's corporate wealth as they did just 15 years ago.
In America today, the average time needed to find a job has risen to a record 35.2 weeks.
More than 40 percent of Americans who actually are employed are now working in service jobs, which are often very low paying.
or the first time in U.S. history, more than 40 million Americans are on food stamps, and the U.S. Department of Agriculture projects that number will go up to 43 million Americans in 2011.
This is what American workers now must compete against: in China a garment worker makes approximately 86 cents an hour and in Cambodia a garment worker makes approximately 22 cents an hour.
Approximately 21 percent of all children in the United States are living below the poverty line in 2010 - the highest rate in 20 years.
Despite the financial crisis, the number of millionaires in the United States rose a whopping 16 percent to 7.8 million in 2009.
The top 10 percent of Americans now earn around 50 percent of our national income.
Giant Sucking Sound
The reality is that no matter how smart, how strong, how educated or how hard working American workers are, they just cannot compete with people who are desperate to put in 10 to 12 hour days at less than a dollar an hour on the other side of the world. After all, what corporation in their right mind is going to pay an American worker 10 times more (plus benefits) to do the same job? The world is fundamentally changing. Wealth and power are rapidly becoming concentrated at the top and the big global corporations are making massive amounts of money. Meanwhile, the American middle class is being systematically wiped out of existence as U.S. workers are slowly being merged into the new "global" labor pool.
What do most Americans have to offer in the marketplace other than their labor? Not much. The truth is that most Americans are absolutely dependent on someone else giving them a job. But today, U.S. workers are "less attractive" than ever. Compared to the rest of the world, American workers are extremely expensive, and the government keeps passing more rules and regulations seemingly on a monthly basis that makes it even more difficult to conduct business in the United States.
So corporations are moving operations out of the U.S. at breathtaking speed. Since the U.S. government does not penalize them for doing so, there really is no incentive for them to stay.
What has developed is a situation where the people at the top are doing quite well, while most Americans are finding it increasingly difficult to make it. There are now about six unemployed Americans for every new job opening in the United States, and the number of "chronically unemployed" is absolutely soaring. There simply are not nearly enough jobs for everyone.
Many of those who are able to get jobs are finding that they are making less money than they used to. In fact, an increasingly large percentage of Americans are working at low wage retail and service jobs.
But you can't raise a family on what you make flipping burgers at McDonald's or on what you bring in from greeting customers down at the local Wal-Mart.
The truth is that the middle class in America is dying -- and once it is gone it will be incredibly difficult to rebuild.
Some of this I already knew (the explosion in executive pay vs. employee pay) and some of it wasn't all that surprising (Bush tax cuts primarily benefit the rich? no way!), but perhaps the most worrying statistic was the number of people living paycheck to paycheck. That's just a disaster waiting to happen, especially with so few having any safety net and in an environment where finding a job is nigh impossible.
Perhaps the only silver lining is that all that cheap overseas labor is starting to disappear. If labor costs start to rise in the developed third world countries, corporations are going to have less reason to move there. Since governments seem unwilling to punish them in any other way lest we hurt their bottom line, that seems to be our only ticket out of this mess.
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Re: Disappearing Middle Class in America
And they degrade me for promoting socialist policies. I really hope you're enjoying your wonderful Capitalism, America.
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Re: Disappearing Middle Class in America
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Originally Posted by
DemolitionSquid
And they degrade me for promoting socialist policies. I really hope you're enjoying your wonderful Capitalism, America.
Canada is hardly that socialist. All socialism ever means anymore nowadays is government control of key industries, normally things people consider necessary (medicine). Otherwise, in terms of industry, Canada is just as capitalistic. However, I assume you probably want Canada to be more socialist.
Anyhow, I don't really see any solution to this problem. Looks like the standard of living will have to go down, or the rest of the world has to go up, in which it'll create an equilibrium. It just goes to show that your nation being the richest at the detriment of others will bite you in the rear later on.
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Re: Disappearing Middle Class in America
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Originally Posted by
Kacaier
Canada is hardly that socialist. All socialism ever means anymore nowadays is government control of key industries, normally things people consider necessary (medicine). Otherwise, in terms of industry, Canada is just as capitalistic. However, I assume you probably want Canada to be more socialist.
Anyhow, I don't really see any solution to this problem. Looks like the standard of living will have to go down, or the rest of the world has to go up, in which it'll create an equilibrium. It just goes to show that your nation being the richest at the detriment of others will bite you in the rear later on.
Exactly. America is so afraid of the world socialism, they equate it with communism, and its pathetic. They've been lied to by "the man" for so long, their ignorance is killing them. I gladly pay slightly higher taxes for universal health care, reliable public transportation, good welfare and pensions. Wheras most Americans who take having a minimum wage for granted don't even realize its a socialist policy.
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Re: Disappearing Middle Class in America
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Originally Posted by
DemolitionSquid
And they degrade me for promoting socialist policies. I really hope you're enjoying your wonderful Capitalism, America.
COMMIEunist! i KNEW THE sOVIEET uNION NEVER FELL1we BEAT AYOU TO teH MOON.you cant baet U.S.. BECUZ texas has gun and also FREE SPEECE.UNITED NATIONs of America W1LL WIN WORLD W3!
That's Glen Beck at ages 4-40.
I reserve judgement on the socialism vs. capitalism thing though. It's bizarre to me how there seems to be no such thing universal agreement in economics, and I figure that if economists can figure it out I shouldn't try.
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Re: Disappearing Middle Class in America
I don't think it helps that we've allowed our manufacturing industry to fall to a measly shadow of its former self. Or that banks lobby government to loosen restrictions, then sell derivatives and financial swaps without anything tangible to support them. Like GE Capital. God I hate GE Capital.
I like that in times of economic success with advocate privatization, and in times of economic decline we socialize.
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Re: Disappearing Middle Class in America
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Originally Posted by
Visions of Khas
I don't think it helps that we've allowed our manufacturing industry to fall to a measly shadow of its former self.
THIS. Holy shit, THIS.
Germany and Japan were huge manufactures. The USA wanted nothing to do with WW2, wasn't their problem, its only after Pearl Harbor was attacked they gave a shit and join in. The USA built thousands of factories to create weapons and transports to defeat the Nazi's. It was also the perfect solution to create jobs and an economy to get back on track after the Great Depression. Once WW2 was over, the two former industrial powerhouses were defeated and the USA was left with the largest manufacturing force in the world. This is how the USA got so rich so fast in the 50's, they were the only country with the ability to produce and ship and absurd number of products. Of course, over time, Japan and Germany and other countries started to rebuild their infrastructure, while the USA started to consume more and get greedy, shutting down their massive work force and factories.
And that is how the USA ended up being where they are today. With minimal production and export, and rampant consumption and import. They're hemorrhaging money to other countries, and the money they do save is being held by 5% of the country as the rest suffers.
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Re: Disappearing Middle Class in America
The US is now a service based economy not manufacturing, to be completely honest that is natural economic progression.
Time will tell if this changes, statistics are probably skewed considering recent events, many people are claiming to be poor now so...their definition of 'poor' could be off.
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Re: Disappearing Middle Class in America
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Originally Posted by
Noctis
The US is now a service based economy not manufacturing, to be completely honest that is natural economic progression.
Time will tell if this changes, statistics are probably skewed considering recent events, many people are claiming to be poor now so...their definition of 'poor' could be off.
The problem isn't the transition from a manufacturing based economy to a service based economy. The problem is the money entering and exiting the country because of that transition. For an economy to grow and a country to be come rich, it needs to take money from other countries from exports. If you manufacture a product it can be sent out to other countries, and their money comes into your country. But a lot of services deal in-country only. They get the products they serve to you from another country, ergo your country is losing money. That's why there was that whole "Buy American" fiasco: to keep American's money in America. Large companies outsourcing their manufacturing or services to other countries where its cheaper to hire labor helps save the company money, but in the long run the country they're based in is actually losing money. This is why America is in such deep debt, they've bought more products then they've produced, and outsourced more jobs than they kept in-country.
On the second point: Living paycheck to paycheck and having no money saved up classifies as poor I'd think. It helps no one.
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Re: Disappearing Middle Class in America
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Originally Posted by
DemolitionSquid
And they degrade me for promoting socialist policies. I really hope you're enjoying your wonderful Capitalism, America.
First America isn't a true capitalist country. Second your socialist ways are lame and I highly disagree with you, I am personnally a liberalist which means I believe in liberty and freedom for both business and the people. I am guessing you live near Ottawa, because of your views.
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Exactly. America is so afraid of the world socialism, they equate it with communism, and its pathetic. They've been lied to by "the man" for so long, their ignorance is killing them. I gladly pay slightly higher taxes for universal health care, reliable public transportation, good welfare and pensions. Wheras most Americans who take having a minimum wage for granted don't even realize its a socialist policy.
Do you even know of the damage caused by the Socialist parties in Canada? You the kind of person who wished the NDP to run everything (into the ground). At first I was passionate about the NDP, the unions were going to help us with everything. I was wrong, they added more taxes and forced us to take days off so we wouldn't get our Health Insurance because then they would have to give everyone it. Slightly higher, I think you are very mistaken. With this new HST in Ontario and including all other taxes they are paying almost 50% of there wages to the government. So yes :D you are working for the Government. Minimum wage isn't a socialist policy it's a liberal one, it makes everyones lowest wage equal. Also to add to that wheres my public transportation? Wheres my good welfare? There are only available for those who are privileged, but it is put out as fair but it's not.
It's not only about yourself with socialism, it's the huge amount of Government control, in the so called service of the people. What the social elite? I should spend my money ($5) on 5 people equally not give $4.50 to one person or Government official.
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Re: Disappearing Middle Class in America
I really don't want to talk politics but I am part of the middle class families, and I do not think WE are going anywhere soon. There will always be a middle class, but it won't be in terms of how it is now, things will adapt as people change.
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Re: Disappearing Middle Class in America
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Re: Disappearing Middle Class in America
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Originally Posted by
mikill
First America isn't a true capitalist country. Second your socialist ways are lame and I highly disagree with you, I am personally a liberalist which means I believe in liberty and freedom for both business and the people. I am guessing you live near Ottawa, because of your views.
1. I live in Calgary Alberta.
2. I know what a liberalist is, and I have no problem with freedom. I just think there's something seriously wrong when the "supposed" richest country in the world has ghettos. Socialist policies are to help elevate the standard of living for all people, so every child born has the same opportunity to excel. Instead of what we have now, where the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, and children born to poor parents are at a disadvantage to children born of rich parents, through no fault of their own.
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Originally Posted by
mikill
Do you even know of the damage caused by the Socialist parties in Canada? You the kind of person who wished the NDP to run everything (into the ground). At first I was passionate about the NDP, the unions were going to help us with everything. I was wrong, they added more taxes and forced us to take days off so we wouldn't get our Health Insurance because then they would have to give everyone it. Slightly higher, I think you are very mistaken. With this new HST in Ontario and including all other taxes they are paying almost 50% of there wages to the government. So yes :D you are working for the Government. Minimum wage isn't a socialist policy it's a liberal one, it makes everyones lowest wage equal. Also to add to that wheres my public transportation? Wheres my good welfare? There are only available for those who are privileged, but it is put out as fair but it's not.
It's not only about yourself with socialism, it's the huge amount of Government control, in the so called service of the people. What the social elite? I should spend my money ($5) on 5 people equally not give $4.50 to one person or Government official.
I never said Canada was a perfect shining example of Socialism. But we're still a hell of a sight better off than the Americans. I don't know where in Canada you live, you never said. But again, I live in Calgary, and I have have access to all those things I mentioned, and I am certifiably middle-class.
I'm not saying we need to convert to a pure socialist society. But its clear that the standard of living, or at least the standard of fiscal education and responsibility in the USA, is not nearly high enough.
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Re: Disappearing Middle Class in America
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Originally Posted by
mikill
I am guessing you live near Ottawa, because of your views.
Ottawa resident here. That claim is really unfounded.
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It's not only about yourself with socialism, it's the huge amount of Government control, in the so called service of the people. What the social elite? I should spend my money ($5) on 5 people equally not give $4.50 to one person or Government official.
Yes, there are abuses (ie: the governor general is a complete waste of money) but honestly, our living conditions are pretty good. There are always gonna be abuses anyways.
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Re: Disappearing Middle Class in America
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Originally Posted by
DemolitionSquid
THIS. Holy shit, THIS.
Germany and Japan were huge manufactures. The USA wanted nothing to do with WW2, wasn't their problem, its only after Pearl Harbor was attacked they gave a shit and join in. The USA built thousands of factories to create weapons and transports to defeat the Nazi's. It was also the perfect solution to create jobs and an economy to get back on track after the Great Depression. Once WW2 was over, the two former industrial powerhouses were defeated and the USA was left with the largest manufacturing force in the world. This is how the USA got so rich so fast in the 50's, they were the only country with the ability to produce and ship and absurd number of products. Of course, over time, Japan and Germany and other countries started to rebuild their infrastructure, while the USA started to consume more and get greedy, shutting down their massive work force and factories.
And that is how the USA ended up being where they are today. With minimal production and export, and rampant consumption and import. They're hemorrhaging money to other countries, and the money they do save is being held by 5% of the country as the rest suffers.
Ok Demo, prior to WWII, the US was, in many ways, a turtling, isolationists country, I'll give you that. But we did make some contributions before Pearl Harbor. Much of the credit for these go to a very forward-thinking FDR and his administration.
The Destroyers for Bases Agreement of 1940.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destroy...ases_Agreement
The Lend-Lease Act of 1941.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lend_Lease
And...
The Japanese Oil Embargo of 1941.
In July of 1941, shortly after Japan invaded Indochina, all Japanese assets in the US were frozen and in August of that same year, the US established an embargo on all oil and gasoline exports to Japan, which amounted to about 80% of its total imported oil.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Events_...n_Pearl_Harbor
My comments on the overall thread, thus far...
I personally don't believe Socialism or Capitalism or any other "ism" are 100% full-proof systems. A socialist ideology can trample it's citizens just as easily as a capitalistic one can.
I do think that United States is headed in the absolutely wrong direction. Social Security is a bust. Medicare and Medicaid are busts. The auto bailouts and stimulus packages were a waste of time. And our forthcoming Universal Healthcare system is gonna be just awesome? :rolleyes:. Yeah right! All of these programs are very socialistic in nature.
I think a major problem with our society as it stands right now is not the "ism" we each live under.
It's the fundamental issue of supply and demand. Not enough supply...way too much demand. There are too many people...living way too long...all crammed on to one tiny little ball of dirt. No "ism", social or otherwise, is going to help thwart this. It's what I would call the human race's inevitable saturation point. There will come a time when this planet simply wont be able to support us all.
The problem isn't a question of your country's fundamental economic and political ideology, no. The real issue is population. Always has been. Always will be. And now more than ever. Fix population, and the other issues will work themselves out. The real trick though is figuring out how to fix it. Anyone have any ideas...that don't involve mass genocide?
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Re: Disappearing Middle Class in America
Capitalism has a flaw. That flaw is called greed, and this system has been exploited since a long time ago by the ones favored by it. It could have worked with good regulation systems, but none was provided, and corrupt governments (that means: all governments) favored the concentration of wealth.
On a scientific approach, capitalism has positive feedback. It may sound like a good thing if you don't know what it is, but it isn't good at all, and clearly defines an unstable system that goes to saturation. Put simply, it means that having money increases your ability to make money. Of course, money isn't an infinite resource, so the ones with the most money will always tend to have more money, while that money isn't available to the rest of the people.
By the way, America is a continent. But i suppose that people living in the Unites States of America wouldn't want to be called unitedstatesofamericans, anyways :p
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Re: Disappearing Middle Class in America
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Originally Posted by
Norfindel
By the way, America is a continent. But i suppose that people living in the Unites States of America wouldn't want to be called unitedstatesofamericans, anyways :p
*Puts on trucker hat*
Whatcha say, boy? This here is 'murica, we dont listen to no silly jibber-jabbering foreignerrs.
*cocks shotgun*
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The problem isn't a question of your country's fundamental economic and political ideology, no. The real issue is population. Always has been. Always will be. And now more than ever. Fix population, and the other issues will work themselves out. The real trick though is figuring out how to fix it. Anyone have any ideas...that don't involve mass genocide?
There are none, short of the kinds of things that keeps the Tinfoil Hat Brigade awake at night. The next best option would be to recognize that the 'have nots' need food, shelter and health care more than the 'haves' need a second house or yacht, and rectify that situation.
If the above causes an involuntary reaction about your money being stolen to support welfare queens, then
A)Silly generalizations are just that
B)Unless you're part of the top 1% you aren't being counted anyways
C)It's a far better way to affect positive societal changes than waiting for the wealth to "trickle down," especially since they're just hoarding it now
D)Eventually the situation will get so bad that the 'have nots' are going to try and force the solution, and it's not going to be pretty. How many mercenaries can you hire to protect your stuff?
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Re: Disappearing Middle Class in America
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Originally Posted by
lupino
*puts on trucker hat*
whatcha say, boy? This here is 'murica, we dont listen to no silly jibber-jabbering foreignerrs.
*cocks shotgun*
rofl! :D
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Re: Disappearing Middle Class in America
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Originally Posted by
DemolitionSquid
And they degrade me for promoting socialist policies. I really hope you're enjoying your wonderful Capitalism, America.
This is not capitalism. Also keep in mind that the poorest people in America consume more calories per day than any other "class" in the history of the world.
It's the non capitalist economic ideas that have helped to destroy US middle class, things like tariffs, unions, minimum wage, subsidies and all the other "special interests".
EDIT: Oops...."Thou shalt not discuss politics on the internet".............
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Re: Disappearing Middle Class in America
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83 percent of all U.S. stocks are in the hands of 1 percent of the people.
Hey we can thank the GFC for a little payback :D I am just not interested in politics at all. No ideology is perfect and so you can go tic for tac all day long all the while the world is moving on around you. Life is too short for politics (and I understand the irony in that since life is the longest thing you will ever do).
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Re: Disappearing Middle Class in America
Dejai, those number are not politics. Those numbers are a reflection of how fucked-up the system is.
It's sad. Humanity needs people with different knowledge and specializations to continue to grow. Nobody can possibly know all that is necessary for humanity to prosper. We are a species that needs to work in groups to prosper. Greed and concentration of wealth works against that.
I hope that people finally understands that at some time, but power and money can be blinding. At the end, even the people at the pinnacle of power could have lived in a better world if they would be fairer instead of so needlesly greedy.
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Re: Disappearing Middle Class in America
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Originally Posted by
Norfindel
Dejai, those number are not politics. Those numbers are a reflection of how fucked-up the system is.
It's sad. Humanity needs people with different knowledge and specializations to continue to grow. Nobody can possibly know all that is necessary for humanity to prosper. We are a species that needs to work in groups to prosper. Greed and concentration of wealth works against that.
I hope that people finally understands that at some time, but power and money can be blinding. At the end, even the people at the pinnacle of power could have lived in a better world if they would be fairer instead of so needlesly greedy.
Well said good sir. We have the ability to surpass our evolution and focus on the survival of all, yet we continue to just be animals and live with survival of the fittest. Medicine was just a first step on a road towards everyone surviving.
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Re: Disappearing Middle Class in America
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Originally Posted by
Norfindel
Dejai, those number are not politics. Those numbers are a reflection of how fucked-up the system is.
It's sad. Humanity needs people with different knowledge and specializations to continue to grow. Nobody can possibly know all that is necessary for humanity to prosper. We are a species that needs to work in groups to prosper. Greed and concentration of wealth works against that.
I hope that people finally understands that at some time, but power and money can be blinding. At the end, even the people at the pinnacle of power could have lived in a better world if they would be fairer instead of so needlesly greedy.
While I agree with you completely...the overarching issue still circles back to limited resources and overpopulation. The reason there are rich people at all is because they have a strangle-hold on most avenues of distribution, manufacturing, infrastructure, technology and political leverage. They have all this power primarily because our Capitalist system in many ways demands it. Money + power = the hunger for more of both.
Demo is right in the above post. We are the first species on this planet that has the opportunity to break out of the survival-of-the-fittest, look-out for-numero-uno-first mentality. But until we can solve the resources issue, Eutopia and 99.9% equality between every man, woman and child on Earth will be almost impossible.
The other alternative, as you said, would be the have-nots taking matters into their own hands. And as you pointed out, this would be a terrifying answer. As we all know, history has taught us that this rarely, if ever, has yielded positive results. One group of tyrants are simply exchanged for another group of tyrants.
Bumming a StarCraft reference...the corrupt and greedy Confederacy lead to the uber corrupt, uber greedy Dominion.
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Re: Disappearing Middle Class in America
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Originally Posted by
DemolitionSquid
1. I live in Calgary Alberta.
2. I know what a liberalist is, and I have no problem with freedom. I just think there's something seriously wrong when the "supposed" richest country in the world has ghettos. Socialist policies are to help elevate the standard of living for all people, so every child born has the same opportunity to excel. Instead of what we have now, where the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, and children born to poor parents are at a disadvantage to children born of rich parents, through no fault of their own.
Are you referring to new left or old left?
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Ottawa resident here. That claim is really unfounded.
Sorry, I was just thinking about the incident a couple of months back and assumed that.
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I don't know where in Canada you live, you never said. But again, I live in Calgary, and I have have access to all those things I mentioned, and I am certifiably middle-class.
I live in a mostly farming community, in the middle of no where near the US Border. "Because I'm proud to be near America where at least I know I am free and I won't forget the Men across the border who died who gave that right to me!" LOL but it is so true.
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Well said good sir. We have the ability to surpass our evolution and focus on the survival of all, yet we continue to just be animals and live with survival of the fittest. Medicine was just a first step on a road towards everyone surviving.
So you believe that everything would be better with socialism. I let me ask you something, think of this as a factor in the ideology you believe in. How much is a Wisers Very Old 18 Years Whiskey cost you at a the place where you buy your alcohol, Demo?
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Re: Disappearing Middle Class in America
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Originally Posted by
mikill
Are you referring to new left or old left?
How vague of you.
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Originally Posted by
mikill
I live in a mostly farming community, in the middle of no where near the US Border. "Because I'm proud to be near America where at least I know I am free and I won't forget the Men across the border who died who gave that right to me!" LOL but it is so true.
In what way did America give me the right to freedom? When they invaded in 1812 and we kicked their asses, or when we got freedom from the British on our own accord without a violent revolution, or when put into law our socialized health care while you still pay exorbitant amounts for basic pharmaceuticals?
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Originally Posted by
mikill
So you believe that everything would be better with socialism. I let me ask you something, think of this as a factor in the ideology you believe in. How much is a Wisers Very Old 18 Years Whiskey cost you at a the place where you buy your alcohol, Demo?
I believe that you look at Russia and China and North Korea and go "lulz." When really, none are or were ever socialist. Socialism is about equality and community. Not lying to your population and hording the wealth and food you steal from the farmers to feed the lawmakers. Quite simply, socialism has never failed because its never actually been implemented.
I support socialist policies. I support raising the standard of living so all people start with their basic material needs like food, shelter, clothing, health care and education. I support sharing of resources so that every person can pursue their higher goals without worrying if they'll be able to eat next week. I'm not suggesting that there cannot be rich people, who worked hard to have better, non essential things like a pool in their backyard. I'm suggesting we have the ability to abolish poor people who have nothing, and are simply unwilling to take that leap because its ingrained into our heads that if one person has it all, someone else must therefore have nothing and that's just how it always has to be. Everyone believes that there are only win/lose situations and no alternatives, and they are absolutely wrong.
To use your alcohol analogy, I have no idea how much it cost because I do not drink it. I don't need it. There's nothing saying a person who loves making alcohol and people who love drinking it couldn't exist in a socialist society, and that a socialist society cannot have an economy. It just means that there are standards in place to make sure everyone has a chance to produce or buy Whiskey because they don't have to spend their money on essentials, like real food. They can experience life and enjoy it instead of merely living.
It's also entirely possible I've just been jaded by Star Trek. No famine, no cold. Where a person can still pursue their own life dreams if they put the effort into it. We don't need replicators. We just need a willingness to share.
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Re: Disappearing Middle Class in America
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Originally Posted by
DemolitionSquid
How vague of you.
But so true. If you believe in socialism you usually believe in both. I understand the ideology in new left however I will understand the ideology of old left.
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In what way did America give me the right to freedom? When they invaded in 1812 and we kicked their asses, or when we got freedom from the British on our own accord without a violent revolution, or when put into law our socialized health care while you still pay exorbitant amounts for basic pharmaceuticals?
Well my great great grandfather's family escaped to freedom by coming to the USA and I believe the war of 1812 was more of a draw, as both capitals were destroyed.
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I believe that you look at Russia and China and North Korea and go "lulz." When really, none are or were ever socialist. Socialism is about equality and community. Not lying to your population and hording the wealth and food you steal from the farmers to feed the lawmakers. Quite simply, socialism has never failed because its never actually been implemented.
So new left and you would like more crown corporations?
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I support socialist policies. I support raising the standard of living so all people start with their basic material needs like food, shelter, clothing, health care and education. I support sharing of resources so that every person can pursue their higher goals without worrying if they'll be able to eat next week. I'm not suggesting that there cannot be rich people, who worked hard to have better, non essential things like a pool in their backyard. I'm suggesting we have the ability to abolish poor people who have nothing, and are simply unwilling to take that leap because its ingrained into our heads that if one person has it all, someone else must therefore have nothing and that's just how it always has to be. Everyone believes that there are only win/lose situations and no alternatives, and they are absolutely wrong.
Poor people is more of a diease than anything. Let me rephase this. Poor people don't have an attitude to not work. It is usually a disorder. But the problem is it costs so much money to take them off the streets that the government is more focused on the socially handicapped. Like people with downs (I don't think thats how it's spelt) syndrome. What even worst is the fact is the people that have these disorders don't have to pay as much as everyone in socialism.
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To use your alcohol analogy, I have no idea how much it cost because I do not drink it. I don't need it. There's nothing saying a person who loves making alcohol and people who love drinking it couldn't exist in a socialist society, and that a socialist society cannot have an economy. It just means that there are standards in place to make sure everyone has a chance to produce or buy Whiskey because they don't have to spend their money on essentials, like real food. They can experience life and enjoy it instead of merely living.
It's also entirely possible I've just been jaded by Star Trek. No famine, no cold. Where a person can still pursue their own life dreams if they put the effort into it. We don't need replicators. We just need a willingness to share.
What the heck with Star Trek? Ok you must drink some form of alcohol right? And it must cost you something, right? I just want to explain to you something.
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Re: Disappearing Middle Class in America
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Originally Posted by
mikill
But so true. If you believe in socialism you usually believe in both. I understand the ideology in new left however I will understand the ideology of old left.
I believe in what I believe. I'm not going to align myself with one side or the other when neither satisfies my position in full.
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Originally Posted by
mikill
Well my great great grandfather's family escaped to freedom by coming to the USA and I believe the war of 1812 was more of a draw, as both capitals were destroyed.
What do you mean by escaped? Escaped what exactly? The British rule over Canada that hurt nobody and still doesn't? Or are you saying he defected to the Americans during the war?
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Originally Posted by
mikill
So new left and you would like more crown corporations?
If by "crown corporations" you mean I believe the government should have more control over the base industries like food and shelter so everyone has their basic material needs met in equality, then yes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mikill
Poor people is more of a disease than anything. Let me rephrase this. Poor people don't have an attitude to not work. It is usually a disorder. But the problem is it costs so much money to take them off the streets that the government is more focused on the socially handicapped. Like people with Down Syndrome. What even worst is the fact is the people that have these disorders don't have to pay as much as everyone in socialism.
I'm sure I want to discuss ethics with a person who puts the poor in the same category as those born with disabilities. I don't want to go so far as to say you're suggesting we purge our disabled and poor in a cleansing genocide...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mikill
What the heck with Star Trek? Ok you must drink some form of alcohol right? And it must cost you something, right? I just want to explain to you something.
Yes I drink. But what could you possibly explain to me out of that? I could still get alcohol for a reasonable price in a society with nothing but simply the better social foundation I advocate.
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Re: Disappearing Middle Class in America
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Originally Posted by
DemolitionSquid
What do you mean by escaped? Escaped what exactly? The British rule over Canada that hurt nobody and still doesn't? Or are you saying he defected to the Americans during the war?
No they came came to America to escape prosecution. That had nothing to do with the war of 1812. I said it in one sentence to type less.
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If by "crown corporations" you mean I believe the government should have more control over the base industries like food and shelter so everyone has their basic material needs met in equality, then yes.
Do you know what a crown corporation is? It's a state controlled monopoly company. See in alberta there are very few of these, in Ontario there are a lot. Just to name a few: LCBO (alcohol control), OLG (lottery), Hydro One (electricity) and CBC (TV). With these companies you don't get the fair deal, you pay more than you should because of the monopoly. I don't even watch CBC because of the crap the spread and they are so bias.
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I'm sure I want to discuss ethics with a person who puts the poor in the same category as those born with disabilities. I don't want to go so far as to say you're suggesting we purge our disabled and poor in a cleansing genocide...
What? No, your thinking of the Bosnian war.
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Yes I drink. But what could you possibly explain to me out of that? I could still get alcohol for a reasonable price in a society with nothing but simply the better social foundation I advocate.
A crown corporation jacks the price up, doubling it in some cases. A socialist Government would do the same only worse. I'll prove it to you by showing you an example just pick a brand, any brand. I'll compare a state run monopoly over Alberta's Privatized alcohol system.
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Re: Disappearing Middle Class in America
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Originally Posted by
mikill
No they came came to America to escape prosecution. That had nothing to do with the war of 1812. I said it in one sentence to type less.
Why, and how, was your family being prosecuted?
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Originally Posted by
mikill
Do you know what a crown corporation is? It's a state controlled monopoly company. See in alberta there are very few of these, in Ontario there are a lot. Just to name a few: LCBO (alcohol control), OLG (lottery), Hydro One (electricity) and CBC (TV). With these companies you don't get the fair deal, you pay more than you should because of the monopoly. I don't even watch CBC because of the crap the spread and they are so bias.
Oh, you meant the extreme. Did I ever mention the extreme? I don't think so.
I'm just saying its possible for the government to ensure BASE NECESSITIES while an economy of extras still exists. For example, the government would produce cheap standardized meals through taxes, but those who made more would still buy from restaurants and independent supermarkets and enjoy "luxury." I don't support monopoly, monopoly leads to corruption and abuse. But I also don't support starving children.
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Originally Posted by
mikill
What? No, your thinking of the Bosnian war.
Am I?
There are multiple ways to solve the problem of poverty. Doing nothing isn't one of them. Continuing on the same path of economic and class disparity isn't one of them. That's been proven countless times through history. It always ends in revolt and violence, and we just keep making the same mistakes.
All men are created equal, but some or more equal than other. And its simply not the best way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mikill
A crown corporation jacks the price up, doubling it in some cases. A socialist Government would do the same only worse. I'll prove it to you by showing you an example just pick a brand, any brand. I'll compare a state run monopoly over Alberta's Privatized alcohol system.
As I said, I don't support monopolies, and I don't support your uneducated idea of what of pure socialism is. I merely support more social policies to raise the base standard of living of all citizens so no one is living in a slum eating out of trashcans.
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Re: Disappearing Middle Class in America
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Originally Posted by
DemolitionSquid
Why, and how, was your family being prosecuted?
I am not quite sure my parents and grandparents said someone about being the 9the 6-9th (i can't remember) generation in Canada and there where 4 additional generations in the USA. All I know is that they didn't like something they had to escape the country and moved to the USA.
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Oh, you meant the extreme. Did I ever mention the extreme? I don't think so.
I'm just saying its possible for the government to ensure BASE NECESSITIES while an economy of extras still exists. For example, the government would produce cheap standardized meals through taxes, but those who made more would still buy from restaurants and independent supermarkets and enjoy "luxury." I don't support monopoly, monopoly leads to corruption and abuse. But I also don't support starving children.
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Am I?
There are multiple ways to solve the problem of poverty. Doing nothing isn't one of them. Continuing on the same path of economic and class disparity isn't one of them. That's been proven countless times through history. It always ends in revolt and violence, and we just keep making the same mistakes.
All men are created equal, but some or more equal than other. And its simply not the best way.
So you believe in inequality? Ethnic cleansing is bad and is no joke.
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As I said, I don't support monopolies, and I don't support your uneducated idea of what of pure socialism is. I merely support more social policies to raise the base standard of living of all citizens so no one is living in a slum eating out of trashcans.
It is funny how your living in a conservative area, but you have the opposite views. Do you work for the oil companies? Your free to believe in socialistic ideas, just like I am free to believe in change from a monarchy to a republic for Canada. Also do believe a man or women has the right to chose to receive help for the government or not (should it be forced apon them)?
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Re: Disappearing Middle Class in America
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mikill
I am not quite sure my parents and grandparents said someone about being the 9the 6-9th (i can't remember) generation in Canada and there where 4 additional generations in the USA. All I know is that they didn't like something they had to escape the country and moved to the USA.
Then that doesn't really help our arguments.
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Originally Posted by
mikill
So you believe in inequality? Ethnic cleansing is bad and is no joke.
You misunderstood. I believe that what we have right now is inequality. That quote is from George Orwell's "Animal Farm" speaks the truth about how life is right now. I believe we can change it, and support equality. I'm apparently one of few who do.
As an aside, anything can be funny. First rule of comedy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mikill
It is funny how your living in a conservative area, but you have the opposite views. Do you work for the oil companies? Your free to believe in socialistic ideas, just like I am free to believe in change from a monarchy to a republic for Canada. Also do believe a man or women has the right to chose to receive help for the government or not (should it be forced upon them)?
I was born in Ontario, my mother is from Manitoba and is a medical lab tech for the city, and my father is from New Brunswick and is an oil surveyor. I lived in Ontario and BC in my youth, and have lived in Calgary for 13 years. I'm not sure what has influenced my social views the most, but they've all lead me to know something is seriously wrong with how isolated and selfish we've become.
As for the right to choose, I support it. We have both socialized health care, with low cost and long wait times, and private care and procedures with higher cost and instant gratification. I believe this is the best way to go forth, and I just think we'd be better off with more choices like that in more industries.
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Re: Disappearing Middle Class in America
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Originally Posted by
DemolitionSquid
Then that doesn't really help our arguments.
Sorry I don't know much about it. I am french however.
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You misunderstood. I believe that what we have right now is inequality. That quote is from George Orwell's "Animal Farm" speaks the truth about how life is right now. I believe we can change it, and support equality. I'm apparently one of few who do.
As an aside, anything can be funny. First rule of comedy.
I don't think thats funny. Was the holocaust funny for the Jews? I don't think so.
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I was born in Ontario, my mother is from Manitoba and is a medical lab tech for the city, and my father is from New Brunswick and is an oil surveyor. I lived in Ontario and BC in my youth, and have lived in Calgary for 13 years. I'm not sure what has influenced my social views the most, but they've all lead me to know something is seriously wrong with how isolated and selfish we've become.
As for the right to choose, I support it. We have both socialized health care, with low cost and long wait times, and private care and procedures with higher cost and instant gratification. I believe this is the best way to go forth, and I just think we'd be better off with more choices like that in more industries.
I doubt we have become selfish as you think. It may be the area you live in. In smaller communities it's clear that everyone knows each other. In big cities like Calgary very few people (if at all) know everyone. You may have more in Alberta but here in Ontario there are no Private hospitials only the public hospitials. OHIP does cover much just a clinic check-ups and some other things. You have to pay for supplements, hospitial care, and surgeries. Plus Alberta has no PST!!! The government makes so much from American Oil it does need PST.
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Re: Disappearing Middle Class in America
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DemolitionSquid
All men are created equal, but some or more equal than other. And its simply not the best way.
Equality really can't be forced. Sure we can make laws, we can redistribute wealth, we can take from the super rich and give to the super poor, we can enact hundreds of social programs to help the less fortunate, but at the end of the day, inequality, in some from or another, will always rear its ugly head.
If it's not about rich and poor, it will be about something else. Race, religion, political ideology, intelligence, physical ability, attractiveness, popularity...take your pick. True equality for everyone is a wonderful dream. But still a dream.
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Re: Disappearing Middle Class in America
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mikill
I don't think that's funny. Was the holocaust funny for the Jews? I don't think so.
At some point you have to look at all the shit you've gone through and laugh, else it will eat you up inside. We've been making fun of Hitler since 1940.
But thats another topic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mikill
I doubt we have become selfish as you think. It may be the area you live in. In smaller communities it's clear that everyone knows each other. In big cities like Calgary very few people (if at all) know everyone. You may have more in Alberta but here in Ontario there are no Private hospitials only the public hospitials. OHIP does cover much just a clinic check-ups and some other things. You have to pay for supplements, hospitial care, and surgeries. Plus Alberta has no PST!!! The government makes so much from American Oil it does need PST.
I really think you're misunderstanding.
I KNOW that's how it is RIGHT NOW. Its what I want to CHANGE. As I said before, Canada is NOT a shining example of how it should be, we have our flaws. BUT we still have socialized policies the USA doesn't that have helped our standard of living. Its why we're considered the 4th best country to live in bu the UN, instead of the 13th.
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Originally Posted by
//MavericK\\
Equality really can't be forced. Sure we can make laws, we can redistribute wealth, we can take from the super rich and give to the super poor, we can enact hundreds of social programs to help the less fortunate, but at the end of the day, inequality, in some from or another, will always rear its ugly head.
If it's not about rich and poor, it will be about something else. Race, religion, political ideology, intelligence, physical ability, attractiveness, popularity...take your pick. True equality for everyone is a wonderful dream. But still a dream.
I know this. But its hypocritical for us to tell our children to strive for a better tomorrow, and not try to start that change with something so simple and fundamental to everyone's well being. I know there will always be those on top and those on bottom. I have never denied this. All I have ever said is we have the ability to raise the floor.
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Re: Disappearing Middle Class in America
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Originally Posted by
DemolitionSquid
At some point you have to look at all the shit you've gone through and laugh, else it will eat you up inside. We've been making fun of Hitler since 1940.
But thats another topic.
True but I don't think everything that happened was funny.
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I really think you're misunderstanding.
I KNOW that's how it is RIGHT NOW. Its what I want to CHANGE. As I said before, Canada is NOT a shining example of how it should be, we have our flaws. BUT we still have socialized policies the USA doesn't that have helped our standard of living. Its why we're considered the 4th best country to live in bu the UN, instead of the 13th.
No I think you misunderstood. I was talking about less taxes, you should come to ontario if you like these policies see how much better it is. Were 4th? Our education is pretty spiteful. How has the policies help us other than unions, health care and minimum wage?
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Re: Disappearing Middle Class in America
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Originally Posted by
mikill
No I think you misunderstood. I was talking about less taxes, you should come to Ontario if you like these policies see how much better it is. Were 4th? Our education is pretty spiteful. How has the policies help us other than unions, health care and minimum wage?
Most of my family lives in Ontario, and I was born there. My family certainly doesn't speak as if its as bad as you say it is.
And our education is light years ahead of what American children get. At least we learn where the people we're bombing actually are on a map.
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Re: Disappearing Middle Class in America
Well, I'll tell you Alberta is much better than Ontario because I have been there. Plus I have an Uncle who lives in Banff. Are you covered under OHIP because you were born here?
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Re: Disappearing Middle Class in America
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mikill
Well, I'll tell you Alberta is much better than Ontario because I have been there. Plus I have an Uncle who lives in Banff. Are you covered under OHIP because you were born here?
Not sure about the coverage.
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Re: Disappearing Middle Class in America
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Originally Posted by
DemolitionSquid
Not sure about the coverage.
You should check because they are all different.
Alberta:
•Full coverage for health services that are medically necessary and administered by a physician.
•Partial coverage for certain dental services.
•Partial coverage for services from chiropractors, podiatrists and optometrists
Ontario:
•General Health Check-ups
•Any Life threatening illiness or injury (partially)
Excluded:
•Ambulance services.
•Routine eye examinations are no longer covered by OHIP for people aged 19-64; those under 18 and 65 and older are still covered for an eye examination once every 12 months.
•Some physiotherapy may be partially covered or not at all.
•Regular dental examinations; only some dental surgery that is done in a hospital will be covered.
•Podiatrists are only partially covered by OHIP.
•Chiropractors.
•Necessary emergency medical treatment obtained outside of Canada is only covered on a very limited basis; it is highly recommended to have travel insurance coverage if traveling outside of Canada.
•Prescriptions
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Re: Disappearing Middle Class in America
As I said, it could better.
