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Banshees are awesomely useful and there is nothing that does their job as well. They are irreplaceable. You just have to learn how to use them.
Reapers, too, serve their purpose. Yes, they're most useful in the early game but that's fine. They still served their purpose if you can do it right. You can probably even end the game if you bunker or Reaper effectively with a backup.
(PS: If I'm trolling, what is it exactly that you do here?)
I provide an alternate viewpoint with the aim of promoting discussion of controversial topics.Quote:
Originally Posted by TychusFindlay
orly?
Most of your posts are similar to this.Quote:
Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid
You're just a troll that can dish it but can't take it. Alas, out of respect for the moderators and posters, I will end this conversation. I've made my point.
You made the point that I take the liberty to point out someone is a moron after I crush them with logic?Quote:
Originally Posted by TychusFindlay
Good job.
blizzard has a rep. for taking 1 thing unplayable from the previous game and making it playable in their expansions. they did it with the sc 1 dark templar, they did it with the war3 dragon hawk, they did it with d2 assassin. there more certainty than doubt that they might do it again.
first, i think they'll eventually bring back the dark archon because they just left it out to keep the unit count down. it doesn't matter what it used to do, they'll make it do what they need it to do. it's a unit that can be used later should they need a caster.
i think that the zerg leviathan might make it from the editer to multiplayer. it's something the the other races have that zerg does not. it could be their battlecrusier or their mothership. a air unit that drops hatchery larva below it, a air unit that counters corruptors air-to-air by attacking with scourges like the broodlord's method. w/e the purpose, it has possibility.
i think if enough people keep pushing, the lurker will be back. i never believed the baneling could replace the lurker efficiently. you can make a baneling minefield, but leaving 2 lurkers in your base is better. you can build sunken colony defense, but leaving 2 lurkers in your base is better. if the lurker comes back they'll most likely change it. in a sense it might be new then.
You haven't crushed anything with logic squid. You just state your thoughts, and don't realize they are opinions (false ones in this case) thinking they are fact. Don't get ahead of yourself...Quote:
Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid
I'll go straight to what Ramiz is saying, since he's trying to have a discussion...
@Ramiz:
But there are so many cases of air dominance battles in BW ZvP... and in ZvT, well it's like in SC2 (next paragraph)Quote:
TL;DR the whole point of this statement is that now, you can force Zerg to make Anti-Air, while in SC1, Zerg was forcing you NOT to make Air, or at least, that is how I see it, since they will always have Scourges, which are really effective at what they do and not really expensive.
I don't see many games ending with banshees and void rays, and if you do, then you'll be seeing less and less of them as people learn to understand the game better. Usually banshees or void rays are only used a transition or a specific response. Needless to say the scout was broken in BW, but otherwise that's the same general purpose as the wraith.
I'm not saying the wraith is as strong as the banshee and the voidray in AtG. It's true that these unit's strong AtG makes them viable and dangerous even in small numbers, but this efficiency has nothing to do with the absence of scourge...
So I'm saying two things:
-air units were VERY frequent in BW: I'm disagreeing with squid's initial statement "air is horrible in BW"
-whatever weakness BW air had (everything needs a weakness!) has nothing to do with scourge. They are just an integral part of the game, and there are many ways to handle them. The most obvious one being corsairs of course.
I'll also add that the SC2 air is much more beginner friendly than in BW because it requires far less micro.
Therefor it's possible that scourge would fare better against a D- player than it would against anything above C level. That doesn't make it broken! But that might explain part of this disagreement (fyi I wasn't a great BW player, definitely not higher than C-/C level, but I NEVER had the impression that scourge broke anything).
I hope that clarifies this part. What I'm saying is that it isn't because of scourge that SC:BW air does less AtG damage..... but that nevertheless, everything balances out in BW since we see so much air usage. Perhaps in a different way than we see it in SC2, but it's a different game.Quote:
What do you mean by the last sentence?Quote:
Yup yup, air is more dynamic now indeed. And the scourge in all this?
For the Terran specifically I'd like to see 2 units that can combine them self's and become a bigger and more powerful one.
I'd also like to see megatron introduced into MP as a single unit also, made from various buildings.
I'd like to see the lurker back for the zerg and this time with great model and graphics, having upgrades to attack more ways and being just generally awesome.
For the Protoss I'd like to see the mothership totally reworked with new cool and interesting abilities and good stats.
Maybe have a new kind of stealth unit that is fast moving, fast attacking but does less damage.
I don't know what he's doing, but you're clearly not listening to what he's saying. He's not saying that the Banshee and Reaper are bad units. He's saying that the Terrans as a race would be perfectly functional without them. They would still be for the most part balanced.Quote:
Banshees are awesomely useful and there is nothing that does their job as well. They are irreplaceable. You just have to learn how to use them.
Reapers, too, serve their purpose. Yes, they're most useful in the early game but that's fine. They still served their purpose if you can do it right. You can probably even end the game if you bunker or Reaper effectively with a backup.
(PS: If I'm trolling, what is it exactly that you do here?)
Yes, you wouldn't have that early Reaper harass, or Banshee rush. But Terrans still have plenty of ways to put early pressure on a player without these units.
OK, what are the SC1 air units that are not "capital ships"? Each race has a transport. Added to that are Scourge, Mutalisks, Corsairs, Scouts, Wraiths, Valkyries, Queens, Vessels, and Arbiters. Devourers are expensive enough (in Zerg terms of expense) to be considered Capital Ships for this purpose.Quote:
air units were VERY frequent in BW: I'm disagreeing with squid's initial statement "air is horrible in BW"
Everybody is going to use their transports when appropriate, so those don't matter to this discussion. Transports are targets to be protected, not combat units.
Of these actual air combat units, how many of them see actual use? Two of the flying spellcasters. Mutalisks (ie: the one that actually has a decent cost:AtG damage ratio) and Scourge (ie: the one that has the highest cost:AtA damage ratio). Every other air unit is purely situational when it is used at all.
Corsairs are only seen in PvZ, and even then, many PvZ builds only make one or two to scout the Zerg early-on. Wraiths are only seen in TvZ, and these require specialized near-all-in builds to even consider using. Valkyries were semi-popular as part of Mech vs. Zerg, but that is a somewhat out-of-favor build compared to conventional TvZ tactics. Everything else? Fail.
Of the 9 air units, only 4 are common-place, and two of those are spellcasters. Of the 9 air units, 2 are utterly worthless. And of the 3 that are non-common-place, they're still not seen in any significant numbers.
Here's the oddity, one that seems to play to your favor, so I'm not sure why you didn't mention it. There are no non-transport, non-spellcaster air units used in PvT at all. Air units are only ever deployed against the Zerg. If Scourge are so overpowered, why?
Part of it is the tech cost of the Spire. There are many Zerg builds, ZvP mainly, that would like nothing better than to skip the damn thing entirely. But more than that is one simple fact: the Zerg are the only race that actually has something flying that is integral to the functioning of that race. Overlord ensure that the Zerg always have something that needs defending, which in turn makes an otherwise useless unit like the Corsair or Wraith more valuable.
And even then, Corsairs and Wraiths will die to Scourge. Fast and bloody. Wraith-based builds work based on surprise and speed: getting out before the Spire. Corsairs can beat Scourge, but only if you get 7+ of them. Otherwise, they're dead meat too.
Most important of all Scourge are the reason why captial ships can virtually never be deployed against the Zerg. Carriers especially, but this goes for BCs in smaller numbers too.
It's wrong to say that Scourge are the major contributing factor to the general crappiness of SC1's air model, but you can't deny that:
1: Scourge are a cheap, powerful, anti-air unit that negates many air-based tactics almost immediately.
2: SC1's air model sucked; at best, there are only a couple of air units that can be used in a particular matchup.
Of course it does. If Scourge existed in SC2, especially with larva being rather more available, do you honestly think that, outside of an explicit timing window (ie: get your StarPort+TechLab before they get their Lair+Spire), that Banshees or Void Rays would ever see use? Of course not.Quote:
It's true that these unit's strong AtG makes them viable and dangerous even in small numbers, but this efficiency has nothing to do with the absence of scourge...
A Banshee would be 25/75 from being dead. That's well less than half the cost of a Corruptor, and still far less than a single Mutalisk, and the Scourge are far more effective anti-air than either of those.
The best you could hope for is a dynamic like SC1 fell into with Wraiths, where you could get them first and maybe do some harassment, but you had to transition to something else or you're toast. Wraiths would never be line units that could support an army in the field. Why? Because they can be swatted from the sky with ease.
Nice to see you Nicol :D
Nicol:
-The use of transports is very relevant. If the SC:BW air is so unsafe because of scourge, why is there so much dropship play?
-Why aren't you considering flying spellcasters as air units? Again, if the air is so unsafe because of scourge, the science vessel shouldn't so much more present than the raven.
-Wraiths are squelched just as easily/difficultly by mutalisks as they are by scourge.
-The valkyrie isn't the viking. It's much more of an assist unit, and fills that role well.
-Actually only 5 corsairs are necessary to handle scourge, but I get your point. However, it's not entirely true that most protoss only make or two to scout. Many Protoss rely heavily on corsairs, and sair strategie can be some of the worst to handle as a zerg player.
I'm glad we agree here.Quote:
It's wrong to say that Scourge are the major contributing factor to the general crappiness of SC1's air model, but you can't deny that:
1) Yes scourge do negate some purely air-based tactics, but that's called a hard counter. Why is the scourge getting all the hate here? Next thing we know, squid will be saying the defiler broke the ZvT matchup.
They negate those strategies at a cost however, and at a risk, which isn't always negligible. I specifically recall leta owning a zerg (I think it was calm, one of my favorite zerg from STX, who happens to have some great micro) who had responded to leta's dual port with a spire and just couldn't fight off leta's awesome wraith. I can't say scourge "negate that air-based tactic immediately". Though again, yes are a hard counter to some NON-ASSISTED air units such as the carrier. The other air units it owns are assist units essentially (SV, valk, etc...).
2) I think we aren't seeing BW air from the same angle. I LOVED that BW air had spellcasters, pure AtA units that were there as an assist. I never once wished that I could build a pure air army and roll over a ground army. That would be uninteresting to me. It also doesn't bother me that some units were reserved to certain matchups. Does it bother you that PvT doesn't involve any infantry? Did the HT break that match-up? I know I've grown to love that match-up.
Now your "cost-efficiency to kill a banshee" example:
It is flawed. Surely I don't have to remind you that you have to suicide those scourge to kill a banshee. This isn't a straight-up battle we're talking about. This is mutalisks/corruptors that can kill banshees (fairly quickly btw) while taking zero damage, versus sacrificing units to be cost efficient.
If the banshees are mixed into an army, that's a different story though.
I should point out that I'm not saying the scourge would have zero impact if it were added to SC2, but it's a completely different animal.
Finally, the reason wraiths aren't great to assist your army isn't quite because they can be swatted easily by scourge imo. To me it's because they can be killed easily by anything if they aren't dancing around. They are a tactical unit, that I would be inclined to compare with the reaper. I don't think their weakness really has much to do with the scourge flying around: Which is my whole point to begin with!
Meh, SC2 terran would be boring if they didn't have some key options like early reapers or banshees. The whole point of the race is that you don't always know what to expect. Think of how much the mere existence of void rays has affected ZvP.Quote:
Yes, you wouldn't have that early Reaper harass, or Banshee rush. But Terrans still have plenty of ways to put early pressure on a player without these units.