[Finale Spoiler] Finale discussion

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

She didn't spare Raynor at all; she betrayed Raynor. Or did you somehow miss her murder of Fenix? The fact that her betrayal didn't actually involve her killing Raynor does not mean that she was in any way nice or kind to him.

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Yeah, she betrayed him which is one of the things that drove him to alcohol. She spared him by him not being a target in that mission and much eariler when she was "reborn" in the original Zergcampaign.

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

Again: 4 years. Furthermore, they'd have all of WoL to explain how she's changed.

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Yeah you can come up with Plot for anything. That isn´t the point though, what needs to be justified is her role in the Story.

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

Just because you can only think in the limited dichotomy of protagonist or antagonist doesn't mean that these are the only two possibilities for a main character.

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Again, that is based on her role in the story.

To clarify it, the core story in WoL is the relationship between Raynor and Kerrigan, how Raynor is suffering from her return, his powerlesness to "cure her evilness", his reaction to seeing hope to save her and how that turns him against his allies (I´m especially refering to the dialoge after "Supernova") culminating in shooting his best Friend.

So, I´d like you to be a bit more concrete about what you imagine of it in Terms of STORY. No need to specify plotpoints, justifications or something like that. Just try not to repeat Broodwars please.

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To clarify it, the core story in WoL is the relationship between Raynor and Kerrigan, how Raynor is suffering from her return, his powerlesness to "cure her evilness", his reaction to seeing hope to save her and how that turns him against his allies (I´m especially refering to the dialoge after "Supernova") culminating in shooting his best Friend.

So, I´d like you to be a bit more concrete about what you imagine of it in Terms of STORY. No need to specify plotpoints, justifications or something like that. Just try not to repeat Broodwars please.

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It would be exactly what I said earlier in the thread: Kerrigan becoming less human. She would become Zerg. She would define what it means to be Zerg. She would be improving the Zerg, perhaps by making them less centralized (no controlling intelligence, or more sub-intelligences), or by incorporating more things into the Swarm. Or whatever.

In the end, Kerrigan would give herself fully to the Swarm, to the point when she becomes as a God to them. Unseen, unknowable, perhaps felt, etc. She would then give them the freedom to grow for themselves.

She would not have human morality; she would have Zerg morality, whatever that means.

That is plot. So Kerrigan turns into the Overmind, a non-character indistinguishable from a racial attribute. "Evolving" is what the Overmind and thus the Zerg race wanted before they took Kerrigan to give the Zerg a "face", a character.

Ok, so let´s go with that. But what does it MEAN? Why does she become less human and what does that mean for the other characters in Starcraft? It sounds like the opposite of character development the way you put it.

Regarding that I´d like to point out that "the big bad everyone has to unite against" is a setting not an antagonist. In Starcraft the setting was the Zerg and the story was Mengsks Rebellion, Kerrigans infestation and Tassadars struggle to unite the "high" and "dark" Protoss.

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Originally Posted by unentschieden

Regarding that I´d like to point out that "the big bad everyone has to unite against" is a setting not an antagonist. In Starcraft the setting was the Zerg and the story was Mengsks Rebellion, Kerrigans infestation and Tassadars struggle to unite the "high" and "dark" Protoss.

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All right, let's look into your interpretation. Instead of 'setting' though I'll use the term 'backdrop' just because that's harder to misinterpret.

So against the backdrop of the Zerg, who act primarily as catalysts for driving other plots, we have the individual stories of Mengsk's rebellion, Kerrigan's infestation, Tassadar's struggle for unification. OK, let's say we agree.

Fast-forward to Brood War. We have the backdrop of the UED invasion, and set against it we have everyone banding together with Kerrigan, and Kerrigan playing the different factions against one another.

Fast-forward to Reign of Chaos. We have the backdrop of the Demonic invasion, and set against it we have (in the last two campaigns) the Alliance, the Horde, and the Sentinels banding together with Arthas (through Illidan) representing the Scourge, and the Lich King through Arthas playing the different factions against one another.

Uh-oh. Seeing a problem yet?

Fast-forward to Legacy of the Void. We have the backdrop of the Hybrid invasion, and set against it we have the Terrans, the Zerg, and the Protoss banding together with ... who's the wild card this time? Duran? Valerian? Kerrigan again? Ulrezaj? ...and said wild card playing the factions against one another.

So let's say the Hybrid invasion isn't a story itself, as you put it, it's only the backdrop for stories. Well, as Nicol said earlier in this thread, it just doesn't leave any room for more nuanced stories than the ones that've already been told. As long as you're not Chaotic Evil you as a sentient character have no choice but to ally against the greater threat, no matter who that happens to be.

This is definitely one of the biggest concerns right now with where SC2 is going. Many of the things that "went wrong" with WOL can be learned from and fixed in future campaigns. I'm not sure Blizz has any intention of preventing this mess, however.

Nicol Bolas (and I'm sure there are others as well), I find it funny how you're already jumping to conclusions as to what HotS will be about and seem to be criticising Blizzard's decisions based solely on your own assumptions. The fact is that we don't know what exactly has come of Kerrigan. This is even pointed out in the final mission since they don't know what exactly the Artifact does or how it works. What we do know is that HotS will be a Zerg campaign and that Kerrigan will be the main protagonist of HotS. That means, Kerrigan = Zerg must somehow still be true. You mention failure of imagination earlier in this thread but I think it is you who are lacking imagination on the great potential for story Blizzard has set up simply because they are seemingly not going in the direction you would have preferred.

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Originally Posted by pure.Wasted

All right, let's look into your interpretation. Instead of 'setting' though I'll use the term 'backdrop' just because that's harder to misinterpret.

So against the backdrop of the Zerg, who act primarily as catalysts for driving other plots, we have the individual stories of Mengsk's rebellion, Kerrigan's infestation, Tassdara's struggle for unification. OK, let's say we agree.

Fast-forward to Brood War. We have the backdrop of the UED invasion, and set against it we have everyone banding together with Kerrigan, and Kerrigan playing the different factions against one another.

Fast-forward to Reign of Chaos. We have the backdrop of the Demonic invasion, and set against it we have (in the last two campaigns) the Alliance, the Horde, and the Sentinels banding together with Arthas (through Illidan) representing the Scourge, and the Lich King through Arthas playing the different factions against one another.

Uh-oh. Seeing a problem yet?

Fast-forward to Legacy of the Void. We have the backdrop of the Hybrid invasion, and set against it we have the Terrans, the Zerg, and the Protoss banding together with ... who's the wild card this time? Duran? Valerian? Kerrigan [i]again[i/]? Ulrezaj? ...and said wild card playing the factions against one another.

So let's say the Hybrid invasion isn't a story itself, as you put it, it's only the backdrop for stories. Well, as Nicol said earlier in this thread, it just doesn't leave any room for more nuanced stories than the ones that've already been told. As long as you're not Chaotic Evil you as a sentient character have no choice but to ally against the greater threat, no matter who that happens to be.

This is definitely one of the biggest concerns right now with where SC2 is going. Many of the things that "went wrong" with WOL can be learned from and fixed in future campaigns. I'm not sure Blizz has any intention of preventing this mess, however.

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Perhaps. However, the concept of the Enemy Mine, where foes must work together to achieve a common goal is a classic trope and is older than dirt. It's how the different factions realise this and come together that makes it interesting. It's not about the destination but the journey, as they say.

Definetly. Its formalistic and unoriginal but that alone doesn´t stop it from being good. Lord of the Rings had Sauron. Basically every WW2 movie ever had Hitler. In WoL Mengsk and Kerrigan hold these roles, the Hybrids are merely hinted at.

What I´m criticising on Nicolas suggestion is that he wants to turn Kerrigan into such a Setpiece instead of developing her character.

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

It would be exactly what I said earlier in the thread: Kerrigan becoming less human. She would become Zerg. She would define what it means to be Zerg. She would be improving the Zerg, perhaps by making them less centralized (no controlling intelligence, or more sub-intelligences), or by incorporating more things into the Swarm. Or whatever.

In the end, Kerrigan would give herself fully to the Swarm, to the point when she becomes as a God to them. Unseen, unknowable, perhaps felt, etc. She would then give them the freedom to grow for themselves.

She would not have human morality; she would have Zerg morality, whatever that means.

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What he describes is a setpiece, not a character. That is not an improvement and you can´t tell a Story with this. When I asked him to suggest a plot I expected that we´d learn about Kerrigans themes, conflicts, character, maybe even change and well, morality. The above lacks ANY of these, he actually says himself that he doesn´t know what her morals are.

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Originally Posted by mr. peasant

Perhaps. However, the concept of the Enemy Mine, where foes must work together to achieve a common goal is a classic trope and is older than dirt. It's how the different factions realise this and come together that makes it interesting. It's not about the destination but the journey, as they say.

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I've got absolutely nothing against the old cleverly-plotted alliance shift. Really, in this day and age you need those to keep characters and arcs feeling fresh and interesting.

The alliance between Valerian and Raynor, for one, I thought played out beautifully. Both were presented as inherently reasonable characters who cared more about achieving specific goals than strictly following ideologies -- that they should ally when their goals converged was a natural evolution of both characters. Both go on to hang a lampshade on this -- Valerian is open about the fact that he's using Raynor, and Raynor's open about the fact that he doesn't care as long as he gets what he wants out of the bargain.

The reason this works so well is that both of them are proactive characters in this instance; they ally not in helpless response to something outside of their control, but as an extension of their ongoing arcs. In the end, this sort of alliance shift develops characters, helps flesh them out. On the other end of the spectrum you have the Galactic Evil, which FORCES characters, regardless of their ongoing arcs and individual flaws, into an alliance. Not only does this (usually) not have the effect of fleshing them out, it actually blurs them all together into a single formless entity.

Contrast and compare: Jaina at the beginning of The Scourge of Lordaeron, Thrall at the beginning of The Invasion of Kalimdor, and Tyrande at the beginning of Eternity's End, when they all display glaring flaws and are sufficiently different from one another, vs. all of these characters in Twilight of the Gods, when they don't and... aren't.

The only way to make this work in telling a new story is by introducing inter-conflicts such as Illidan's -- to what lengths will you go fighting the Big Bad, how competent in said fight are you, and so on. If, for instance, Raynor sabotaged everyone's efforts to save the galaxy in LOTV by taking the opportunity of being close to once-again-ally Mengsk Sr. to kill the bastard... dooming the universe in the process... yeah, that might be an interesting take.

But I must say, I've got my doubts.

Just finished the campaign...Sigh...ok where to begin....

So the Queen of Blades was created by the Overmind as part of a xanatos gambit to free the zerg from their forced imperatives. That means it basically had planned it's own destruction at the hands of the protoss all along...kay..

the final mission involving Kerrigan becoming human again....hmmg....hurgglee...BLEAAAARGH..(give me a moment while I clean up my keyboard).

Regarding Tychus death...I suppose I wasn't to surprised...(bit of forshadowing in the cinematic when Raynor is first reunited with Tychus)

I guess I'm still kinda taking it all in..

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Originally Posted by phazonjunkie

I guess I'm still kinda taking it all in..

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It does take some time for it all to sink in, doesn't it? :)
I, myself, was quite ambivalent about it at first. It took a while, before I could decide how I felt about the story.

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So Kerrigan turns into the Overmind, a non-character indistinguishable from a racial attribute.

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Except that's not what I said, is it? You're the one saying that I'm turning Kerrigan into the Overmind. You're the one who's further saying that the Overmind is a "non-character" (despite the fact that he has done character things).

If you're going to argue, you could at least argue my actual points, not some strawman you erect for yourself.

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But what does it MEAN? Why does she become less human and what does that mean for the other characters in Starcraft?

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You asked specifically to not include those things, like "justifications" and whatever. So I gave you a specific sequence of events. ie: what happens.

What does it mean? It means that there's something out there beyond human reason, beyond human moral law, beyond human thought. It means that Kerrigan has willingly given up her humanity to be something more. It means that she has become something new and incomprehensible.

If you want a more "human" take, it's about a person finding herself and her place in the universe. And what one has to be willing to give up in order to attain it.

You could say that Kerrigan, Queen of Blades was a flawed creation because of her humanity. Because she was forced into. But Sarah Kerrigan choosing to give up her humanity, choosing to become fully one with the Swarm gives birth to a new kind of being.

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I'm not sure Blizz has any intention of preventing this mess, however.

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Well, it is the inevitable result of having someone who, quite frankly, is simply not a good writer in charge of, well, writing. He found something that "worked" decently well, so everything he does is just variations on that.

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When I asked him to suggest a plot I expected that we´d learn about Kerrigans themes, conflicts, character, maybe even change and well, morality.

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That's not what a plot is; that's what a story is. Story is three things: Theme, Plot, and Character. Plot is "what happened". Character is "why did it happen". Theme is "what does it mean?"

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So the Queen of Blades was created by the Overmind as part of a xanatos gambit to free the zerg from their forced imperatives. That means it basically had planned it's own destruction at the hands of the protoss all along...kay..

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To me, that's really the best part. It plugs up all kinds of plotholes from SC1. Like how the Overmind went on and on about how important Kerrigan was... only to leave her behind on Char when the big invasion of Aiur took place. How the Overmind decided to take physical form... on the planet of the most technologically advanced race in the galaxy next to the Xel'Naga.

Now it all makes sense. Kerrigan stays behind because she's important. The whole Zerg invasion of Aiur is a distraction. The Overmind ensures its own destruction by going there personally.

Too bad these events already happened. If something that clever had happened during the campaign, then the writing might not have been so bad.