Kalathi and Tagal

We know that these are both races in the general backstory of SC. However, we know next to nothing about them. This is for speculation as to what these two races who the Protoss seriously screwed over are like.

Kalathi
Personally, I always thought that the Kalathi were a race of felinoid humanoids, with a social structure not unlike lions. But that's probably only because of the similarities their name has to the Kilrathi from Wing Commander.

Tagal
These guys seem almost like they'd be those bumpy-headed aliens that appear all the time on Star Trek (no not Klingons). Other than that, I can't really think up too much about them.

What are your thoughts on these two races?

I think the Kalathi kinda looks like or in character similar to night elves, as Tagal to taurens. Without the magic of course.

Or Kalathi's would most likely be like shamanistic and such, while the Tagal a hard battle-toad type race.

By their names, that is.

Nice description of the Kalath intercession from sc2.com:

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Juras' mind wandered, flowing through the depths of his many memories. He heard psionic screams, saw a flash of light. The kalathi had gathered at dawn, two great armies bent on destroying each other. Protoss researchers had watched the young species from an enclosure, protected by their shields.

Juras heard his own voice saying the fateful words, "We must stop them, Executor. They are like children; let us use our weapon to scare them into submission. We cannot stand by and let them destroy each other."
Juras flinched. He did not want to remember this.

Walking through a devastated city. Slabs of stone lying askew, kalathi bodies strewn everywhere. Splintered bones protruding at odd angles, torn flesh sagging as blood drained from young and old, male and female. All dead. The executor had indeed used a powerful weapon as a warning, but the kalathi had not desisted; they had turned on the protoss researchers. Kalathi Bloodreavers had attacked the shields, screaming their bloodlust. Outnumbered and surrounded, the protoss had let loose their mighty weapon, and the kalathi had died. That was the flashpoint. The kalathi attacked protoss at every opportunity thereafter. General war had erupted and Colossi had been deployed. By the end of it all, hundreds of thousands of kalathi were dead.

Later Juras had walked alone in the kalathi's great city, letting the images of death, of lives shattered and ended too soon, burn into his mind. He would never forget: the protoss had used a terrifying weapon on another intelligent species.

A weapon designed by Juras.

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I really don't like what these other new races are turning into. Suffice to say that after the Zerg and the Protoss, my hopes were set a little higher.

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__...SC2_Head1.JPEG

Speaking of other races, does anyone think this "Dark Voice" might be the Voice in Darkness? The name is similar, and it looks like it could be a possessed protoss.

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Originally Posted by Hellgrinder

We know that these are both races in the general backstory of SC. However, we know next to nothing about them. This is for speculation as to what these two races who the Protoss seriously screwed over are like.

Kalathi
Personally, I always thought that the Kalathi were a race of felinoid humanoids, with a social structure not unlike lions. But that's probably only because of the similarities their name has to the Kilrathi from Wing Commander.

Tagal
These guys seem almost like they'd be those bumpy-headed aliens that appear all the time on Star Trek (no not Klingons). Other than that, I can't really think up too much about them.

What are your thoughts on these two races?

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I always imagined Kalathi somewhat like the Predator from Aliens (not in technology, but in looks and tribal behavior), while the Tagal would be somewhat more like the Turians from Mass Effect.

ive always thought of kalathi somewhat like protoss :\ dunno kalathi just seems like a protoss esque word

I don't see how you can jump to that conclusion, pure.Waster. None of the texts so far give any sort of description of them. Moreover their reaction is really no different from what our own would have been now, forty years ago, or a century ago. Their existence is meant to elucidate upon the Dae'Uhl and provide background for Colossi.

Tagal was just some throw away alien-ish name Chris Metzen slapped into the script. As of yet, they have no substance in the SC universe.

I would, however, like to see some of the alien races make an appearance in StarCraft, to show how, once upon a time, the Protoss were majestic protectors of the stars -- and sometimes, not as smart as they wanted to think they were.

@Kimera: Where have you been lately? We arrived at that theory weeks ago. :p Some say it's Aldaris.

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Originally Posted by Visions of Khas

I don't see how you can jump to that conclusion, pure.Waster. None of the texts so far give any sort of description of them. Moreover their reaction is really no different from what our own would have been now, forty years ago, or a century ago. Their existence is meant to elucidate upon the Dae'Uhl and provide background for Colossi.

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Well, from that excerpt alone we can extrapolate that the Kalathi...

1. Build cities, at least in part of stone.
3. Have two genders, male and female.
4. Have a flesh and bone anatomical structure, even blood.
5. Are intelligent.
6. Age.
7. Die.

I fail to see how they can turn into anything other than rubberhead aliens at this point. Now you might make the argument that the Protoss actually fulfill all of the above criteria, and yet I seem to like them a lot more than I like the Kalathi. Let me use a random example to illustrate why I give the Protoss a pass.

Right now we have in the game 3 distinct factions, Terrans, Protoss, and Zerg. A lot of people seem to like the idea of (eventually) seeing a fully realized UED faction, separate from the Terrans. Ideas on what their units/buildings/features could be have come up for years, and some of them are pretty interesting.

But there is a finite amount of differences we could come up with between human factions to keep them interesting, isn't there? OK, Terrans and the UED. Can we add another, for the UPL? Can we add another, for... Time Traveling Terrans From The Future? At some point, there just aren't going to be enough differences to emphasize; not only will that make the newcomers feel trite and stale, it will cheapen the identity of the oldies who happen to share traits with them.

Now back to the Protoss and the Kalathi. The Protoss don't have mouths, they don't have noses, they don't have (obvious) reproductive organs, they have bow-legged feet, and so on. In a sense, they've taken most of the "as far away from human without becoming un-human" qualities for themselves.

How do the Kalathi look? If they have mouths, then they are even more humanoid. If they don't have mouths, they cheapen the Protoss's uniqueness while simultaneously not being original themselves. Do they fight with melee weapons? That again infringes upon Protoss identity. And so on.


It looks like their role in the lore is going to remain incidental, and in that case it's not wrong, per se, to not put the same amount of creativity into them as went into the main races.

But I am worried that we're going to see a resurgence of the same phenomena that's taken over WarCraft. Where a different type of creatures exists for pretty much every situation imaginable. That works for a fantasy game, but in modern, adult science fiction... I don't want to be seeing "blue people with no noses, red people with long necks, green people with brown spots on their skin."

That does not a mature understanding of space and all its possibilities portray.

True, the Protoss have taken a number of non-human-like features. However, they are far from all the possibilities. For instance, the Kalathi could still differ from the Protoss and Terrans in terms of the number of eyes and limbs (arms and legs). Maybe they have wings and can fly. Maybe they have beaks instead of mouths. Perhaps, they could even have feathers rather than fur/hair or scale. And that's just the off the top of my head with the assumption they share the same body configuration as Terrans and Protoss. There are still countless other phenotypic variations available.

And that's not even considering culture. Depending on the way they dress, their social structure and the technology available to them, they too can feel considerably different. Take the High and Blood Elves from Warcraft for instance. They are effectively the same race but their mindset and way of dress give them a considerably different feel.

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Originally Posted by mr. peasant

True, the Protoss have taken a number of non-human-like features. However, they are far from all the possibilities. For instance, the Kalathi could still differ from the Protoss and Terrans in terms of the number of eyes and limbs (arms and legs). Maybe they have wings and can fly. Maybe they have beaks instead of mouths. Perhaps, they could even have feathers rather than fur/hair or scale. And that's just the off the top of my head with the assumption they share the same body configuration as Terrans and Protoss. There are still countless other phenotypic variations available.

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In a sense, this is true. But I feel that simply by virtue of being humanoid at all they begin to infringe upon the Terran/Protoss identities.

It's not that Blizzard ever said (or even implied) that the two are the only humanoid races in the universe... rather that the very idea of having many humanoid races in the universe is so far-fetched that even one (Protoss) would have been pushing it had they not nailed it so superbly, and kept running in the right direction all the way out of the park.

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And that's not even considering culture. Depending on the way they dress, their social structure and the technology available to them, they too can feel considerably different. Take the High and Blood Elves from Warcraft for instance. They are effectively the same race but their mindset and way of dress give them a considerably different feel.

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Absolutely. Which is why I wouldn't, in principle, be against split Khala/Dark Templar factions. But the idea of creating beaked, winged, or hoofed, red, white, or green aliens with a different culture and architecture... it still hits a little too close to home for me.

I mean, there's SO, SO, SO much out there that does not need to be vaguely humanoid to be interesting. The Zerg proved this 12 years ago, but they're far from the be-all, end-all, IMO. I'd be disappointed if they ended up being Blizzard's only foray into all the bizarreness that the cosmos has to offer.

Bump. No other brave souls dare chime in on the discussion? :(

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Well, from that excerpt alone we can extrapolate that the Kalathi...

1. Build cities, at least in part of stone.
3. Have two genders, male and female.
4. Have a flesh and bone anatomical structure, even blood.
5. Are intelligent.
6. Age.
7. Die.

I fail to see how they can turn into anything other than rubberhead aliens at this point.

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I still think you're looking too much into this. Many creatures on earth retain points 4, 5, 6 and 7. We apply such things as intelligence and tool use mostly to ourselves, sentient creatures (though I would argue sentience varies from one creature to another here on earth), and so would likely be applied to the Tagal. If not - if the Tagal didn't build cities or use advanced tools - you would still argue that the Tagal are nothing more than primitive cave dwellers, and still complain about being rubber heads. And I think it's a good thing these are all applied to the aliens, because if they weren't that sort of detail would begin to overshadow the importance of their place in history and the advent of the Colossi. The Zerg are the ones meant to be the most alien, not building structures or using tools or any of these other things you may associate with something truly alien.

I just don't think there's much more to be said until we can get more info... though I do hope other aliens make cameos in the Trilogy.

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Originally Posted by Visions of Khas

I still think you're looking too much into this. Many creatures on earth retain points 4, 5, 6 and 7.

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Yeah, that's the problem. Shouldn't aliens be pretty... well... alien? ;)

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And I think it's a good thing these are all applied to the aliens, because if they weren't that sort of detail would begin to overshadow the importance of their place in history and the advent of the Colossi.

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Well, why did the Colossi even have to be used on aliens? Couldn't it have been just a primitive subsect of Protoss society? If not, there's still the option of simply not describing them. If the language had simply been more vague, ie. "lifeless forms" instead of "bloody bodies" and so on, we wouldn't have skirted this mess to begin with.

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The Zerg are the ones meant to be the most alien, not building structures or using tools or any of these other things you may associate with something truly alien.

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So in a world that is apparently populated by aliens, only one of those alien species is supposed to be truly alien? Yeah, this is the part I've got a problem with.

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I just don't think there's much more to be said until we can get more info... though I do hope other aliens make cameos in the Trilogy.

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Let's say you're merrily building your base next to a cliff-side on whatever-planet's-terrain-Desert Oasis-uses... when all of a sudden the outcropping ahead, that you thought was just more cliff, begins to remove itself from the ground. In fact it is a giant crab-like symbiote that attaches itself to the earth, and scales the sides of cliffs to find new homes.

If that's the kind of alien cameos you're talking about, I absolutely agree. But if you're talking about the cantina on Tatooine... no thanks. Aliens should be alien. If we want weird humans, we've still got the Umojans, the Kel-Morians, the UED to get through.

I'm still so pumped that I discovered Tagal, and got to have Metzen comment on them in one of our SC:L interviews. :3

Anyway, we still don't know what Kalathi look like. If they had their reproductive organs on their face and their face on their back, and nine different limbs, it would still be a "bloody body" if they got killed. Though different humanoids are common in sci-fi's there's nothing really wrong with that, as you'd expect different intelligent species on other planets to show signs of parallel evolution.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

I'm still so pumped that I discovered Tagal, and got to have Metzen comment on them in one of our SC:L interviews. :3

Anyway, we still don't know what Kalathi look like. If they had their reproductive organs on their face and their face on their back, and nine different limbs, it would still be a "bloody body" if they got killed. Though different humanoids are common in sci-fi's there's nothing really wrong with that, as you'd expect different intelligent species on other planets to show signs of parallel evolution.

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Why do we need (more) conventionally intelligent aliens?

Unless these Tagal are meant to be at some point playable, I don't see the need. Hell, the Zerg manage without it and they ARE playable.

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Originally Posted by Pure.Wasted

Couldn't it have been just a primitive subsect of Protoss society?

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I thought it was meant to help elucidate the development of the Dae'Uhl. An enemy faction of Protoss might have introduced some history elements that the writers didn't want.

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Let's say you're merrily building your base next to a cliff-side on whatever-planet's-terrain-Desert Oasis-uses... when all of a sudden the outcropping ahead, that you thought was just more cliff, begins to remove itself from the ground. In fact it is a giant crab-like symbiote that attaches itself to the earth, and scales the sides of cliffs to find new homes.

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I'd be pretty pumped! And the thing is, we don't know that the Kalathi or Tagal aren't like this! They may build cities, but beyond that we know nothing about them, so you may have described present-day Tagal right there!

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Originally Posted by pure.Wasted

Why do we need (more) conventionally intelligent aliens?

Unless these Tagal are meant to be at some point playable, I don't see the need. Hell, the Zerg manage without it and they ARE playable.

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It makes the Xel'Naga look good - they're a cosmic race that created other entire races in this corner of the galaxy (some of them intelligent). Apart from that, Tagal or Kalathi have neither been adequately described nor are playable, so there's really no issue here.

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Originally Posted by pure.Wasted

Bump. No other brave souls dare chime in on the discussion? :(

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What we're proposing is essentially fanfiction.

It's hard to write fanfiction if you don't know what's going on. I visit the StarCraft section of Fanfiction.net often, and I've noticed three things:

1) My favorite stories don't involve StarCraft: Ghost or StarCraft II, which surprised me.
2) There are very few StarCraft: Ghost stories, and they always cut out when things get interesting. Always.
3) Same with stories that involve hybrids. (Those that continue -- like First of the Thirdborn -- tend to kill off Duran right away, essentially turning the hybrid into a "freak" rather than having any StarCraft II plot significance.)
3a) If Duran appears in a story, he either has nothing to do with hybrids, plays a cameo, or gets killed off, fast. (This happened in one of the Brain Damage series, where Duran got killed off a year before StarCraft II!)

Since no one really knows anything about either Ghost or hybrids, they can't write anything. The unknowns restrict their imaginations, not enhance them, especially since at some point in the near future, we'll know all the details, and they will counteract a lot of the fanfiction out there.

Same thing with the kalathi, it seems. No one wants their fanfiction destroyed in a week.

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Originally Posted by Visions of Khas

I thought it was meant to help elucidate the development of the Dae'Uhl. An enemy faction of Protoss might have introduced some history elements that the writers didn't want.

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But creating a rubberhead alien universe is something they had no qualms with? :p I know I'm badgering this to death. The reason isn't that I'm so upset over the Kalathi -- they are as minor a point to me as they are to you. The reason is I'm concerned with the approach that led to the creation of the Kalathi.

I'm worried that Blizz might get in the habit of taking the easy way out of problems -- inventing conveniently weird aliens, as opposed to genuinely putting thought into making each one bizarre and distinct and thematically interesting. Not as the Protoss's chew toys, but in and of themselves.

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I'd be pretty pumped! And the thing is, we don't know that the Kalathi or Tagal aren't like this! They may build cities, but beyond that we know nothing about them, so you may have described present-day Tagal right there!

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I've been waiting for someone to call me out on including the Tagal in my assessment. Well, what can I say? Their name just didn't inspire me with a lot of hope, that was all. :D

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Originally Posted by Gradius

It makes the Xel'Naga look good - they're a cosmic race that created other entire races in this corner of the galaxy (some of them intelligent).

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There's nothing really wrong with intelligence. It's conventional intelligence I take issue with. The Overmind was plenty intelligent, too, but it didn't have soldiers (like the Kalathi), it had minions; it didn't build cities (like the Kalathi), it spawned organs.

We haven't had many descriptions of the Kalathi way of life, but the ones we've had I think are pretty limiting. Blizz can still give them wings, yes, but that's not really what I'm talking about...

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ather that the very idea of having many humanoid races in the universe is so far-fetched that even one (Protoss) would have been pushing it had they not nailed it so superbly, and kept running in the right direction all the way out of the park.

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Not at all. Evolution from unrelated origins can often produce a similar result, and all sentient beings on the universe being bipedal and possessing hand like appendages with a head at the top with eyes and mouths are both very likely.

The primary, immediate benefit of Sentient Intelligence in the way humans experience it is an increased ability to manipulate the environment.. (Make tools, make fire, make carts, etc), in combination with adaptive problem solving.. It would stand to reason that evolution would not evolve to a human level degree unless they were capable of reaping the benefits of it. This would require methods of manipulating the environment. In order to do so effectively, the creature would require at least a vaguely bipedal structure, and vaguely hand like structures, assuming a gravity similar to earths. A zergling couldn't build a fire. Neither could a hydralisk. Neither could even an octopus. Not as in their not smart enough, but it simply isn't PHYSICALLY POSSIBLE with their physical forms.

Putting the head farthest away from the feet seems to be a generally sound evolutionary strategy.

In the end their would be a VERY good chance that any spacefaring alien civilization would at least be bipedal, possess hand/arm-like structures (2, or possible a few more), and a head on top, the end result being vaguely humanoid.

I think an analogy would be how bats and birds are very similar despite having no (vaguely recent) common origin.

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Evolution from unrelated origins can often produce a similar result

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True story. Case in point: convergent evolution.

The hands are such a successful tool because of the myriad shapes it can make and our brain's ability to take advantage of it. But aliens don't necessarily have to be humanoid or look similarly. We became bipedal to free up our hands. Perhaps they have tentacles, dexterous wings or mouths, multiple arms, or telekinetic abilities to manipulate the environment.

I wonder if this whole humanoid centrism comes from sci-fi, where the only reason for it was budgetary.

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The hands are such a successful tool because of the myriad shapes it can make and our brain's ability to take advantage of it. But aliens don't necessarily have to be humanoid or look similarly. We became bipedal to free up our hands. Perhaps they have tentacles, dexterous wings or mouths, multiple arms, or telekinetic abilities to manipulate the environment.

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Well assuming an earth like gravity, none of the things you mentioned are very viable for things like making tools.

Except multiple arms. Which could be pretty possible.

Obviously they wouldn't be "rubber headed aliens", as facial structures would probably share little similarities between planets.

Honestly they didn't appear particularly developed, I think it could be cool introducing them as a random neutral animal like race that just gets exploded in the midst of the war. But definitely no 4 race :/

I don't see why not. Ever read Larry Niven? His Puppeteers have highly sensitive and dexterous mouths with which they make and manipulate tools. Ever see an octopus manipulate its environs? Ever see a bat climb a tree?

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Originally Posted by newcomplex

The primary, immediate benefit of Sentient Intelligence in the way humans experience it is an increased ability to manipulate the environment.. (Make tools, make fire, make carts, etc), in combination with adaptive problem solving.. It would stand to reason that evolution would not evolve to a human level degree unless they were capable of reaping the benefits of it. This would require methods of manipulating the environment.

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My question is why are your aliens trying to manipulate Earth's environment? There are lots of environments out there that could spawn "life" -- and I use this term loosely -- that does not need air to breathe, legs to walk. How about all those gas giants and water worlds? And I still consider it a failing of my imagination that I look to such obvious parallels, when anything is possible.

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Originally Posted by pure.Wasted

My question is why are your aliens trying to manipulate Earth's environment? There are lots of environments out there that could spawn "life" -- and I use this term loosely -- that does not need air to breathe, legs to walk. How about all those gas giants and water worlds? And I still consider it a failing of my imagination that I look to such obvious parallels, when anything is possible.

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Intelligent life would be literally impossible to develop on a gas giant (ridiculous levels of radiation are trapped by the gravity well), and human-level intelligence would probably not develop underwater due to limited ways to manipulate the environment.

That being said I agree with the overall gist of your post. Different chemical compositions and G's of gravity could yield spectacularly varied forms of life. But the vast majority of them would lack the ability to become sentient races that create stuff. Those that do would stand a good chance of being humanoid. Obviously, their would be exceptions, my main point is it isn't THAT unlikely that evolution created 2 similar results in 2 similar for 2 similar niches in 2 similar environments from two separate "bases". If we find intelligent life that is able to like, make fire, etc, you could put money that they'd be humanoid.

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I don't see why not. Ever read Larry Niven? His Puppeteers have highly sensitive and dexterous mouths with which they make and manipulate tools. Ever see an octopus manipulate its environs? Ever see a bat climb a tree?

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no, but off the top of my head those are those duck things with three legs and two heads right? An intelligent race using the most critical part of their body (the head/mouth) to make complex interactions with the environment sounds like an exceptionally stupid idea. Imagine when they discovered arsenic. Ugh.

I don't imagine that intellect would have proven particularly useful for them.



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I think I'm going on a bit of a tangent now...for the record, no, a 4th playable race or a 4th race that looks like a Klingons would be retarded. But I'd be ok with the bipedal/chest/head formula of a race that didn't do anything but run around and get massacred on the battlefeild :p. And leaving them out altogether would be fine.

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Originally Posted by newcomplex

That being said I agree with the overall gist of your post. Different chemical compositions and G's of gravity could yield spectacularly varied forms of life. But the vast majority of them would lack the ability to become sentient races that create stuff. Those that do would stand a good chance of being humanoid. Obviously, their would be exceptions, my main point is it isn't THAT unlikely that evolution created 2 similar results in 2 similar for 2 similar niches in 2 similar environments from two separate "bases".

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Fair enough. I have heard of convergent evolution before, and it does make sense; I suppose it's just a case of reality seeming a little odd.

But I was wrong to make it sound as though realism is one of my primary goals. That's... not really what the SC world is all about. I mean, we have "the Void" and we have conscious, sentient beings made up of pure energy waltzing around, and God only knows what else lurking in the shadows of the cosmos.

All I want is crazy visuals and crazy ideas and... aliens that don't feel mundane and everyday. Aliens that "feel" alien. And if that means making them weirder than science suggests reasonable, well, I suppose that's fine by me. :D

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But I was wrong to make it sound as though realism is one of my primary goals. That's... not really what the SC world is all about. I mean, we have "the Void" and we have conscious, sentient beings made up of pure energy waltzing around, and God only knows what else lurking in the shadows of the cosmos.

All I want is crazy visuals and crazy ideas and... aliens that don't feel mundane and everyday. Aliens that "feel" alien. And if that means making them weirder than science suggests reasonable, well, I suppose that's fine by me.

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I would agree with this. But I think a mission where you go to like a Kalathi "preserve" planet, and just see them all running in horror from the Zerg swarm and Giant lazer beams could be cool :p.

I agree, NewComplex. Made it an alien reinactment of War of the Worlds, with the Kalathi the besieged peoples.

A protoss shuttle touches down, the Kalathi respond by sending in their militia, which is burnt to nothingness by protoss "heat beams".

I'd lol