Frustrated with Design Gimmicks

As the game nears release, we've seen an influx of more and more gimmick design decisions taking over the game. SC has always been lauded for its "simplistic" approach to designing units and abilities -- things do what you expect them to do, no more, no less. No exceptions.

And now we're getting those exceptions, in their anti-common sense... glory?

Infestor's Neural Parasite works on all ground targets... except Ultralisks.

Thor's stun works on all ground targets... except Ultralisks.

Infestor can't cast spells while Burrowed... except Infested Terrans.

Force Fields only impede ground movement... except Burrowed Roaches and Infestors. (why not stop air units from flying overhead, while we're at it?)

Hallucinated units can do anything (short of dealing damage or using abilities) their "real" counterparts can do... except breaking Force Fields. (if they have no 'substance' to break through something, then enemy units should be able to walk through hallucinations -- obviously they cannot)

Immortals drop all damage over 10 to 10... except from Nukes and Yamato Cannons.

Point Defense Drone blocks ranged attacks with visible projectiles... except the Brood Lord's. Oh, and doesn't stop ranged ABILITIES with visible projectiles, although that makes no sense either (Yamato Cannon different from laser how? EMP shot different from bullet how?)

There's absolutely nothing wrong with units doing their own thing. If every unit was just a different model attached to different numbers of stats, the game would get boring fast. But just because design is creative doesn't mean it gets a pass for being inelegant. The Void Ray functions completely differently from any other unit in the game... but it does so consistently. It doesn't act one way toward Marines and another toward Ghosts.

Some of these have easy solutions. An Immortal getting hit by Nukes is such a rare occurrence that whether the Nuke kills it or not is a very insignificant balance detail -- here, the principle of the matter easily trumps "game balance." In other cases, ie the Ultralisk being stopped dead in its tracks by Thor fire, is obviously (in Blizz's eyes) a problem. I'd say scrapping the ability (which was only used vs. Ultras and Immortals TO BEGIN WITH) would be the way to go, since it creates more problems than it solves.

This isn't the biggest issue with SC2 gameplay... but looking over the most recent patch notes (the FULL version), I was reminded how much this inelegant design bugs the hell outta me. [/vent]

So a boo for balance?

Also (Immortals drop all damage over 10 to 10... except from Nukes and Yamato Canons.) don't all special abilities ignore all damage reducing stats?

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Originally Posted by Mandilorordo

So a boo for balance?

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Do you mean to say that I don't care about balance?

That's not really true. What I don't care for is the situation Blizz has gotten themselves into, where gimmick solutions are the only ones that will WORK. If they'd figured out what to do with the Ultralisk instead of "keeping it out of nostalgia" before they actually started trying 2-3 patches ago, we wouldn't be in this mess where Ultralisks need to be immune to abilities A, Q, and Z just to not be worthless.

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Also (Immortals drop all damage over 10 to 10... except from Nukes and Yamato Canons.) don't all special abilities ignore all damage reducing stats?

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"All damage reducing stats"? What other damage reducing stats are there? I wasn't aware that such a rule existed.

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Immortals drop all damage over 10 to 10... except from Nukes and Yamato Cannons.

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This isn't a gimmick, its a mechanic. Immortals damage from abilities and damage from attacks are classified separately, just like in BW and the Warcraft series.

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Point Defense Drone blocks ranged attacks with visible projectiles... except the Brood Lord's. Oh, and doesn't stop ranged ABILITIES with visible projectiles, although that makes no sense either (Yamato Cannon different from laser how? EMP shot different from bullet how?)

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This is kind of the same deal...except maybe the broodlord thing.

Overall I agree with your point, that the games mechanics should be congruent, and nothing should be sacrificed in favor of balance or lore, design the game better so lore and balance don't mess with mechanics....though the things I quoted aren't mechanically incongruent at all. Abilities are not attacks :p.

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"All damage reducing stats"? What other damage reducing stats are there? I wasn't aware that such a rule existed.

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Every ability, because the damage is done differently.

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Originally Posted by pure.Wasted

"All damage reducing stats"? What other damage reducing stats are there? I wasn't aware that such a rule existed.

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armor

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Originally Posted by newcomplex

This isn't a gimmick, its a mechanic. Immortals damage from abilities and damage from attacks are classified separately, just like in BW and the Warcraft series.

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"Nuke" as an ability? On the one hand, duh, yes, a Ghost has to 'cast' it the way any ability is cast. But on the other, you do buy a Nuke, which means it's like a unit in at least some senses.

In any case, it is what it is. I do have a problem with arbitrarily treating abilities different from attacks. Giving Marines an "ability" that says "Shoot Gun" that deals 20 damage to Immortals is bad game design, and I think the difference is too small to matter.

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Originally Posted by Mandilorordo

armor

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I guess if we're treating the shield mechanically as only an extension of the armor... then yes, that's true. But as I said in response to NC, I do take issue with arbitrary ability segregation. All we've done here is transferred the inelegance from one rule to another. :p

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"Nuke" as an ability? On the one hand, duh, yes, a Ghost has to 'cast' it the way any ability is cast. But on the other, you do buy a Nuke, which means it's like a unit in at least some senses.

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It does its damage via ability.

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Giving Marines an "ability" that says "Shoot Gun" that deals 20 damage to Immortals is bad game design, and I think the difference is too small to matter.

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Yes, good thing they don't do that.

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I do have a problem with arbitrarily treating abilities different from attacks.

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...why? Abilities are different from attacks. They were in SC1 too.

(from a gameplay perspective. From a lore perspective, they might be the same, but I don't think you're argueing that considering most of the changes you're for would make the spells more illogical from a lore perspective)

While some are no doubt due to balance, a number of these 'gimmicks' are to add a greater sense of logic to the abilities. For instance, Force Fields stop at ground level. Therefore, a burrowed unit can of course dig underneath it.

Also, with regards to Immortals and Nukes, Blizzard at one point did experiment with the idea that hardened shields managed to withstand Nukes (and possibly Yamato Cannons). However, the community at the time uniformly rejected the idea for both, gameplay balance and logic/believability reasons. As for the frequency of occurence, it's likely to be reasonably common since Immortals are a good all-around unit and Ghosts are a good choice versus Protoss.

These kind of things were all over SCBW.

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Dark Swarm
Cost: 100
Range: 9

Dark Swarm is created from a countless number of smaller creatures that typically cover the Defiler. The Defiler has the natural ability to launch these creatures to a projected position, creating a thick cloud of living insects that prevent any units outside from accurately targeting any units within the cloud.

The Dark Swarm covers a 6x6 matrix area and lasts approximately 60 seconds. Ground units within the cloud cannot be hit by ranged attacks from either ground or air, however this will not stop melee attacks or splash damage from affecting the units inside the Dark Swarm. Note that while ranged attacks will not affect units within the cloud, ranged attacks from units inside the cloud can still hit units outside of the cloud. Also, ranged attacks from units within the cloud will not work against other units inside of the Dark Swarm. To further clarify, listed below are a few strategies to use with Dark Swarm.

By launching a Dark Swarm over enemy ranged attack forces, defensive structures, or a projected battle area, you can give your own melee attack units (Zerglings or Ultralisks) a short period of invulnerability while attacking. A Zergling/Dark Swarm combination makes the Zergling much more valuable. A typical blockade of Bunkers or Photon Cannons can easily be overrun if they're covered with a Dark Swarm and attacked by Zerglings.

Dark Swarm can also serve as protection for your own Hydralisks from enemy ranged attacks. This is especially useful for countering fleets of Carriers or Battlecruisers or even forces of Dragoons, Marines, Goliaths, etc. One thing to watch for when using Dark Swarm on your own units is the enemy trying to sneak in to use it to their advantage. Keep your units at the edge of the cloud to get the most out of the units' attack range as well as to prevent enemy units from sneaking in. Should the enemy approach your Dark Swarm with melee attack units, do everything you can to keep them out. Once they manage to make their way in, they will be able to ravage your ranged attack units within the cloud and turn the advantage against you. If there is no way to stop an incoming melee attack group, retreat far enough so that the enemy is no longer protected by the Dark Swarm and resume the attack.

While Dark Swarm will prevent damage from ranged attacks, it will not protect from ranged special ability effects. Psionic Storm, Maelstrom, Plague, Ensnare, Irradiate, EMP Shockwave, etc. will all still be able to affect units beneath the Dark Swarm.

Terrans are especially vulnerable to Dark Swarm since every Terran unit, except for the Firebat, has a ranged attack and therefore are unable to attack any units within the cloud. A flood of Zerglings protected by a Dark Swarm can easily ravage a Terran base or force. With multiple Dark Swarms covering a large area, the Zerglings have an even greater advantage with free reign over the entire affected location. Be sure to eliminate Firebats and Siege Tanks in Siege Mode first to ensure the advantage they have with the Dark Swarm.

The Protoss, with their Zealots and Dark Templar, are better able to defend against a Dark Swarmed invasion. However, depending on the number of Protoss defenders, a flood of Zerglings protected by Dark Swarm can still be too overwhelming. Watch for Psionic Storms within the Dark Swarm, since they will still ravage hordes of Zerglings at a time. Also keep an eye out for Archons, as their attack does a small amount of splash damage even to units protected under a Dark Swarm.

Opposing Zerg broods can be difficult to use Dark Swarm against, since they can produce their own Zerglings in which case the Dark Swarm is useless. However, Dark Swarm can be used to protect your bases from Guardian/Mutalisk or Hydralisk attack but, once again, be sure to have lots of Zerglings at hand to really turn the tide of battle.

Here is a list of units that are NOT affected by Dark Swarm:

Terrans:


Firebats
Siege Tanks in Siege Mode (can still inflict splash damage)
Protoss:

Probes
Zealots
Dark Templar
Reavers (can still inflict splash damage)
Archons
Zerg:

Drones
Zerglings
Lurkers (can inflict both direct and splash damage)
Ultralisks
Broodlings
Infested Terrans (can inflict both direct and splash damage)
When facing these units, it is usually not worth it to use the Dark Swarm unless you have the numbers to overwhelm them.
One thing to note is that Dark Swarm does not affect buildings in any way or form. Should they be covered in a Dark Swarm, they will NOT be protected from ranged attack either from units inside or outside the cloud, they will take damage as normal.

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Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur

These kind of things were all over SCBW.

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Really? I mean, specifically the newfound mechanic of "works on everything x this one unit"

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Originally Posted by pure.Wasted

In any case, it is what it is. I do have a problem with arbitrarily treating abilities different from attacks. Giving Marines an "ability" that says "Shoot Gun" that deals 20 damage to Immortals is bad game design, and I think the difference is too small to matter.

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This is what I think of Snipe and Thor Barrage, personally. Glorified attacks made into spells for little reason other than being more APM sinks. They have their use (esp snipe vs baneling, vs high templar) but I sorta feel like as a spell it should be more than just long range instant damage vs bio. It's mini yamato. I feel like it could be a more interesting mechanic beyond that.

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Originally Posted by newcomplex

...why? Abilities are different from attacks. They were in SC1 too.

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You said "good thing" that the Marine doesn't have an ability called "Shoot Gun." Well, what's the difference between that and the Thor's Strike Cannons?

Look at it this way: Marine attacks regularly, armor penalty applies. Marine attacks with Stims (ability!), armor penalty applies. Siege Tank attacks regularly, penalty applies. Siege Tank in Siege Mode (new state gained through ability!), penalty applies. Thor attacks regularly, penalty applies. Thor attacks with Cannons (could be said to enter a new state through ability), penalty DOES NOT APPLY.

The only actual reason is that Blizz didn't make a copy of the Thor unit called "Strike Cannon Mode" which has identical stats and deals damage to a single target for its entire duration. If they had (following the Tank's example), there would have been absolutely zero difference as far as we could tell, except that the penalty would have existed.

How is this not inconsistent, thoughtless game design? I'm not saying "thoughtless" to insult Blizz, it's a fairly minor point. But it IS a point that no thought went into.

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Originally Posted by mr. peasant

While some are no doubt due to balance, a number of these 'gimmicks' are to add a greater sense of logic to the abilities. For instance, Force Fields stop at ground level. Therefore, a burrowed unit can of course dig underneath it.

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This makes perfect sense...

Which is why I'm upset that this CHANGED in the most recent patch. Now burrowed units CANNOT dig underneath Force Fields, although they could previously.

I'm 100% for them being able to do so. Not only does it make sense, it's a crazy fun and inventive "counter" to FF happy Protoss without singling out burrowed units "randomly" while leaving flying units undeterred.

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Really? I mean, specifically the newfound mechanic of "works on everything x this one unit"

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I guess Archer was responding to my "ability/attack segregation" complaint, which is threatening to derail this thread. :( I don't know if I should just continue venting on that topic, or take it elsewhere so this can remain purely about "X Y but not Z."

You forgot to mention that Marauders don't slow massive units :p.

But seriously, while I agree that there's more and more 'clutter' with what you need to remember for the units' abilities, I don't think it's at a really horrible point.

The thing to remember is that the Ultralisk's 'Frenzied' passive is now, well, part of what it is. The Immortal's passive is now second-nature to us, but I remember some people didn't quite understand it when it was first explained. Even now, you need to take the unit's damage and number of attacks into account when facing Immortals. Like I said, we all know this stuff now, but the Ultralisk's passive is new.

Also, I think Brood War also had some unintuitive mechanics here and there. Most notably for me - Dark Swarm :p. If I recall, the tooltip description was quite vague, and didn't cover the fact that ranged splash damage goes through it.

At least in SC2, the all the spells behave the way the tooltip describes. :p

As for Roach and burrow, while I'm disappointed that it's a bit of a nerf to Roaches, I'm also not too concerned about 'flavour'. After all, Roaches can't burrow-move under Pylons or a Barracks. In some ways, burrowing under forcefield would be what's out-of-place. It's easier to remember that burrowed Roaches have all the movement restrictions of Roaches above ground.

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You said "good thing" that the Marine doesn't have an ability called "Shoot Gun." Well, what's the difference between that and the Thor's Strike Cannons?

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You misunderstand me Purewasted. The Thors cannon is terrible, I'm just being nitpicky and specifically disagreeing with your "spells should be attacks" thing concerning immortals and Point Defense Drone.

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This makes perfect sense...

Which is why I'm upset that this CHANGED in the most recent patch. Now burrowed units CANNOT dig underneath Force Fields, although they could previously.

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Well this is weird too. Burrowed units are classified identically with normal units, and before, a specific exception was made to allow roaches and infestors underneath.

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You forgot to mention that Marauders don't slow massive units

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But this is moreso a mechanic then anything else, while everything else on his list (most of them) are incongruous with the mechanics that should be governing them.

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Originally Posted by GRUNT

You forgot to mention that Marauders don't slow massive units :p.

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I actually didn't mention it intentionally. There's nothing wrong with units having different traits, and "Massive units" having different traits from others is completely normal. Just like some units can fly. That's not bad, it's not inconsistent, it's just different.

What's inconsistent is if we have 5 massive units and then ONE of them, for NO sensible reason, CAN be slowed by Marauders. That would be a problem, and that's the sort of things I'm addressing with the OP.

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The thing to remember is that the Ultralisk's 'Frenzied' passive is now, well, part of what it is.

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So on this note, I have absolutely nothing against the Ultralisk's identity here being a battering ram. Let's say, for instance, it gains a passive ability that says, "This unit cannot be slowed or stopped by any effects." Great! OK! That's just like what the Immortal does with its shields.

But why the mind control? The Immortal doesn't get a Mind Control clause in its contract. There's an immediately sensible reason for why the gigantic Ultralisk is not affected by the puny Marauders' slowing effects. There's no immediately sensible reason why the Ultralisk's mind cannot be tampered with.

As a rule I think that a mechanic/trait works much better if it is a trait of that UNIT, and not a "counter-trait" of whatever should be affecting that unit. Colossus being hit by AtA attacks because it is Tall is fine. Fungal Growth (fake example) working on everything BUT Thors, for no reason other than that's what it reads on the tooltip, is NOT fine.

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Well this is weird too. Burrowed units are classified identically with normal units, and before, a specific exception was made to allow roaches and infestors underneath.

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I will grant that the case with Burrowed units isn't quite as clear cut as in my other examples. Having said that, I think sufficient difference exists that I'm at least not being a hypocrite when I defend it.

Burrowed units, to my mind, are like Massive units. Do we need burrowed units to have their own characteristics, other than ~Cloak? Not really, just like Massive units didn't NEED to be different. But if it benefits the game, I don't see it as a bad thing.

As long as all Burrow-move capable units Burrow-move identically, there's no problem. Once Roaches start being able to pass Force Fields while Infestors can't, THEN we've got a X, Y, but not Z violation. :p

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Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur

These kind of things were all over SCBW.

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On re-reading the quote you supplied (bold or something would have really helped!), I get the idea you're talking about Siege Tanks and Reavers specifically, which are both "ranged" units that can still deal damage to Dark Swarm-protected Zerg.

Thing is, it's pretty easy to resolve. The mechanic isn't prevent all ranged damage, it's prevent all non-AoE ranged damage. So Tanks, Reavers, Lurkers all get a pass. Add to the fact that it "makes sense" -- shooting a bullet into a fog vs. shooting a nuke, not exactly the same thing. ;)

There's no such way to resolve "Neural Parasite doesn't work on Ultralisks." There's absolutely nothing that is unique to Ultralisks that is not shared by other units, at the VERY least other Massive units.

Dude don't hate, learn to love the beta. It is just a game and not a finishied one, things can change and stuff happens. I may not agree with you in some stuff but I am questioning some of the design mechanics though..

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Originally Posted by pure.Wasted

As the game nears release, we've seen an influx of more and more gimmick design decisions taking over the game. SC has always been lauded for its "simplistic" approach to designing units and abilities -- things do what you expect them to do, no more, no less. No exceptions.

And now we're getting those exceptions, in their anti-common sense... glory?

Infestor's Neural Parasite works on all ground targets... except Ultralisks.

Thor's stun works on all ground targets... except Ultralisks.

Infestor can't cast spells while Burrowed... except Infested Terrans.

Force Fields only impede ground movement... except Burrowed Roaches and Infestors. (why not stop air units from flying overhead, while we're at it?)

Hallucinated units can do anything (short of dealing damage or using abilities) their "real" counterparts can do... except breaking Force Fields. (if they have no 'substance' to break through something, then enemy units should be able to walk through hallucinations -- obviously they cannot)

Immortals drop all damage over 10 to 10... except from Nukes and Yamato Cannons.

Point Defense Drone blocks ranged attacks with visible projectiles... except the Brood Lord's. Oh, and doesn't stop ranged ABILITIES with visible projectiles, although that makes no sense either (Yamato Cannon different from laser how? EMP shot different from bullet how?)

There's absolutely nothing wrong with units doing their own thing. If every unit was just a different model attached to different numbers of stats, the game would get boring fast. But just because design is creative doesn't mean it gets a pass for being inelegant. The Void Ray functions completely differently from any other unit in the game... but it does so consistently. It doesn't act one way toward Marines and another toward Ghosts.

Some of these have easy solutions. An Immortal getting hit by Nukes is such a rare occurrence that whether the Nuke kills it or not is a very insignificant balance detail -- here, the principle of the matter easily trumps "game balance." In other cases, ie the Ultralisk being stopped dead in its tracks by Thor fire, is obviously (in Blizz's eyes) a problem. I'd say scrapping the ability (which was only used vs. Ultras and Immortals TO BEGIN WITH) would be the way to go, since it creates more problems than it solves.

This isn't the biggest issue with SC2 gameplay... but looking over the most recent patch notes (the FULL version), I was reminded how much this inelegant design bugs the hell outta me. [/vent]

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This just in... Banshees in WC3 cannot mind control heroes. :rolleyes:

You're nitpicking over small details which can be explained easily by
1) Ret Con Lore
2) Balance
3) Simplicity

i.e. The force field example, the roach/infestor issue is just a wide blanketing thing...All ground units. It was obviously made as a design choice to offer protoss players some tactical ability on ramps.

The ultralisk issue is a bit gimmicky, but they are trying to balance a unit and it just sucked ass last game.

Your argument that nukes are purchased and are therefore units is a horrible and unsound argument. I stopped reading when I saw that. Yes..immortal shields do not work against kiloton payload nuclear warheads or a ball of radiological death and energy....Go figure?
Jesus if you want consistency, go back to WarCraft 1. Look obviously some of the things are not consistent and that's poor design from the get go, but then we'd be left with a blanket of vanilla units.
Like others have said, Marauders don't slow massive units. Vikings can shoot at Collussi in Flight mode. The Sun will rise up tommorow, except in Japan and that part of the hemisphere. ;)

I'll agree with you on half of this.

First of all, forcefields. Burrowed units couldn't move under buildings, and now they can't move under forcefields. As mentioned before, same restrictions as ground units. If you want to argue practicality, you might want to argue the Supply Depot case first. :P

As for Ultras, it makes more sense if you consider it an effect of the Ultra, rather than the effect of a spell. Is there any way to justify that X ability works on all Y units, except Z? Yes, when Z has Q ability that stops all X-type abilities from working on it.
Of course, that's probably opening up a whole new can of worms, since Ultras, I believe, can still be stopped by fungal growth, so I reluctantly have to agree with you, since there seems to be little consistency as to what exactly constitutes a X-type ability.

As per Immortals and PDD, I have no problems separating 'attack' from 'ability'.
...though I have no idea why the Broodlord's attack isn't considered a projectile.

Now, for Infested Terran, I am going to fully and whole-heartedly disagree with you. Just like Ultras (though that is very fuzzy and not well defined), you have to consider it from the opposite angle. Rather than "Infestors can only cast Infested Terran while burrowed," think of it "Infested Terran can be cast while burrowed." What's the difference? Nothing but the language. It is the same result. Just like in the Dark Swarm example, you could list the units that are not effected, or you could point out what sets them apart. It is a little fuzzier, since you don't have a group of units to point out what is being set apart. But think of it, not as an exception by the Infestor, but as a function of the ability. If you look at it from the opposite angle, it becomes a little clearer.

Oh, and Thor's cannons suck.

This reminds me allot of how Magic the Gathering cards are put together.

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Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur

This reminds me allot of how Magic the Gathering cards are put together.

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Shit I used to play that stuff in the day...sold my entire collection after awhile.
Yeah but official MTG League rules state what card sets can actually be used in tournaments....so "balancing" the game on an official level is easy...

Make a new collection and say Collection X,Z,Y and so and so from predate are invalid. I know the general are always in but they don't have anything special.

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Originally Posted by hyde

This just in... Banshees in WC3 cannot mind control heroes. :rolleyes:

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This just in... WC3 is a gimmickfest of a game, and, all its deserved accolades notwithstanding, is rightfully reviled for this reason by many fans of solid RTS design.

Mountain Giants. They're tanks because they FORCE enemy units to attack them when you press a button. Do I really need to say more?

(hint: there's a reason giving Ultralisks or Thors 'Taunt' was never on the table.)

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i.e. The force field example, the roach/infestor issue is just a wide blanketing thing...All ground units. It was obviously made as a design choice to offer protoss players some tactical ability on ramps.

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Offer Protoss players some tactical ability on ramps?

Protoss players have nothing BUT tactical ability on ramps. Where have you been? They've had FF since forever, and have been abusing it to hell and back, ESPECIALLY vs. Zerg, since day 1. They decidedly did not need 'more.'

You get more traction with the "blanket" argument, but not by much. "All ground units." Need I remind you of the existence of Massive units, which run contrary to this claim?

So it's already "all ground non-Massive units. Unless they're Hallucinated, then it's OK!" Ground units and burrowed units being as different as they are on top of that, there's no blanket here to speak of.

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The ultralisk issue is a bit gimmicky, but they are trying to balance a unit and it just sucked ass last game.

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I understand that most of these are based on balance concerns. I said as much in the OP. That doesn't mean I can't (or we shouldn't) point them out as shoddy game design. It's not like this game was announced last week.

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Your argument that nukes are purchased and are therefore units is a horrible and unsound argument. I stopped reading when I saw that.

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I didn't say that nukes ARE units, I said they're "like units in at least some senses." As in, they are not a cut and dried ability, which gives them plenty of leeway as far as game mechanics are concerned. Which mechanics apply to them could have gone either way -- Reavers dealt damage with magic missiles too, but those magic missiles took armor into account.

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Jesus if you want consistency, go back to WarCraft 1. Look obviously some of the things are not consistent and that's poor design from the get go, but then we'd be left with a blanket of vanilla units.

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If you'd read more closely, you'd know that I don't want identical copy paste units. I want consistent mechanics. There's a difference. If the game says "Massive units destroy Force Fields" -- FINE! But if it then says, "Except Thors," that's not fine. The game gives us no reason to think Thors are in any way special and should be treated differently in regard to Force Fields.

That's the level of inelegance I'm arguing against here.

http://www.sc2pod.com/img/news/leak_ultralisk.jpg

From a panel hosted by Blizz, where they went on about the greatness that is intuitiveness in gaming. There's nothing intuitive about a Thor not breaking Force Fields when all other massive units do.

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Like others have said, Marauders don't slow massive units. Vikings can shoot at Collussi in Flight mode. The Sun will rise up tommorow, except in Japan and that part of the hemisphere. ;)

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I don't know how it is you could know what others said and not know my response to them saying it! Quoting myself here: "As a rule I think that a mechanic/trait works much better if it is a trait of that UNIT, and not a "counter-trait" of whatever should be affecting that unit. Colossus being hit by AtA attacks because it is Tall is fine. Fungal Growth (fake example) working on everything BUT Thors, for no reason other than that's what it reads on the tooltip, is NOT fine."

Colossus being hit by air units is a characteristic of the unit. It's (fairly) intuitive, it makes visual sense. Most of all, it actually feels like game design is PROGRESSING because we've come up with the idea of new unit types (ones that can be hit by both ground and air attacks) that didn't exist before. Colossus and only Colossus not being affected by Random Ability X due to balance reasons is not the same. It is a regression in terms of game design.

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Originally Posted by MulletBen

First of all, forcefields. Burrowed units couldn't move under buildings, and now they can't move under forcefields. As mentioned before, same restrictions as ground units. If you want to argue practicality, you might want to argue the Supply Depot case first. :P

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As I replied to hyde, I don't think that the 'total blanket' argument holds up because of the fact that Massive units already laugh in the face of this mechanic. That said, you're absolutely right to bring up units' inability to burrow move underneath buildings. I think the main problem here is visual soup.

If you order units underneath an above-ground building like the Command Center, you won't be able to (easily) see/select them afterwards, and that's bad. Likewise, if you order units to pass under a submerged Supply Depot... well, first of all, they're tunneling through the Depot? :confused: Second, how would that look? The Depot is unharmed, yet there's spines moving on the top of it? :p

In the same way as air units cannot fly high enough into orbit so that they can't be attacked due to obvious complications that would ensue (space combat off-screen??), burrowed units being unable to pass under buildings is simply an accepted limitation. As long as it's consistent.

The reason we're not seeing completely eye-to-eye is that while you're approaching burrowed movement as "ground movement that happens to be cloaked," when I wrote the OP I approached it as "special movement, parallel to ground and flying but different from each." I THINK Blizz is leaning toward my interpretation... an older interview states:

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We are also discussing the possibility of having some type of visual that may imply an Infestor is moving while burrowed nearby, similar to how cloaked/stealth units currently move above ground.

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I'm not sure if that's happened or not yet, but in either case, it shows that Burrow-move is not directly analogous to ground units Cloaking in Blizz's eyes. So with that in mind, I prefer to approach it not as "ground movement with benefits" but rather a different form of transportation altogether, sharing some similarities with ground movement. And from that perspective, a previously existing blanket has, indeed, been disturbed! :)

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As for Ultras, it makes more sense if you consider it an effect of the Ultra, rather than the effect of a spell. Is there any way to justify that X ability works on all Y units, except Z? Yes, when Z has Q ability that stops all X-type abilities from working on it.
Of course, that's probably opening up a whole new can of worms, since Ultras, I believe, can still be stopped by fungal growth, so I reluctantly have to agree with you, since there seems to be little consistency as to what exactly constitutes a X-type ability.

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Actually they can't be stopped by Fungal Growth. And I totally agree with your approach here, as long as we look at things from the Ultra's POV -- ie, the Ultra is the ultimate battering ram, the Zerg version of the Juggernaut, unable to be stopped or moved... well, sure! But then what about the fact that it can't be affected by Neural Parasite? Where did THAT come from?!

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Now, for Infested Terran, I am going to fully and whole-heartedly disagree with you. Just like Ultras (though that is very fuzzy and not well defined), you have to consider it from the opposite angle. Rather than "Infestors can only cast Infested Terran while burrowed," think of it "Infested Terran can be cast while burrowed." What's the difference? Nothing but the language. It is the same result. Just like in the Dark Swarm example, you could list the units that are not effected, or you could point out what sets them apart. It is a little fuzzier, since you don't have a group of units to point out what is being set apart. But think of it, not as an exception by the Infestor, but as a function of the ability. If you look at it from the opposite angle, it becomes a little clearer.

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Well, you have to understand that even as I say this, I am simultaneously EXCITED that the Zerg have got more harassment options opened up to them other than the predictable, stale Muta. It's not that I don't want Infested Terrans (or Infestors) to be awesome, it's that I want them to be awesome in a way that is also as elegant as possible.

This just ain't it! I'm not saying that it's better that we take away their ability to cast IT from underground... what I AM saying is that Blizzard still haven't hit the sweet spot and need to keep looking and looking. This is a better hold over than what we had, but we're not out of the woods.

I agree that impending burrowed movement now from forcefield is lame.

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As the game nears release, we've seen an influx of more and more gimmick design decisions taking over the game.

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I think your term "gimmick design decisions" is somewhat inaccurate. I think a more accurate term would be "Obvious Rule Patch." If for no other reason than the fact that I wrote that trope ;)

For example, "So, you're a game developer, and it's two weeks from shipping your next great game. Then one of your testers comes to you with a horrifically game-breaking scenario, a way for a player to game the rules so that their powers spiral out of control and automatically win without a fight. And the rule interaction is very complicated; you can't just tweak a few things to bring this back into balance. In order to truly fix the problem, you would need to rebuild a number of rules, test those rules and so forth... and miss your ship deadline. What do you do?"

In essence, this is what Blizzard has now. Take the whole Brood Lord shots aren't intercepted by the Defense Drone. If you allow BLs to be intercepted, then you effectively make the Terrans almost effectively immune to BLs. Defense drones also intercept Corruptor and Mutalisk shots, which makes it somewhat difficult for Zerg air to deal with this. Add the Viking range to that, and you have a potential game breaking problem.

At the same time, Defense Drone is reasonably strong but not imbalanced against other kinds of attacks.

If you want to avoid the Obvious Rule Patch, you only have 2 choices:

1: Remove Defense Drone.

2: Accept the potential game-breaker.

The ORP gives you a viable third option: make an exception, just in this case.

Essentially, what has happened is that Blizzard is at the point where they must take the path of least resistance. They don't have the time anymore to be careful and subtle. They have to ship, and ship soon. They can't do things that will affect dozens of other units (like change Viking range). So when a balance problem comes up, the only means they have to fix the problem is to make the smallest possible change that fixes that particular problem without affecting other things.

In any case, there are a small number of things on your list that don't quite fit:

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Force Fields only impede ground movement... except Burrowed Roaches and Infestors. (why not stop air units from flying overhead, while we're at it?)

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There are only two kinds of movement: ground and air. "Burrowed" movement is simply no different than cloaked ground unit movement.

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Immortals drop all damage over 10 to 10... except from Nukes and Yamato Cannons.

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Hardened Shields is an armor-like effect. Armor does not work on "spells"; it never has.

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Originally Posted by pure.Wasted

Force Fields only impede ground movement... except Burrowed Roaches and Infestors. ([/i]why not stop air units from flying overhead, while we're at it?)

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Roaches no longer can move under Force Fields.

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Originally Posted by pure.Wasted

Immortals drop all damage over 10 to 10... except from Nukes and Yamato Cannons.

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And Thor's 250-mm Cannons.

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Originally Posted by pure.Wasted

Point Defense Drone blocks ranged attacks with visible projectiles... except the Brood Lord's. Oh, and doesn't stop ranged ABILITIES with visible projectiles, although that makes no sense either (Yamato Cannon different from laser how? EMP shot different from bullet how?)

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Yamato is a nuclear explosion.
EMP will most likely explode receiving shot from PDD. Of course, the place of explosion will make huge difference.

Anyway, I agree with you. Spell system in SC2 is probably it's biggest letdown. Don't know if it's really biggest, but it sure is LARGE.
And energy upgrades, which instead of increasing overall limit of mana increase it's starting amount - just SUCKS.

^
Starting mana of spellcasters mattered more than having more mana in the case of StarCraft.

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

I think your term "gimmick design decisions" is somewhat inaccurate. I think a more accurate term would be "Obvious Rule Patch." If for no other reason than the fact that I wrote that trope ;)

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Sir, I am duly impressed. Obvious Rule Patch it is!

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There are only two kinds of movement: ground and air. "Burrowed" movement is simply no different than cloaked ground unit movement.

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I attempted to reason my way out of this one in my latest wall of text (jury's still out on whether I succeeded). Cloaked ground unit movement is one interpretation of Burrow move. However, Blizzard's decision not to immediately copy/paste all of the properties of cloak unto burrow move by default, when burrow move was originally unveiled, suggests to me that the two are not fundamentally identical -- in fact may not even be identical to this day, if there are still no indications of burrow moving units to the naked eye.

Furthermore it simply seems likely and reasonable to expect burrow to factor more heavily into Zerg play as the franchise develops past SC2, and more differences between it and regular Cloak to crop up. In light of these factors, I did approach it as a unique mode of travel, rather than ground+cloak.

It's good enough for me, but if that holds up for others is, I suppose, still up for grabs. ;)

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Originally Posted by flabortast

^
Starting mana of spellcasters mattered more than having more mana in the case of StarCraft.

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Sure of that? Counter-evidence - psi-storm. Overall amount of Storms possible to cast matters much more always.

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Originally Posted by Kknewkles

Sure of that? Counter-evidence - psi-storm. Overall amount of Storms possible to cast matters much more always.

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Because players don't make their templars wait to gain more energy. Their usage is mostly reinforcing armies. With the new upgrade, HTs are no longer useless off the gateway, They can cast a storm instantly, instantly turning a battle into their favor.

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Originally Posted by flabortast

Because players don't make their templars wait to gain more energy. Their usage is mostly reinforcing armies. With the new upgrade, HTs are no longer useless off the gateway, They can cast a storm instantly, instantly turning a battle into their favor.

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Option to train some HT beforehand, which have 3 Storms is better than warping one HT for one Storm, even instant.
First option defines much more strategical foresight than just warping additional HTs. And it may even be somewhat unbalanced, when your P opponent just summons a few HTs to his expo and rapes your army.

With the fast pace of Starcraft, the latter will happen more often than the former. Didn't the new energy upgrade increase energy regeneration also?

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Originally Posted by pure.Wasted

Infestor's Neural Parasite works on all ground targets... except Ultralisks.

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i think it doesn't works cuz every unit need to say that thing with assimilation and the ultralisk need to learn first the letters to say it :))


really my game isn't influenced too much from those changes,but at high levels i think they have bad influence on the game

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There are only two kinds of movement: ground and air. "Burrowed" movement is simply no different than cloaked ground unit movement.

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Really? I think burrowed movement is a whole kind of movement in its own. Take example the fact that initially without modifications it was able to move under forcefield. This already proved that it was a different kind of movement from regular ground. Take the second fact that normal ground units suffer from collision with each other while they walk perfectly fine over burrowed units. You WILL notice in all custom maps that jumping is useless because you can't jump over other units unless you temporarily morph your ground unit into an air unit. This proves that underground movement is a different kind in its own because of the fact that it moves under other units. I don't really know why they removed the ability to burrow under forcefields. FF is already in itself a powerful ability that MUST be researched for massive advantage. Burrowing itself? It already hardly stacks up to FF in the "benefits of researching it" list. Not only that, don't you THEN have to research the ability to move underground?

Ridiculous IMO.

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Originally Posted by flabortast

With the fast pace of Starcraft, the latter will happen more often than the former.

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Now it will have to happen more often.

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Originally Posted by flabortast

Didn't the new energy upgrade increase energy regeneration also?

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Nope.

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Originally Posted by pure.Wasted

Infestor's Neural Parasite works on all ground targets... except Ultralisks.

Thor's stun works on all ground targets... except Ultralisks.

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Meh, Blizzard has never been sure what to do with the Ultra. I agree they needed to do a better job with this unit.

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Infestor can't cast spells while Burrowed... except Infested Terrans.

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I say let them cast all spells while Burrowed, makes them more usefu IMO.

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Force Fields only impede ground movement... except Burrowed Roaches and Infestors. (why not stop air units from flying overhead, while we're at it?)

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I personally don't get that either. I get why burrowed units can't move under buildings, much like Burrow is the Zerg answer to Cloaking, burrowed movement is likewise the same. I guess the in-universe answer has to do with the same sort of energy fields they handwaved Pylons projecting into the ground, but in-game I don't get why they did this.

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Hallucinated units can do anything (short of dealing damage or using abilities) their "real" counterparts can do... except breaking Force Fields. (if they have no 'substance' to break through something, then enemy units should be able to walk through hallucinations -- obviously they cannot)

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It makes perfect sense, Hallucinations are just projected energy illusions, they exist but have no real mass and thus cannot break Force Fields. Frankly I don't get what your point with this one. Are you saying units should be able to walk through Hallucinations? Or they that they should be able to break Force Fields? Either way I think it'd be lame.

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Immortals drop all damage over 10 to 10... except from Nukes and Yamato Cannons.

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Good, because frankly no matter how hard your shields are there's no way you're taking only ten damage from a Nuke.

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Point Defense Drone blocks ranged attacks with visible projectiles... except the Brood Lord's. Oh, and doesn't stop ranged ABILITIES with visible projectiles, although that makes no sense either (Yamato Cannon different from laser how? EMP shot different from bullet how?)

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Laser - a short-wave blast of energy. Yamato Cannon - a monstrous blast of energy. Seriously, you can't compare Stalker blasts to a Yamato Cannon, there's no way. As for the EMP, that's a valid point.

I agree the gimmicky units are a bit irritating, but a lot of this sounds like nitpicking. Game balance should always come first, there'll be time to handwave the logic behind it later. Like Ultras being immune to stun and NP, if we asked Blizzard they'd toss out "oh, uh, they're higher-level Zerg units so they're harder to control by lesser strains, and uh, they're bigger and have thicker hides so the Thor's cannons don't stun it". It makes sense in-universe sort of, but ultimately that's a trivial thing because if the game is balanced for it, good.

So yeah, you make some good points but when it comes to gameplay balance vs in-universe logic, gameplay balance wins every time, and as far as I'm concerned it's more important the gameplay be balance than the logic behind the action making sense. Why do Stalkers need to take the time to recharge their Blink, why do Overlords no longer detect, why do Zealots only charge forward when close to an enemy? In-universe there's no explanation for either, especially the latter. Gameplay-wise it makes the game better and more balanced.

SC1 - why do Reavers need to wait to fire when exiting a Shuttle and not other units? Why do some spells like Feedback and Lockdown fire off one right after the other while spells like Psionic Storm and Irradiate have a cooldown? Why can't burrowed Lurkers who leave holes the size of a Pylon be seen by ground units? Why do High Templar and Hydralisks take up twice the space of a Marine in transports despite being roughly the same size? Why do only some Terran buildings lift off and not others? Why are the Goliath's missiles treated as two attacks while the Wraith's aren't? In-universe, who knows? In-gameplay: balance.

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Take example the fact that initially without modifications it was able to move under forcefield. This already proved that it was a different kind of movement from regular ground.

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Or, you can look at it like this. Before, Force Fields were considered units as far as collision is concerned. Burrow removes a unit's collision with other units. Now, Force Field is considered a building. Burrow does not remove a unit's collision with other buildings.

Either one is a perfectly valid choice. It doesn't require special movement modes or anything. And since it affects all burrowed units equally, I submit that it still doesn't belong on this list.

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SC1 - why do Reavers need to wait to fire when exiting a Shuttle and not other units?

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No, it is all units. It's just that the Reaver has the longest cooldown of a dropped unit (you can't drop Sieged Tanks). Nobody's going to notice the quarter second or so that Marines spend not firing.

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It makes perfect sense, Hallucinations are just projected energy illusions, they exist but have no real mass and thus cannot break Force Fields.

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Why? They are in fact "units". They have the "Massive" keyword. And "units" that have the "Massive" keyword are supposed to be able to break Force Fields; that's the rule on Force Fields. If these can't, then you have an Obvious Rule Patch, which is a very inelegant solution to a problem. It's a rule that sticks out, rather than a more natural kind of rule.

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but when it comes to gameplay balance vs in-universe logic

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This isn't a lore vs. balance discussion. This is about the actual gameplay of units. It's about consistency; not having rules that say, "except for unit X" in them.

Basically, what he's saying

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Originally Posted by pure.Wasted

But why the mind control? The Immortal doesn't get a Mind Control clause in its contract.

There's no such way to resolve "Neural Parasite doesn't work on Ultralisks." There's absolutely nothing that is unique to Ultralisks that is not shared by other units, at the VERY least other Massive units.

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You are correct on most of your points. I have highlighted the above 2 to give some reason as to why these exceptions and non-exceptions may exist from plain observation. Disclaimer: I am not claiming to be right or wrong, I'm just making and observation.

Here goes: The Ultralisk, as a massive unit, is fairly understandably immune to neural parasite given its combination of size, speed and armor creating a high likelihood of parasite failures, whether by complete miss of the Ultra altogether or perhaps just missing the target area.

First question: why then are other massive units susceptible? Answer: lack of speed of Colossi and Thors makes target area much easier to hit and hit accurately.

Secondary question: Why aren't mech units with speed and/or armor exempted? Answer: most of the mech units have a living pilot whose cockpit is easily targetable. Thus Immortals should be susceptible. Full tech units such as the Colossus or Sentry are susceptible if and only if we assume a protoss with knowledge of the unit's functionality has been parasited previously. This would pass the knowledge of how to control these units to the Zerg.

Secondary Question #2: What of protoss shields and the Immortal's hardened shields? It is equally assumable that the knowledge, similarly obtained, of how to psionically fool the protoss shields and allow the parasite passage exists within the Zerg, inclusive of how to fire without activating the hardened shields.

Thus, while we may find some exceptions mechanicaly unsound (to which I agree), they can be seen to fit the lore and/or racial/unit attributes and must be permitted. There are others, such as the burrowing issue, that are worked out for other reasons. Some may not be so easily described. Even those we try to describe can only be reasoned to a point of tolerance, acceptance be damned.

Edit: The burrowing issue seems to be a balance of mechanics. This is also tolerable, but not always acceptable.

Most of the things the poster said were due to balance issues and I completely agree that there should be consistent mechanics otherwise the game loses its sense of legitimacy.

Without the consistency it starts to feel like a movie with a bad plot and leaves a bad taste in your mouth. Like when a person uses lock picking skills to break into a building, but earlier in the movie they were trapped in a locked room.

That said most changes were needed. Ultralisks were basically useless against Infestors because they would get gooed (sorry i don't know the name) and die before they could move again, like 10 Ultralisks would lose to 10 hydras if there were a couple Infestors around.

I agree with the OP. But, if they are gonna keep these, to boost elegance, they can at least animate the exceptions.

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Originally Posted by pure.Wasted

Infestor's Neural Parasite works on all ground targets... except Ultralisks.

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They could animate the Ultralisks dodging/blocking/shrugging NP whenever someone tries.

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Thor's stun works on all ground targets... except Ultralisks.

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They could animate Ultralisks to prepare for a stun/brace for a stun.

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Infestor can't cast spells while Burrowed... except Infested Terrans.

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They could animate infested terrans unburrowing when casted burrowed.

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Force Fields only impede ground movement... except Burrowed Roaches and Infestors. (

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why not stop air units from flying overhead, while we're at it?)

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They could change the forcefield model to show that it does not touch the ground.

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Hallucinated units can do anything (short of dealing damage or using abilities) their "real" counterparts can do... except breaking Force Fields. (

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if they have no 'substance' to break through something, then enemy units should be able to walk through hallucinations -- obviously they cannot)

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Well this, I see this as pretty elegant. You can hallucinate a wall and hallucinate that you cant go past that wall. Same thing. The units don't know that the hallucinations are hallucinations.

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Immortals drop all damage over 10 to 10... except from Nukes and Yamato Cannons.

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They could animate shields failing or overloading in these situations.

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Point Defense Drone blocks ranged attacks with visible projectiles... except the Brood Lord's. Oh, and doesn't stop ranged ABILITIES with visible projectiles, although that makes no sense either (Yamato Cannon different from laser how? EMP shot different from bullet how?)

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Lol, this is a hard one. They can animate PDD to malfunction under some attacks, and for other attacks try to block but fail/miss to do so.

They just have to keep our brain from going "woah why?".

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

No, it is all units. It's just that the Reaver has the longest cooldown of a dropped unit (you can't drop Sieged Tanks). Nobody's going to notice the quarter second or so that Marines spend not firing.

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Not that I've read. Reavers noticably wait several seconds when they exit a transport. This isn't cooldown, cooldown is the amount of time between a unit attacking once and then attacking again. Reavers have a long cooldown, but when they fire their scarabs they fire instantly. When they exit a shuttle they wait while all other units attack as soon as they're on the ground.

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Why? They are in fact "units".

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No they aren't, they are Hallucinations, they do not exist. Hallucinations cannot break Force Fields for the same reason they cannot actually damage units and cost no supply - Hallucinations aren't really there.

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This isn't a lore vs. balance discussion. This is about the actual gameplay of units. It's about consistency; not having rules that say, "except for unit X" in them.

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Really because it seems the former, a lot of these "gimmick" complaints exist due to gameplay balance which as far as I'm concerned is the #1 priority. You could make the case that the Zealot doing full damage to an Immortal's hardened shield is a "gimmick" due to the Zealot's attack being treated as two weaker attacks therefore the HS doesn't activate against it.

Yes, gameplay balance isn't always pretty and elegant, that has been proven quite well during the last three years. But it takes priority, and frankly if the game has to have these "gimmicks" to be balanced I say too bad, get used to it.

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Without the consistency it starts to feel like a movie with a bad plot and leaves a bad taste in your mouth. Like when a person uses lock picking skills to break into a building, but earlier in the movie they were trapped in a locked room.

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Haha, excellent analogy. :)

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Originally Posted by Drake Clawfang

It makes perfect sense, Hallucinations are just projected energy illusions, they exist but have no real mass and thus cannot break Force Fields. Frankly I don't get what your point with this one. Are you saying units should be able to walk through Hallucinations? Or they that they should be able to break Force Fields? Either way I think it'd be lame.

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Yes, I am saying that one must be true, or the other. Either Hallucinations have mass, or they don't have mass. If they have mass and substance (because other units can't just walk through them; and they can't just wakl through each other) then they should break Force Fields. If they don't have mass and substance (unable to break FF) then ... you get the point.

Otherwise, Obvious Rule Patch is at work.

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Really because it seems the former, a lot of these "gimmick" complaints exist due to gameplay balance which as far as I'm concerned is the #1 priority. You could make the case that the Zealot doing full damage to an Immortal's hardened shield is a "gimmick" due to the Zealot's attack being treated as two weaker attacks therefore the HS doesn't activate against it.

Yes, gameplay balance isn't always pretty and elegant, that has been proven quite well during the last three years. But it takes priority, and frankly if the game has to have these "gimmicks" to be balanced I say too bad, get used to it.

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Drake I'm not sure where you got the idea that I'm telling Blizzard to not do what they're doing. If you'd been reading my posts carefully, I've said time and time again that I understand WHY they are doing this and in most cases at the very least accept it as a temporary solution.

But just because it turns out at the last second that Blizzard couldn't figure out a better fix for a legitimate design problem does not mean we shouldn't call them out on it.

If PDD not targeting a Brood Lord's attacks is exactly what's needed for the game to be playable at this stage... fine, we'll take that into release. But by the time Heart ships, I sincerely hope to see a redesign of the mechanic that solves this inconsistency... without sacrificing gameplay balance.

It's as simple as that.