Frustrated with Design Gimmicks
As the game nears release, we've seen an influx of more and more gimmick design decisions taking over the game. SC has always been lauded for its "simplistic" approach to designing units and abilities -- things do what you expect them to do, no more, no less. No exceptions.
And now we're getting those exceptions, in their anti-common sense... glory?
Infestor's Neural Parasite works on all ground targets... except Ultralisks.
Thor's stun works on all ground targets... except Ultralisks.
Infestor can't cast spells while Burrowed... except Infested Terrans.
Force Fields only impede ground movement... except Burrowed Roaches and Infestors. (why not stop air units from flying overhead, while we're at it?)
Hallucinated units can do anything (short of dealing damage or using abilities) their "real" counterparts can do... except breaking Force Fields. (if they have no 'substance' to break through something, then enemy units should be able to walk through hallucinations -- obviously they cannot)
Immortals drop all damage over 10 to 10... except from Nukes and Yamato Cannons.
Point Defense Drone blocks ranged attacks with visible projectiles... except the Brood Lord's. Oh, and doesn't stop ranged ABILITIES with visible projectiles, although that makes no sense either (Yamato Cannon different from laser how? EMP shot different from bullet how?)
There's absolutely nothing wrong with units doing their own thing. If every unit was just a different model attached to different numbers of stats, the game would get boring fast. But just because design is creative doesn't mean it gets a pass for being inelegant. The Void Ray functions completely differently from any other unit in the game... but it does so consistently. It doesn't act one way toward Marines and another toward Ghosts.
Some of these have easy solutions. An Immortal getting hit by Nukes is such a rare occurrence that whether the Nuke kills it or not is a very insignificant balance detail -- here, the principle of the matter easily trumps "game balance." In other cases, ie the Ultralisk being stopped dead in its tracks by Thor fire, is obviously (in Blizz's eyes) a problem. I'd say scrapping the ability (which was only used vs. Ultras and Immortals TO BEGIN WITH) would be the way to go, since it creates more problems than it solves.
This isn't the biggest issue with SC2 gameplay... but looking over the most recent patch notes (the FULL version), I was reminded how much this inelegant design bugs the hell outta me. [/vent]
Re: Frustrated with Design Gimmicks
So a boo for balance?
Also (Immortals drop all damage over 10 to 10... except from Nukes and Yamato Canons.) don't all special abilities ignore all damage reducing stats?
Re: Frustrated with Design Gimmicks
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Originally Posted by
Mandilorordo
So a boo for balance?
Do you mean to say that I don't care about balance?
That's not really true. What I don't care for is the situation Blizz has gotten themselves into, where gimmick solutions are the only ones that will WORK. If they'd figured out what to do with the Ultralisk instead of "keeping it out of nostalgia" before they actually started trying 2-3 patches ago, we wouldn't be in this mess where Ultralisks need to be immune to abilities A, Q, and Z just to not be worthless.
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Also (Immortals drop all damage over 10 to 10... except from Nukes and Yamato Canons.) don't all special abilities ignore all damage reducing stats?
"All damage reducing stats"? What other damage reducing stats are there? I wasn't aware that such a rule existed.
Re: Frustrated with Design Gimmicks
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Immortals drop all damage over 10 to 10... except from Nukes and Yamato Cannons.
This isn't a gimmick, its a mechanic. Immortals damage from abilities and damage from attacks are classified separately, just like in BW and the Warcraft series.
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Point Defense Drone blocks ranged attacks with visible projectiles... except the Brood Lord's. Oh, and doesn't stop ranged ABILITIES with visible projectiles, although that makes no sense either (Yamato Cannon different from laser how? EMP shot different from bullet how?)
This is kind of the same deal...except maybe the broodlord thing.
Overall I agree with your point, that the games mechanics should be congruent, and nothing should be sacrificed in favor of balance or lore, design the game better so lore and balance don't mess with mechanics....though the things I quoted aren't mechanically incongruent at all. Abilities are not attacks :p.
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"All damage reducing stats"? What other damage reducing stats are there? I wasn't aware that such a rule existed.
Every ability, because the damage is done differently.
Re: Frustrated with Design Gimmicks
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Originally Posted by
pure.Wasted
"All damage reducing stats"? What other damage reducing stats are there? I wasn't aware that such a rule existed.
armor
Re: Frustrated with Design Gimmicks
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Originally Posted by
newcomplex
This isn't a gimmick, its a mechanic. Immortals damage from abilities and damage from attacks are classified separately, just like in BW and the Warcraft series.
"Nuke" as an ability? On the one hand, duh, yes, a Ghost has to 'cast' it the way any ability is cast. But on the other, you do buy a Nuke, which means it's like a unit in at least some senses.
In any case, it is what it is. I do have a problem with arbitrarily treating abilities different from attacks. Giving Marines an "ability" that says "Shoot Gun" that deals 20 damage to Immortals is bad game design, and I think the difference is too small to matter.
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Originally Posted by
Mandilorordo
armor
I guess if we're treating the shield mechanically as only an extension of the armor... then yes, that's true. But as I said in response to NC, I do take issue with arbitrary ability segregation. All we've done here is transferred the inelegance from one rule to another. :p
Re: Frustrated with Design Gimmicks
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"Nuke" as an ability? On the one hand, duh, yes, a Ghost has to 'cast' it the way any ability is cast. But on the other, you do buy a Nuke, which means it's like a unit in at least some senses.
It does its damage via ability.
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Giving Marines an "ability" that says "Shoot Gun" that deals 20 damage to Immortals is bad game design, and I think the difference is too small to matter.
Yes, good thing they don't do that.
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I do have a problem with arbitrarily treating abilities different from attacks.
...why? Abilities are different from attacks. They were in SC1 too.
(from a gameplay perspective. From a lore perspective, they might be the same, but I don't think you're argueing that considering most of the changes you're for would make the spells more illogical from a lore perspective)
Re: Frustrated with Design Gimmicks
While some are no doubt due to balance, a number of these 'gimmicks' are to add a greater sense of logic to the abilities. For instance, Force Fields stop at ground level. Therefore, a burrowed unit can of course dig underneath it.
Also, with regards to Immortals and Nukes, Blizzard at one point did experiment with the idea that hardened shields managed to withstand Nukes (and possibly Yamato Cannons). However, the community at the time uniformly rejected the idea for both, gameplay balance and logic/believability reasons. As for the frequency of occurence, it's likely to be reasonably common since Immortals are a good all-around unit and Ghosts are a good choice versus Protoss.
Re: Frustrated with Design Gimmicks
These kind of things were all over SCBW.
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Dark Swarm
Cost: 100
Range: 9
Dark Swarm is created from a countless number of smaller creatures that typically cover the Defiler. The Defiler has the natural ability to launch these creatures to a projected position, creating a thick cloud of living insects that prevent any units outside from accurately targeting any units within the cloud.
The Dark Swarm covers a 6x6 matrix area and lasts approximately 60 seconds. Ground units within the cloud cannot be hit by ranged attacks from either ground or air, however this will not stop melee attacks or splash damage from affecting the units inside the Dark Swarm. Note that while ranged attacks will not affect units within the cloud, ranged attacks from units inside the cloud can still hit units outside of the cloud. Also, ranged attacks from units within the cloud will not work against other units inside of the Dark Swarm. To further clarify, listed below are a few strategies to use with Dark Swarm.
By launching a Dark Swarm over enemy ranged attack forces, defensive structures, or a projected battle area, you can give your own melee attack units (Zerglings or Ultralisks) a short period of invulnerability while attacking. A Zergling/Dark Swarm combination makes the Zergling much more valuable. A typical blockade of Bunkers or Photon Cannons can easily be overrun if they're covered with a Dark Swarm and attacked by Zerglings.
Dark Swarm can also serve as protection for your own Hydralisks from enemy ranged attacks. This is especially useful for countering fleets of Carriers or Battlecruisers or even forces of Dragoons, Marines, Goliaths, etc. One thing to watch for when using Dark Swarm on your own units is the enemy trying to sneak in to use it to their advantage. Keep your units at the edge of the cloud to get the most out of the units' attack range as well as to prevent enemy units from sneaking in. Should the enemy approach your Dark Swarm with melee attack units, do everything you can to keep them out. Once they manage to make their way in, they will be able to ravage your ranged attack units within the cloud and turn the advantage against you. If there is no way to stop an incoming melee attack group, retreat far enough so that the enemy is no longer protected by the Dark Swarm and resume the attack.
While Dark Swarm will prevent damage from ranged attacks, it will not protect from ranged special ability effects. Psionic Storm, Maelstrom, Plague, Ensnare, Irradiate, EMP Shockwave, etc. will all still be able to affect units beneath the Dark Swarm.
Terrans are especially vulnerable to Dark Swarm since every Terran unit, except for the Firebat, has a ranged attack and therefore are unable to attack any units within the cloud. A flood of Zerglings protected by a Dark Swarm can easily ravage a Terran base or force. With multiple Dark Swarms covering a large area, the Zerglings have an even greater advantage with free reign over the entire affected location. Be sure to eliminate Firebats and Siege Tanks in Siege Mode first to ensure the advantage they have with the Dark Swarm.
The Protoss, with their Zealots and Dark Templar, are better able to defend against a Dark Swarmed invasion. However, depending on the number of Protoss defenders, a flood of Zerglings protected by Dark Swarm can still be too overwhelming. Watch for Psionic Storms within the Dark Swarm, since they will still ravage hordes of Zerglings at a time. Also keep an eye out for Archons, as their attack does a small amount of splash damage even to units protected under a Dark Swarm.
Opposing Zerg broods can be difficult to use Dark Swarm against, since they can produce their own Zerglings in which case the Dark Swarm is useless. However, Dark Swarm can be used to protect your bases from Guardian/Mutalisk or Hydralisk attack but, once again, be sure to have lots of Zerglings at hand to really turn the tide of battle.
Here is a list of units that are NOT affected by Dark Swarm:
Terrans:
Firebats
Siege Tanks in Siege Mode (can still inflict splash damage)
Protoss:
Probes
Zealots
Dark Templar
Reavers (can still inflict splash damage)
Archons
Zerg:
Drones
Zerglings
Lurkers (can inflict both direct and splash damage)
Ultralisks
Broodlings
Infested Terrans (can inflict both direct and splash damage)
When facing these units, it is usually not worth it to use the Dark Swarm unless you have the numbers to overwhelm them.
One thing to note is that Dark Swarm does not affect buildings in any way or form. Should they be covered in a Dark Swarm, they will NOT be protected from ranged attack either from units inside or outside the cloud, they will take damage as normal.
Re: Frustrated with Design Gimmicks
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Originally Posted by
ArcherofAiur
These kind of things were all over SCBW.
Really? I mean, specifically the newfound mechanic of "works on everything x this one unit"
