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Re: Hybrids and insfestations
Yeah, I'm tired of all this once again.
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PS: You guys shouldn't get the wrong idea. Me & Pandonetho are tight & chat over MSN all the time. Nothing wrong with a little hardcore debating. :P
This. Although we seem to get totally worked up, we're still tight.
Back on topic: I wonder if we'll see Gestalt Zero in the campaign as an easter egg of any sort. It'd be pretty neat I think. He could kind of be like Raynor, since he no longer works for the Dominion and is free. But then Raynor already has Tosh.
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Re: Hybrids and insfestations
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
moderators shouldn't post insulting pictures!
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Re: Hybrids and insfestations
Good lord Protoss fanbois saying the Protoss are unbeatable. I can bet you that New Gettysburg Cinematics for SC2 will show Kerrigan kill some Zealots and Protoss Fanboys will still say it is not accurate.
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Re: Hybrids and insfestations
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Originally Posted by
flabortast
I can bet you that New Gettysburg Cinematics for SC2 will show Kerrigan kill some Zealots
You're on!!! :D
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Originally Posted by
flabortast
Protoss Fanboys will still say it is not accurate.
I will have to agree, but I don't believe it will happen. :D
But if it happens - I'll agree.
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Re: Hybrids and insfestations
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Originally Posted by
flabortast
Good lord Protoss fanbois saying the Protoss are unbeatable. I can bet you that New Gettysburg Cinematics for SC2 will show Kerrigan kill some Zealots and Protoss Fanboys will still say it is not accurate.
If you care about stablished lore, it's not possible in hand to hand combat. If they got shot, that's another story. But 3 Zealots at 5m distance? You're dead.
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Re: Hybrids and insfestations
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Originally Posted by
deadlock
moderators shouldn't post insulting pictures!
Let me play you a sad song on the world's smallest violin:
http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/s...est-violin.jpg
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Originally Posted by
Alex06
Kerrigan, infested, still seems to be as strong as a human. She retains her human body shape. Yet, she and Zeratul have about the same strength, and Kerrigan is a woman! (I don't care if you think it's sexist, it's true that men have higher muscular potential than women...Well, in any case, well-built men have higher muscle power than women who look like beauty queens! :P) So yes, it is VERY plausible for a human to be able to defeat a Protoss. A normal one? Maybe not, but a cybernetically and genetically enhanced human (ex: Crysis Nanosuit meets a harshly trained, genetically enhanced human). Add psionics to that, and it is plausible.
1) Kerrigan ripped off a steel door in Queen of Blades, so there's no way any comparisons to her & humans can be made.
2) Kerrigan's arms aren't as dangerous as her wings.
3) There's alot more to strength than muscle mass - such as the amount of motor units that can be recruited.
4) Kerrigan & Zeratul increase their strength with psionics, and they're both way more powerful than any humans.
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Now, Zero didn't defeat them singlehandedly, but it seems plausible that he could defeat a Zealot singlehandedly, if he managed to avoid its psionic blades (like any other living sentient being in StarCraft). Plus, don't forget that Zero also has armor, not just the zealots! And he's not just a human, he seems more like a Protoss mentally.
Yes, Zero could shoot a Zealot and kill it by sneaking up on it via cloak or something. But in a direct 1v1 it would lose, for reasons I already mentioned:
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
I doubt that. It's part human, which makes it weak. You can give it Protoss nerve cords, but the brain is still largely human. And can it turn into energy? Use precognition? Not to mention the fact that it's as small as a human and doesn't have the power of a horse in each of its muscle fibers like a regular Protoss.
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Also, the mission really did took place in a city on Tarsonis, not in space. The Sons of Korhal just routed the Protoss from the surface, who then retreated from Tarsonis.
As I've been saying for the last page, the Protoss were still there after that mission. And they were on the ground fighting. It's in the post-mission text for the New Gettysburg mission.
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Re: Hybrids and insfestations
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
Let me play you a sad song on the world's smallest violin:
http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/s...est-violin.jpg
1) Kerrigan ripped off a steel door in Queen of Blades, so there's no way any comparisons to her & humans can be made.
2) Kerrigan's arms aren't as dangerous as her wings.
3) There's alot more to strength than muscle mass - such as the amount of motor units that can be recruited.
4) Kerrigan & Zeratul increase their strength with psionics, and they're both way more powerful than any humans.
Yes, Zero could shoot a Zealot and kill it by sneaking up on it via cloak or something. But in a direct 1v1 it would lose, for reasons I already mentioned:
As I've been saying for the last page, the
Protoss were still there after that mission. And they were on the ground fighting. It's in the post-mission text for the New Gettysburg mission.
Ah I see, well, it's been a long time since I played that mission so forgive me on that...And I haven't read more than the first 2 pages. :P
as for Zero, I don't recall it being specified whether he was a human or Protoss at first or if he was born as a Protoss/Terran Hybrid directly and was made to mature quickly...At the end of the manga story, he speaks like a Protoss, his mentality seems like that of a Protoss. That's what I meant to say.
EDIT: Just checked, Zero is human, he just utters a Protoss saying in rememberance to Muadun (he probably read his mind and that's how he knew it). Though oddly, he has Protoss skin and eyes...Genetic enhancements? If so, who's to say he couldn't have gotten genetic enhancements for his muscles? Kerrigan has genetic enhancements for her muscle and has strong psionics and she can fight other Protoss fist-to-fist. I say Zero has the potential to be that strong. I'm not sure he is strong enough, but he can still become just as strong. That's what I've been saying.
And I'm not sure I understand what you meant by this:
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There's alot more to strength than muscle mass - such as the amount of motor units that can be recruited.
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Re: Hybrids and insfestations
I think Muadun invaded his mind or something. :4
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Re: Hybrids and insfestations
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
I think Muadun invaded his mind or something. :4
Similiarly to Zamara?
That does seem plausible.
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Re: Hybrids and insfestations
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
The wiki isn't really a valid source for quoting. Here's what it says in the actual game after the mission:
You do know Liberty's Crusade went into more detail about that, right?
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
Where's the proof that they failed. Several Confederate people survived, like Handy Anderson, or a bunch of the characters from SC:G Nova.
I'm a little unclear about who failed here -- SOK? Protoss?, but all these people were saved due to Mengsk. (StarCraft: Ghost: Nova and Liberty's Crusade made that clear.) Those Old Family heirs seen in Ghost Academy 2 had evacuated Tarsonis months before its fall.
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Liberty's Crusade basically canonized the bonus SC mission where Tassadar introduced himself and helped the Sons of Korhal fight Zerg.
There wasn't even an implied alliance there, just a common enemy. I've read Liberty's Crusade several times.
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
Muadun broke his neural inhibitor, so Kerrigan is not more powerful than him if that's what you're saying.
???
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If the Tal'Darim detected a shielded Rosemary so easily in Shadow Hunters
Dahl wasn't cloaked. The "shielding" that Zamara did to her simply prevented them from reading her mind. They could still see her. Dahl walked right past them without noticing them because the Tal'darim were cloaked!
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and Colin was detected so easily by Zerg and that Wrangler
Colin was easily detected by zerg, yes... but not the wrangler. Colin was hiding in another room and the wrangler couldn't even sense him until the wrangler tortured him with his psi-screen.
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As for the painting, I contend that Kerrigan had hideous amounts of backup instead of running away & cloaking.
That's not the way the battle was described. Heck, Raynor complained (in the game itself) that she had "no backup".
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Re: Hybrids and insfestations
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
Uhm, are you talking to me? If so, you totally misread the example.
Let me break it down for everybody:
Pandonetho first makes the claim that the Protoss somehow failed in their objectives on Tarsonis because of Kerrigan, even though they were fighting Zerg both before & after Kerrigan came by.
I ask him to prove how they failed in their objectives (or even how he knows what those objectives are).
He wants me to prove that the Protoss destroyed the primary hive that they were heading for.
I read it the opposite way...
Pandetheno: Bullshit claim (as in "thats a bullshit claim gradius")
Gradius: Prove it (it being that the claim is bullshit)
Pandetheno NO U: (which as you said, makes sense, as the burdern of proof should fall on the person who presetned it.
but ok now I get it.
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Re: Hybrids and insfestations
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
you're so lame
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Re: Hybrids and insfestations
Disclaimer: Since Gradius gets to post his version of the recap, I think it's only fair I post my version of the recap as well.
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Uhm, are you talking to me? If so, you totally misread the example.
Let me break it down for everybody:
Pandonetho first makes the claim that the Protoss somehow failed in their objectives on Tarsonis because of Kerrigan, even though they were fighting Zerg both before & after Kerrigan came by.
I ask him to prove how they failed in their objectives (or even how he knows what those objectives are).
He wants me to prove that the Protoss destroyed the primary hive that they were heading for.
I read it the opposite way...
Pandetheno: Bullshit claim (as in "thats a bullshit claim gradius")
Gradius: Prove it (it being that the claim is bullshit)
Pandetheno NO U: (which as you said, makes sense, as the burdern of proof should fall on the person who presetned it.
but ok now I get it.
Let me elaborate more on that recap that Gradius posted, which didn't quite cover every detail.
Basically I said the objectives of the Protoss were to combat the Zerg at the primary hive.
Kerrigan intercepted them (as said in both the game and Liberty's Crusade, where Mengsk says that if the Zerg are fighting the Protoss, it means the Zerg are not killing the Confederates, so he sends Kerrigan to intercept the Protoss).
She did exactly this, and she even destroyed the Protoss forces (as in game it says to Destroy the Protoss forces as an objective, while not allowing a single Zerg structure to die).
So this is what happens. And basically I say they failed in destroying the Zerg hive. I don't see how I can prove something that's already proven and implied. Now it lies to Gradius to prove his claim that "just because they didn't destroy the Zerg in that mission doesn't mean they didn't destroy them after."
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Gradius:
So what was that? Not destroying the hive? There's no proof that they didn't.
Then he mentions that there were still Protoss fighting the Zerg on the planet after Mengsk had disengaged.
Personally though, I don't see how Protoss being left on the planet implies anything, other than the fact that they were still combating Zerg. Nothing that I'm aware of implies that they finished the destruction of the Zerg Hive, or were even winning in any of their battles because they withdrew after anyway, and we can see that the Zerg were still a presence on the planet as when the UED went to claim the disruptor, but only having neutralized at least 4 Zerg hives first before being able to reach it.
As well, I don't really see why I have to prove that the Protoss were aiming to destroy the Zerg hive because the game itself says they were heading on a direct course to the primary Zerg hive. I don't know what else that would imply other than the implication that the Protoss were aiming to attack the Zerg. But, if I'm still being asked to prove that the Toss were indeed aiming to attack the Zerg at the primary hive then well I give up, because I don't see what evidence there is to suggest they weren't going to attack the primary Zerg hive.
And Kimera pointed out above that everyone who Gradius mentioned got away were either saved by the SoK (meaning, not the Protoss) or escaped months prior to Tarsonis's destruction.
No hard feelings Grad ;p just defending myself here.
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Re: Hybrids and insfestations
1) I've already proven that Kerrigan did not intercept any Protoss with a direct quote from Liberty's Crusade. It's kind of annoying to just have this ignored.
2) The Protoss left after most humans were evacuated - this doesn't mean they "lost the battle" but that they left after their purpose was achieved. Otherwise they would have just glassed the planet like all other times.
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Originally Posted by
Kimera757
You do know Liberty's Crusade went into more detail about that, right?
Yes, and?
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I'm a little unclear about who failed here -- SOK? Protoss?, but all these people were saved due to Mengsk. (StarCraft: Ghost: Nova and Liberty's Crusade made that clear.) Those Old Family heirs seen in Ghost Academy 2 had evacuated Tarsonis months before its fall.
Protoss. They were saved by SOK yes, but might not have been saved in time if the Protoss didn't fight the Zerg.
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There wasn't even an implied alliance there, just a common enemy. I've read Liberty's Crusade several times.
Uhm, Tassadar basically introduced himself to the SoK to show his good will. Even in Queen of Blades, Raynor tells Tassadar that it wasn't right when Mengsk turned on him. An alliance doesn't have to be some huge formal agreement (like the 3 factions vs Kerrigan in Omega). I can guarantee you that it was at least an implied alliance.
...I can't really make it any clearer. You were implying that Sarah Kerrigan or Gestalt have better detection than Muadun.
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That's not the way the battle was described. Heck, Raynor complained (in the game itself) that she had "no backup".
Yeah but that was before she left (really, how can you have enough backup in that situation). She had enough backup to get the mission done so that's what matters.
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Re: Hybrids and insfestations
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
I'm not ignoring it, I'm just saying you're wrong.
That quote was from before Kerrigan went to confront the protoss. It doesn't agree with the game (old lore) or the picture (new lore).
Liberty's Crusade didn't directly confirm what happened with the battle between Kerrigan and the protoss, since neither Liberty or Raynor were there to witness it. It does not conflict with the game or the picture.
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2) The Protoss left after most humans were evacuated - this doesn't mean they "lost the battle"
They lost the Battle of New Gettysburg. Then they got beaten again, this time by the zerg.
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Uhm, Tassadar basically introduced himself to the SoK to show his good will.
He didn't team up with the SOK in Liberty's Crusade however, only in one deleted mission.
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Even in Queen of Blades, Raynor tells Tassadar that it wasn't right when Mengsk turned on him. An alliance doesn't have to be some huge formal agreement (like the 3 factions vs Kerrigan in Omega). I can guarantee you that it was at least an implied alliance.
I should dig that quote up. I'll do that soon. It does imply a bit of an alliance, actually, but it's not the same thing as the deleted mission. And here's the quote:
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Mengsk looked at the screen and said, "Interesting report while you were gone." Mike said nothing, and Mengsk continued, "Protoss ground forces pitched in to engage the Zerg were encountered. Their leader's name is Tassadar. He calls himself the High Templar and Executor of the Protoss Fleet. His flagship's name is the Gantrithor."
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...I can't really make it any clearer. You were implying that Sarah Kerrigan or Gestalt have better detection than Muadun.
I didn't imply anything about Gestalt's detection. I'm saying psionic detection is, at best, unreliable. (Furthermore, Khalai seem to be pretty bad at it.) This would make it possible for Kerrigan or any other "psychic sneaker" to sneak up on Khalai.
In fact, when Alzadar was ambushed by the Shel'na Kryhas in Shadow Hunters, he first fought Ladranix, and after an essentially tied battle, a bunch of Shel'na Kryhas (of the Khalai Caste) jumped him and beat him unconscious. These guys weren't even cloaked, they were probably just hiding in bushes. Mind-reading and psionic detection doesn't make for good detection.
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Yeah but that was before she left (really, how can you have enough backup in that situation). She had enough backup to get the mission done so that's what matters.
Raynor felt she didn't have enough backup. And in fact, she didn't, as the zerg were able to crush her limited backup. (Raynor figured she'd have to fight the zerg anyway. He was right.)
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Re: Hybrids and insfestations
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Originally Posted by
Kimera757
I'm not ignoring it, I'm just saying you're wrong.
That quote was from before Kerrigan went to confront the protoss. It doesn't agree with the game (old lore) or the picture (new lore).
Liberty's Crusade didn't directly confirm what happened with the battle between Kerrigan and the protoss, since neither Liberty or Raynor were there to witness it. It does not conflict with the game or the picture.
Yes, that's the point, that the Protoss already made planetfall in the quote before Kerrigan even got down there. So what are you saying, that a new group of Protoss went to attack and Kerrigan intercepted them? How does the new picture show that Kerrigan intercepted the Protoss? It doesn't. LC makes it clear that the Protoss were already fighting on the surface.
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They lost the Battle of New Gettysburg. Then they got beaten again, this time by the zerg.
They were still on the planet afterwards fighting, while Kerrigan's forces all died. So who exactly is the loser here? It's ridiculous to call any kind of a setback a lost battle. Where's the proof that more Protoss wouldn't have rolled into New Gettysburg and crushed Kerrigan before the Zerg did? It doesn't exist, and that's why I originally said that this is a matter of perspective (though you guys seem positive it's not, so I'm interested in hearing how you can know all this stuff).
This is patently ridiculous. None of you would ever say that Kerrigan lost the battle of New Gettysburg to the Zerg, but have no problem saying that Protoss lost to the Zerg (or hell, even acknowledging that they were fighting the Zerg while Kerrigan flew in to backstab them). In SC1 yes, the Protoss lost to the Zerg, but that part has been somewhat retconned by Queen of Blades. The book just says the Protoss disappeared once the outcome was clear (aka. once there were no more terrans they could save). And no Protoss remnants opposed the swarm as they exited the planet like they did in SC.
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I should dig that quote up. I'll do that soon. It does imply a bit of an alliance, actually, but it's not the same thing as the deleted mission. And here's the quote:
It probably is the same thing as the mission, though we can't know for sure since LC only nodded to it, not novelized it. But the fact is that Protoss ground forces helped the SoK on Antiga Prime in that bonus mission and in the book. Virtually the same thing.
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I didn't imply anything about Gestalt's detection. I'm saying psionic detection is, at best, unreliable. (Furthermore, Khalai seem to be pretty bad at it.) This would make it possible for Kerrigan or any other "psychic sneaker" to sneak up on Khalai.
In fact, when Alzadar was ambushed by the Shel'na Kryhas in Shadow Hunters, he first fought Ladranix, and after an essentially tied battle, a bunch of Shel'na Kryhas (of the Khalai Caste) jumped him and beat him unconscious. These guys weren't even cloaked, they were probably just hiding in bushes. Mind-reading and psionic detection doesn't make for good detection.
In every single example of "bad khalai detection" you've shown, the khalai was occupied with something else, as opposed to the examples I've shown, where the psychic was searching for something. If you want to say that weak Terran psychics can detect other psychics while Protoss can't, it's probably only because we haven't seen it novelized yet.
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Raynor felt she didn't have enough backup. And in fact, she didn't, as the zerg were able to crush her limited backup. (Raynor figured she'd have to fight the zerg anyway. He was right.)
I never said Kerrigan's mission wasn't dangerous. But she had enough backup to neutralize the Protoss. If that picture is remotely accurate and she could afford to let three Zealots get that close, you have to assume it's alot of backup. I really don't see how even cloaking would have saved her if she was by herself or something - it just doesn't make sense. It's like trying to run away from a knight on horseback - you'll get mowed down by his sword.
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Re: Hybrids and insfestations
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
Yes, that's the point, that the Protoss already made planetfall in the quote before Kerrigan even got down there. So what are you saying, that a new group of Protoss went to attack and Kerrigan intercepted them? How does the new picture show that Kerrigan intercepted the Protoss? It doesn't. LC makes it clear that the Protoss were already fighting on the surface.
We're only talking about New Gettysburg, not the whole planet. The protoss can (and did -- the game!) lose at New Gettysburg. Kerrigan's orders were to protect that one hive cluster.
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They were still on the planet afterwards fighting, while Kerrigan's forces all died. So who exactly is the loser here?
See above. The protoss lost that battle. That doesn't mean they lost the whole campaign. (Which actually they did, but not to the Sons of Korhal.)
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so I'm interested in hearing how you can know all this stuff).
Because when someone refuses to call a clear loss a loss,* and refers to it as a setback (ignoring the game lore, which clearly has Kerrigan beat the protoss at New Gettysbug), it makes dialogue very difficult.
*Terran mission 9, you destroy the protoss base entirely. That's a clear loss.
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In SC1 yes, the Protoss lost to the Zerg, but that part has been somewhat retconned by Queen of Blades. The book just says the Protoss disappeared once the outcome was clear (aka. once there were no more terrans they could save).
Which would completely ignore the butt-kicking they took? If you're going to retcon something, make it clear. There's nothing saying the protoss didn't disappear until after they lost the Battle of New Gettysburg. Furthermore the protoss were unable to save any terrans, in part, because Kerrigan kicked their butts at New Gettysburg. Otherwise why couldn't they save the terrans like they had on previous planets?
From QoB:
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The Swarm ignored them. It had a higher agenda.
The battle had not gone as expected. The Terrans had put up a strong fight but with fewer soldiers than anticipated. The protoss, the hated protoss, had appeared as always, gleaming in their battle suits and glowing in their arrogance, but had rapidly lost focus, dividing their attentions as if facing not one but two opponents.
In some places the Swarm had sighted terrans battling protoss, a strange but welcome sight.
Sounds to me like the Sons of Korhal attacks against the protoss was a contributing factor to the zerg victory.
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And no Protoss remnants opposed the swarm as they exited the planet like they did in SC.
From Queen of Blades still? Doesn't actually say that. It says the zerg had some obstacles of flesh and metal (right before they warped), without going into any detail about who the opponents were. It sounds like zerg mission 2 (since that was right before they warped), which means they could have been fighting protoss, but QoB doesn't clarify things, it just muddies the water.
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It probably is the same thing as the mission, though we can't know for sure since LC only nodded to it, not novelized it. But the fact is that Protoss ground forces helped the SoK on Antiga Prime in that bonus mission and in the book. Virtually the same thing.
Yeah, that quote proved it.
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In every single example of "bad khalai detection" you've shown, the khalai was occupied with something else, as opposed to the examples I've shown, where the psychic was searching for something. If you want to say that weak Terran psychics can detect other psychics while Protoss can't, it's probably only because we haven't seen it novelized yet.
I didn't say terrans can detect when protoss can't. I'm saying it's unreliable. That's for both species Terrans have missed detecting powerful terran psychics in the next room (War-Torn). On the other hand, protoss have missed protoss and terran psychics, too (numerous sources). It's not 100%.
Also, combat is distracting, unless it's just 1:1 and you know there's no one else out there, so I don't buy that Kerrigan had no chance of stealthing those zealots.
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I never said Kerrigan's mission wasn't dangerous. But she had enough backup to neutralize the Protoss. If that picture is remotely accurate and she could afford to let three Zealots get that close, you have to assume it's alot of backup.
No, this is why some people sometimes call you a protoss fanboy, as you're inventing evidence (see next paragraph). First of all, Kerrigan is badass. Remember her killing a command center control room full of bad guys? Second, she can cloak. Third, those zealots would have been distracted by all that backup about to shoot at them (assuming there was a ton of backup, or even a little backup).
And saying she had a ton of backup is going against the lore (terran original mission 9, Raynor's quotes, repeated word-for-word in Liberty's Crusade; Raynor says she doesn't have any backup), while the image does not clarify that at all, due to its narrow focus. Unless you've got actual evidence to say she had a ton of backup, you have to go with the stated lore and say she didn't. You don't get to invent what's not in the picture, at least not if there's clearer, directly contradictory lore.
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I really don't see how even cloaking would have saved her if she was by herself or something - it just doesn't make sense. It's like trying to run away from a knight on horseback - you'll get mowed down by his sword.
Not if he can't see you, and has to charge through something small (Kerrigan is standing on a raised piece of metal, and protoss are taller than she is) or through a metal barrier (there's cover to her left, and we know from Liberty's Crusade that Kerrigan is fast) to get to you. (In other words, cover still works against melee attacks, especially if they can't see you!)
Note: Forgot to mention something. In all this talk about psionics, I forgot to address a few points/retcons that you raised.
The sequence of events is as follows:
Sons of Korhal set up psi emitters, remain on space platform.
Sons of Korhal defend New Gettysburg platform, which houses the main zerg hive cluster, from the protoss. Retconned, in that New Gettysburg and its battle was moved to the surface of Tarsonis.
Protoss arrive and land on Tarsonis' surface. (This didn't happen at this point in StarCraft I, but has been retconned.)
The Battle of New Gettysburg takes place. Except for where retconned, I believe we should stick to the old lore. In other words, the battle still involved Sarah Kerrigan leading SoK forces against the protoss, defeating them at that location and therefore protecting the primary zerg hive cluster. Then she gets abandoned by Mengsk, and the zerg capture her.
The protoss may have been winning elsewhere (although they lost/ran away in the end), but they either weren't able to crush the primary zerg hive cluster (hence the zerg victory) or they crushed it too late to achieve overall victory. Either way, they lost. And a "late victory" is unlikely, since Kerrigan was taken by the zerg at New Gettysburg, and the zerg never lost control of her.
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Re: Hybrids and insfestations
Stop posting offtopic posts !
:p
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Re: Hybrids and insfestations
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Originally Posted by
Kimera757
We're only talking about New Gettysburg, not the whole planet. The protoss can (and did -- the game!) lose at New Gettysburg. Kerrigan's orders were to protect that one hive cluster.
New Gettysburg? We were talking about Kerrigan intercepting Protoss. Were they or were they not already on the planet by the time Kerrigan got there?
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Because when someone refuses to call a clear loss a loss,* and refers to it as a setback (ignoring the game lore, which clearly has Kerrigan beat the protoss at New Gettysbug), it makes dialogue very difficult.
*Terran mission 9, you destroy the protoss base entirely. That's a clear loss.
What's more important than gameplay is the mission dialogue and rhetoric, which says the opposite of what you claim. I.E.
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Arcturus Mengsk [Battlecruiser]
I have absolute confidence in Kerrigan's ability to hold off the Protoss. (hold off, not destroy, but hold off to get Arcturus's goal done: give the Zerg enough time to kill the confederates)
or:
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This is Kerrigan. We've neutralized the Protoss
Neutralize - to counteract the activity or effect of : make ineffective
Again, she stopped the Protoss from destroying the Zerg too quickly. This doesn't mean she just annihilated all the Protoss, but it also doesn't mean there were zero protoss casualties.
Virtually every single mission in this game is a "destroy this base" type. It's not particularly convincing when you have authors like Rosenburg changing the outcome of entire missions, or when the mission in question (New Gettysburg) has been retconned. In fact, the gameplay for that mission shows something that's not true: that the Terrans were literally between the Zerg and Protoss.
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There's nothing saying the protoss didn't disappear until after they lost the Battle of New Gettysburg.
Yes there is:
"The fleet has lost contact with the ground forces at New Gettysburg. General Mengsk has ordered the immediate disengagement of the Korhal fleet from the Tarsonian system. Protoss and Zerg forces continue to battle across the core continent of Tarsonis."
This is the text right after the mission.
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Furthermore the protoss were unable to save any terrans, in part, because Kerrigan kicked their butts at New Gettysburg. Otherwise why couldn't they save the terrans like they had on previous planets?
If they were "unable" to save Terrans it's because the SoK turned on them. But the SoK did use the opportunity to rescue other humans, such as Handy, so how can you say that no terrans were saved?
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Sounds to me like the Sons of Korhal attacks against the protoss was a contributing factor to the zerg victory.
Then it sounds to me that the Sons of Korhal came in force, meaning that Kerrigan had lots of backup.
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From Queen of Blades still? Doesn't actually say that. It says the zerg had some obstacles of flesh and metal (right before they warped), without going into any detail about who the opponents were. It sounds like zerg mission 2 (since that was right before they warped), which means they could have been fighting protoss, but QoB doesn't clarify things, it just muddies the water.
The problem here is that the obstacles clearly sound like dead bodies that were on the ground, not Protoss trying to stop them as they warped. You don't use the phrase "clear obstacles" for anything other than rubble. And it also clearly says the Protoss left. Fine, QoB is not 100% on this, but it seems foolish of Protoss to be left behind.
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No, this is why some people sometimes call you a protoss fanboy, as you're inventing evidence (see next paragraph). First of all, Kerrigan is badass. Remember her killing a command center control room full of bad guys? Second, she can cloak. Third, those zealots would have been distracted by all that backup about to shoot at them (assuming there was a ton of backup, or even a little backup).
And saying she had a ton of backup is going against the lore (terran original mission 9, Raynor's quotes, repeated word-for-word in Liberty's Crusade; Raynor says she doesn't have any backup), while the image does not clarify that at all, due to its narrow focus. Unless you've got actual evidence to say she had a ton of backup, you have to go with the stated lore and say she didn't. You don't get to invent what's not in the picture, at least not if there's clearer, directly contradictory lore.
No, this is still a bunch of nonsense. It should be clear that by backup I mean any force going down there with her whatsoever to watch her back. If you're going to say that she had nobody to help her, then what did she accomplish by herself? Kill a few zealots? Then how can you call that a won battle or claim that she made any sort of difference? On the other hand, if you say she had a sizeable force with her, how is it inconceivable that she had help against the 3 zealots? You're committing a double standard. That's all I have been saying this entire time; it's mostly common sense and hardly worthy of being called a Protoss fanboy over. How am I the only one who notices this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.
As far as Raynor's quote, he knows that Terrans are largely disadvantaged when it comes to fighting Protoss, so while Kerrigan could have a million troops with her and it would be enough to handle Protoss, she would still be screwed if the Zerg showed up, hence, no backup.
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Third, those zealots would have been distracted by all that backup about to shoot at them (assuming there was a ton of backup, or even a little backup).
Not if he can't see you, and has to charge through something small (Kerrigan is standing on a raised piece of metal, and protoss are taller than she is) or through a metal barrier (there's cover to her left, and we know from Liberty's Crusade that Kerrigan is fast) to get to you. (In other words, cover still works against melee attacks, especially if they can't see you!)
Ok then. I'll buy the explanation that Kerrigan had the opportunity to run away and hide because the Protoss were distracted by other Terrans, since that's virtually been my argument the whole time. =/
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Sons of Korhal set up psi emitters, remain on space platform.
Sons of Korhal defend New Gettysburg platform, which houses the main zerg hive cluster, from the protoss. Retconned, in that New Gettysburg and its battle was moved to the surface of Tarsonis.
Protoss arrive and land on Tarsonis' surface. (This didn't happen at this point in StarCraft I, but has been retconned.)
The Battle of New Gettysburg takes place. Except for where retconned, I believe we should stick to the old lore. In other words, the battle still involved Sarah Kerrigan leading SoK forces against the protoss, defeating them at that location and therefore protecting the primary zerg hive cluster. Then she gets abandoned by Mengsk, and the zerg capture her.
The protoss may have been winning elsewhere (although they lost/ran away in the end), but they either weren't able to crush the primary zerg hive cluster (hence the zerg victory) or they crushed it too late to achieve overall victory. Either way, they lost. And a "late victory" is unlikely, since Kerrigan was taken by the zerg at New Gettysburg, and the zerg never lost control of her.
I am aware of all of this, but, again, this sounds to me like the Protoss withdrew after there were no more Terrans to save. That was the entire point of them bringing out ground forces. Apart from that, while Protoss suffered their fair share of casualties just like the Zerg, there is NO evidence that they got their "butts whooped". It just looks like they suffered their fair share of casualties just like everyone else did. Not really their fault that the SoK wanted to betray their own race instead of accepting the Protoss' free help. Hell, I'm not even sure that the Protoss would have lost less warriors had the SoK not betrayed them and they continued trying to save the planet. This is the problem with saying that the Protoss failed their objectives: they didn't really have any, and their only real goal was to just help out.
But again, this is apparently neither subjective nor up for debate. ;$
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And a "late victory" is unlikely, since Kerrigan was taken by the zerg at New Gettysburg, and the zerg never lost control of her.
Didn't the Zerg start moving across the planet's surface as soon as they captured Kerrigan? This was the first Zerg mission.
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Re: Hybrids and insfestations
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Originally Posted by
Kimera757
See above. The protoss lost that battle. That doesn't mean they lost the whole campaign. (Which actually they did, but not to the Sons of Korhal.)
Uhm, no, the Zerg did lost the campaign. The Protoss killed the Overmind, and stopped it from consuming all creation. Obviously, that doesn't means they didn't have heavy losses. They did much better than the Xel'Naga, however, and the Zerg had plenty of time to evolve and consume other species since that time.
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Re: Hybrids and insfestations
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Originally Posted by
Norfindel
Uhm, no, the Zerg did lost the campaign. The Protoss killed the Overmind, and stopped it from consuming all creation. Obviously, that doesn't means they didn't have heavy losses. They did much better than the Xel'Naga, however, and the Zerg had plenty of time to evolve and consume other species since that time.
By campaign I meant the Tarsonis Campaign, or Fall of Tarsonis. (As in a military campaign; sort of like the Normandy Invasion is often called a campaign.)
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Re: Hybrids and insfestations
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
1)
Protoss. They were saved by SOK yes, but might not have been saved in time if the Protoss didn't fight the Zerg.
Um, Mengks' goal was to make sure to ensure the Zerg destroyed the confederacy on Tarsonis and the greater number of it's citizens, not to save them. If you'll recall the ending cinematic, it shows the SoK fleet actually intercepting and destroying various Confederate transports/ships, attempting to escape.
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Re: Hybrids and insfestations
Quote:
Originally Posted by
phazonjunkie
Um, Mengks' goal was to make sure to ensure the Zerg destroyed the confederacy on Tarsonis and the greater number of it's citizens, not to save them. If you'll recall the ending cinematic, it shows the SoK fleet actually intercepting and destroying various Confederate transports/ships, attempting to escape.
?
Well he did save them nonetheless, if only for propaganda purposes or to absorb people into his empire:
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Most Confederate survivors quickly joined the Sons of Korhal, which became the primary military force opposing the alien invaders.
Source: http://us.starcraft2.com/features/storysofar.xml
Plus there's no way that his coronation video would show him destroying innocent transport ships. <_<
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Re: Hybrids and insfestations
When I read the post the first thing I thought of was "Arkalis"
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Re: Hybrids and insfestations
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Originally Posted by
Gradius
In any case, that wasn't his original plan. His goal was the complete destruction of the Confederacy, and to that end, to use the Zerg and the Protoss to do his dirty work.
Had things gone completely according to plan, Tassadar and his fleet would have sealed their destruction by simply glassing Tarsonis as he'd done all the other infested worlds. Mengsk didn't expect the Protoss would actually try to save Tarsonis by taking the fight directly to the Zerg.
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Re: Hybrids and insfestations
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Where's the proof that more Protoss wouldn't have rolled into New Gettysburg and crushed Kerrigan before the Zerg did? It doesn't exist, and that's why I originally said that this is a matter of perspective (though you guys seem positive it's not, so I'm interested in hearing how you can know all this stuff).
What? Where's the proof that more Protoss WOULD have rolled into New Gettysburg? You're the one fabricating scenarios here, not us. We're using what happened as a fact. And what happened was the Protoss didn't send more troops. You're the one making claims, and you're the one that has to prove it. So if you think the Protoss would have rolled in with more troops, then prove it.
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New Gettysburg? We were talking about Kerrigan intercepting Protoss. Were they or were they not already on the planet by the time Kerrigan got there?
What does that have to do with anything? Just because the Protoss landed on the planet first doesn't mean a thing when it says that they were headed to the hive. Kerrigan intercepted them on their way to the hive, and the game says so.
In fact, I JUST looked up Liberty's Crusade, right now. And what it says just goes to show you're quote mining in your favour. This is what DIRECTLY follows the dialogue that mentions the Protoss "making planetfall". Mind you they didn't even land on the planet yet, they were "making planetfall."
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>If< the Protoss forces engage the Zerg, Mengsk said, enunciating each word, then the Zerg are fighting them instead of the Confederates. >If< the Protoss engage the Zerg, the Confederates may escape. The Old Families may get away, and with them the heart of Confederate power! Duke blinked again, then his face fell. We need to stop the Protoss, then. I can send them a transmission telling those glowing buzzards to back off. Mengsk ignored him and hit some other toggles. Send Lieutenant Kerrigan with a strike force to engage the Protoss advance party. Captain Raynor and General Duke will stay behind with the command ship.
So yes, she did in FACT, intercept them according to the very source you used against us. And there can be not a single doubt about this, because the SOLE reason he sent Kerrigan was because he was afraid that the Zerg would fight the Protoss instead of killing the Confederates. I even underlined it for you. Kerrigan's Strike Force engaged the Protoss before the Protoss could engage the Zerg. That is the very definition of intercept.
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Neutralize - to counteract the activity or effect of : make ineffective
Furthermore, you defining the word neutralize doesn't benefit you at all. If I go and play Resident Evil 4 in the first mission, Leon Kennedy kills a bunch of dudes (yes he shoots them in the face until they die), and says he's neutralized them, so you can stop arguing semantics. Kerrigan killing off the entire Protoss base at NG means neutralize just as much as turning acid into water.
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I have absolute confidence in Kerrigan's ability to hold off the Protoss. (hold off, not destroy, but hold off to get Arcturus's goal done: give the Zerg enough time to kill the confederates)
And how does the fact that Mengsk says that Kerrigan can "hold them off" change anything? Yes, she can hold them off, in fact she proved that she did a lot more than just that, by destroying their base at New Ghettysburg completely. Yes, she "held off" the Protoss at New Ghettysburg, which means that the Protoss at NG failed to destroy the Hive that Kerrigan was protecting. She utterly destroyed them. If more Protoss were around the planet then it had nothing to do with Kerrigan because she wasn't even anywhere else.
And you still refuse to prove that the Hive was destroyed. Because obviously every source we have indicates that the Hive survived. Now you're asking me to prove that it survived beyond a reasonable doubt? Who's the one using religious logic here?
Pandonetho: The game itself says that Kerrigan prevented the Protoss from destroying the Hive in the mission. We don't have proof that it was destroyed after either, so we can assume it remained alive.
Gradius: There were still Protoss fighting the Zerg after Kerrigan got owned. So it doesn't mean it wasn't destroyed after!
Pandonetho: Prove it.
Gradius: PROVE THAT IT WASN'T DESTROYED AFTER!
See, you're the one making the claim here. Not me. All you said in response was that there were still Protoss combating the Zerg. It's up to you to prove that those Protoss in fact did destroy the Hive, not me (because I already said it wasn't destroyed). So don't go asking me to prove beyond a doubt that it WASN'T destroyed because really, we have no evidence to suggest that it WAS destroyed.
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Re: Hybrids and insfestations
This debate is quite good...but its going on the HYBRIDS TOPIC ^^
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Re: Hybrids and insfestations
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kimera757
By campaign I meant the Tarsonis Campaign, or Fall of Tarsonis. (As in a military campaign; sort of like the Normandy Invasion is often called a campaign.)
Oh, the Terrans lost that battle. The Protoss were there to help, but as they got attacked by Kerrigan and her army (as if the Zerg were not enough), they got the hell out of there.
Kerrigan was too stupid to do that. She was a stupid character up to that point, but going against the Protoss while the Psi Emitter lured tons of Zerg to the planet was one of the most stupid moves in the whole game. The Protoss could easily decide to burn the planet along with Kerrigan and the rest of the Terrans down there, after been attacked like that while trying to defend them, not to mention that the Zerg were lured in numbers big enough to defeat all Tarsonis, obviously her army wasn't going to be able to survive without a really quick evac, and even that would been risky as hell, once the Zerg got there. Even Raynor realized that the plan was suicide, genocide, and that Mengsk was a crazy manipulative bastard at that point, and he's not a genius, to say something.
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Re: Hybrids and insfestations
If blizzard wants it to happen, it will happen.
If they dont,then it wont
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Re: Hybrids and insfestations
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Kerrigan was too stupid to do that. She was a stupid character up to that point, but going against the Protoss while the Psi Emitter lured tons of Zerg to the planet was one of the most stupid moves in the whole game. The Protoss could easily decide to burn the planet along with Kerrigan and the rest of the Terrans down there, after been attacked like that while trying to defend them, not to mention that the Zerg were lured in numbers big enough to defeat all Tarsonis, obviously her army wasn't going to be able to survive without a really quick evac, and even that would been risky as hell, once the Zerg got there. Even Raynor realized that the plan was suicide, genocide, and that Mengsk was a crazy manipulative bastard at that point, and he's not a genius, to say something.
Sorry, but this is all BS. If the Protoss had engaged the Zerg, then that would have allowed the Confederates ample time to escape. Kerrigan prevented this from happening by not allowing the Protoss to interfere while the Zerg fought the Confederates, which means that the Zerg were NOT fighting the Protoss. Get it? If the Protoss wanted to glass the planet then Mengsk would have no problem with that, as that would ensure both Kerrigan's death AND the Tarsonians's deaths. In fact, Kerrigan wouldn't even have been reborn as the QOB.
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Re: Hybrids and insfestations
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Originally Posted by
Pandonetho
What? Where's the proof that more Protoss WOULD have rolled into New Gettysburg? You're the one fabricating scenarios here, not us. We're using what happened as a fact. And what happened was the Protoss didn't send more troops. You're the one making claims, and you're the one that has to prove it. So if you think the Protoss would have rolled in with more troops, then prove it.
So you know for a fact that after the New Gettysburg mission, after Kerrigan's forces died, and the protoss were still there, that they didn't send more troops even though they had them?
Please show me the evidence, because this is a bunch of nonsense. I don't have to prove anything, because I'm claiming that the areas of lore which are unknown are a matter of perspective.
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What does that have to do with anything? Just because the Protoss landed on the planet first doesn't mean a thing when it says that they were headed to the hive. Kerrigan intercepted them on their way to the hive, and the game says so.
It has to do with the fact that I destroyed your initial assertion that that Kerrigan intercepted the Protoss before they touched any Zerg. She effectively backstabbed them.
As for the game, read what Kimera posted:
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Sons of Korhal defend New Gettysburg platform, which houses the main zerg hive cluster, from the protoss. Retconned, in that New Gettysburg and its battle was moved to the surface of Tarsonis.
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In fact, I JUST looked up Liberty's Crusade, right now. And what it says just goes to show you're quote mining in your favour. This is what DIRECTLY follows the dialogue that mentions the Protoss "making planetfall". Mind you they didn't even land on the planet yet, they were "making planetfall."
Nonsense. For your position to be true, it requires that:
1) Terran ships be 10x faster than Protoss ships.
2) Terrans can mobilize, suit up and reach their dropships in a matter of minutes, since that's how long it takes to reach planetfall.
You're also ignoring the line where it says the Protoss ships already engaged Zerg.
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So yes, she did in FACT, intercept them according to the very source you used against us. And there can be not a single doubt about this, because the SOLE reason he sent Kerrigan was because he was afraid that the Zerg would fight the Protoss instead of killing the Confederates. I even underlined it for you. Kerrigan's Strike Force engaged the Protoss before the Protoss could engage the Zerg. That is the very definition of intercept.
My. Quote. Shows. Protoss. Already. Fighting. Zerg. Before. Kerrigan. Is. Sent.
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“Eh?” Mengsk spun in place and looked at the board. Already the first blue-white triangles, the symbols of the Protoss, were making planetfall. The red Zerg triangles were dispersing in their wake in ripples. It was as though the Protoss were stones thrown into a crimson pond.
“This is bad,” Mengsk said softly. “Very bad. I did not expect them to arrive so quickly. This is very bad indeed.”
I said that as slowly for you as I could because I really can't make this any clearer. The red dots are scattered by blue dots. The fighting already begun. Nobody ever said that Kerrigan failed to hold off Protoss which killed the Confederates, just that the Protoss were surrounded on all sides while Kerrigan backstabbed them.
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Furthermore, you defining the word neutralize doesn't benefit you at all. If I go and play Resident Evil 4 in the first mission, Leon Kennedy kills a bunch of dudes (yes he shoots them in the face until they die), and says he's neutralized them, so you can stop arguing semantics. Kerrigan killing off the entire Protoss base at NG means neutralize just as much as turning acid into water.
My bad for applying a word in the context of the mission objectives.
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Yes, she "held off" the Protoss at New Ghettysburg, which means that the Protoss at NG failed to destroy the Hive that Kerrigan was protecting.
Non-sequitur.
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She utterly destroyed them. If more Protoss were around the planet then it had nothing to do with Kerrigan because she wasn't even anywhere else.
I've already proven that the mission gameplay is not accurate.
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And you still refuse to prove that the Hive was destroyed. Because obviously every source we have indicates that the Hive survived. Now you're asking me to prove that it survived beyond a reasonable doubt? Who's the one using religious logic here?
There are no sources saying the hive survived. The Zerg started moving right after they captured Kerrigan. I guess the fact that I never claimed the hive was destroyed since it's not critical to my argument still doesn't bother you
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Pandonetho: The game itself says that Kerrigan prevented the Protoss from destroying the Hive in the mission. We don't have proof that it was destroyed after either, so we can assume it remained alive.
Gradius: There were still Protoss fighting the Zerg after Kerrigan got owned. So it doesn't mean it wasn't destroyed after!
Pandonetho: Prove it.
Gradius: PROVE THAT IT WASN'T DESTROYED AFTER!
Uhm, no. I said it was up for debate since we do not know. But you said it was NOT up for debate:
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Originally Posted by
Pandonetho
It really isn't a matter of perspective because Sarah Kerrigan accomplished her goals of preventing the Protoss from descending upon the Zerg's primary hive to destroy it.
You also said they failed to destroy the Zerg hive period, since at that time you had zero clue that the Protoss were still on Tarsonis after the mission:
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Originally Posted by
Pandonetho
They failed in their attempt to kill the primary Zerg hive. End of story
But since you're a dishonest debater who constantly backpedals and never feels obligated to back up your statements you have shifted to virtually the same position as me now: "we have no evidence".
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Re: Hybrids and insfestations
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So you know for a fact that after the New Gettysburg mission, after Kerrigan's forces died, and the protoss were still there, that they didn't send more troops even though they had them?
Stop arguing uselessly. You are the one making things up. Not us. We don't have to prove that the Protoss didn't send more troops, BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T. Since when did they send troops? Don't ask me, I'm saying they didn't. The game sure as hell didn't say they sent more troops. Neither did the books, so why do I have to prove it? That lies to you to prove it. Because you made the claim. Learn to follow your own rules, you prove what you claim happens, not us prove what didn't happen.
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There are no sources saying the hive survived. The Zerg started moving right after they captured Kerrigan. I guess the fact that I never claimed the hive was destroyed since it's not critical to my argument still doesn't bother you
I'm sorry what? Quit twisting words like a child. There are no sources talking about the hive PERIOD. Meaning that we take what we have as fact, that it wasn't destroyed.
If I have a glass vase at home, and it wasn't destroyed. Are you suddenly going to ask me to prove that it didn't get destroyed 5 minutes ago now that I've walked out of the house? This is going around in circle, but only because I said they failed in the destroying the hive, which is something that follows the game. And you say that there's no evidence the hive wasn't destroyed after? Well give me evidence then that the hive survived. Otherwise I'm going with the fact that THERE WERE STILL ZERG ON TARSONIS WHEN THE UED INVADED as a fact that the Zerg hive survived. You have proof... of nothing. Just because they started moving means... what? That they left it completely undefended? Just because I have a cat at home means what? That it broke the vase? While I was out? I don't see how it's not critical to your argument as a whole chunk of it is trying to debunk what I said about the hive still being alive.
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My bad for applying a word in the context of the mission objectives.
Were the mission objectives not "destroy the Protoss forces"? So I don't even know what you're talking about here.
Also, about the interception. I agree about that now.
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Re: Hybrids and insfestations
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pandonetho
<rampant nonsense>
You might as well be arguing against a totally different person than me at this point. You seem to think that you can decide what your opponent's position is, but you can never provide direct quotes for any of the things you claim I said but demand that I prove anyway. At this point you might as well make the strawman your avatar.
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Originally Posted by
Pandonetho
We don't have to prove that the Protoss didn't send more troops, BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T.
How. Do. You. Know. This. Stuff?
-__________-
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There are no sources talking about the hive PERIOD. Meaning that we take what we have as fact, that it wasn't destroyed.
How can we take it as FACT that it wasn't destroyed if there's no information on it? Your logic is truly mind numbing.
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Were the mission objectives not "destroy the Protoss forces"? So I don't even know what you're talking about here.
Mengsk never said to destroy the Protoss forces - all the dialogue in this game simply shows that Kerrigan was supposed to and did, only hold off the Protoss, or route them from the area.
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Just because they started moving means... what? That they left it completely undefended?
How about the completely logical and possible idea that since the Protoss were in the area, the Zerg did abandon the hive to keep Kerrigan safe? What a coincidence that they leave right after the Protoss would have had a chance to stage a counter-attack?
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Just because I have a cat at home means what? That it broke the vase? While I was out? I don't see how it's not critical to your argument as a whole chunk of it is trying to debunk what I said about the hive still being alive.
It's not critical to my argument because I never claimed for a fact that the hive was destroyed, only that since information about this event is unknown, it was a matter of perspective. Exactly how I explained (and you ignored) in my previous post:
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Quote:
Pandonetho: The game itself says that Kerrigan prevented the Protoss from destroying the Hive in the mission. We don't have proof that it was destroyed after either, so we can assume it remained alive.
Gradius: There were still Protoss fighting the Zerg after Kerrigan got owned. So it doesn't mean it wasn't destroyed after!
Pandonetho: Prove it.
Gradius: PROVE THAT IT WASN'T DESTROYED AFTER!
Uhm, no. I said it was up for debate since we do not know. But you said it was NOT up for debate:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pandonetho
It really isn't a matter of perspective because Sarah Kerrigan accomplished her goals of preventing the Protoss from descending upon the Zerg's primary hive to destroy it.
You also said they failed to destroy the Zerg hive period, since at that time you had zero clue that the Protoss were still on Tarsonis after the mission:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pandonetho
They failed in their attempt to kill the primary Zerg hive. End of story
But since you're a dishonest debater who constantly backpedals and never feels obligated to back up your statements you have shifted to virtually the same position as me now: "we have no evidence".
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Re: Hybrids and insfestations
You know what, I'm pretty much finished here. You arguing it's a matter of 'perspective' is based entirely on "where's the proof that it WOULDN'T have happened?"
You know how stupid that sounds? Your whole argument consists of "prove it since you claimed it." Fair.
The second point of your argument? "Prove that it WOULDN'T have happened."
You're a one sided coin. You don't even follow your own rules. Sure, keep throwing around the perspective argument. It pretty much fails because not only do you fail to give your opinion on what you thought the Protoss's purpose was, you then say it's a matter of perspective as to whether they achieved their purpose or not. Yes, how ever do we argue that they failed or didn't fail their purpose if you refuse to even acknowledge what their purpose was in the first place?
"Prove that it wouldn't have happened" is the worst argument on Earth.
Why don't you prove that Gestalt Zero wouldn't have just punched Muadun in the face to knock him out instead of neutralizing him with a dart? Since you seem to ignore all logic and use complete speculation to argue your position.
My very original argument consisted of the fact that the Protoss had failed to kill the Hive because of Kerrigan. Your argument consists of speculation that they "might" have killed the hive after Kerrigan's forces got crushed.
You can continue all day long with your speculation, it's not convincing anyone. I'll stick with the fact that the LAST KNOWN FACT about the hive was that it was not destroyed.
Well, this will be my last bored post from HK in this topic.
Got a plane to catch. When I come back we should play some TMA, haven't got a chance to do that with you yet.
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Re: Hybrids and insfestations
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pandonetho
Your whole argument consists of "prove it since you claimed it."
Agreed. I'll see you in the next huge debate. :P
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Re: Hybrids and insfestations
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pandonetho
Sorry, but this is all BS. If the Protoss had engaged the Zerg, then that would have allowed the Confederates ample time to escape. Kerrigan prevented this from happening by not allowing the Protoss to interfere while the Zerg fought the Confederates, which means that the Zerg were NOT fighting the Protoss.
But the Protoss were still on the planet fighting the Zerg after Kerrigan was captured. How did her army fall to the Zerg while been able to stop the Protoss than then continued to fight the Zerg? That doesn't makes sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pandonetho
If the Protoss wanted to glass the planet then Mengsk would have no problem with that, as that would ensure both Kerrigan's death AND the Tarsonians's deaths. In fact, Kerrigan wouldn't even have been reborn as the QOB.
Of course that Mengsk would had been more than happy. I said that Kerrigan was stupid, not Mengsk.
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Re: Hybrids and insfestations
From the new Starcraft media site a screenshot of Duran showed up in the artwork session! :O The pic is not named Samir Duran but what other black infested terran is in the lore! ;P
http://us.media.blizzard.com/sc2/med...field-full.jpg
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Re: Hybrids and insfestations
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MuppZA
From the new Starcraft media site a screenshot of Duran showed up in the artwork session! :O The pic is not named Samir Duran but what other black infested terran is in the lore! ;P
1. That dude is not infested.
2. His name is Horace Warfield.
:)
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Re: Hybrids and insfestations
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pure.Wasted
Aha but it's something zergy sticking up behind his armor! :O
So whats that?
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Re: Hybrids and insfestations
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MuppZA
Aha but it's something zergy sticking up behind his armor! :O
So whats that?
I addressed this in the "New Artwork" thread. Chances are, he is in exactly the same place as Jim Raynor was in the recent cinematic commercial -- a Zerg Hive (or some other place of swarmy evilness).
