You can't hold a sniper rifle with one hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by MulletBen
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You can't hold a sniper rifle with one hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by MulletBen
^
I heard that's one of the US marines biggest pet peeve; referring to a 'rifle' as a 'gun'. :D
Actually, it doesn't. Singlehandedly means to do something by yourself, without aid, support, or assistance from others.Quote:
Singlehandedly(I'm acting all Captain Obvious now) means using one hand.
Guess this word is not to be understood literally. :D
guess u guys are way off topic
Totally.Quote:
guess u guys are way off topic
Back on topic now, the one Terran/Protoss Hybrid we've had so far is way cooler than any other Terran made Terran/Zerg hybrid.
I second that, she was doomed in that scenario, unless the Protoss had no detection, which would be ridiculous.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gradius
Doomed how? She successfully stopped the Toss from interfering so obviously she was not "doomed" in any way other than the fact that Mengsk back stabbed her.Quote:
I second that, she was doomed in that scenario, unless the Protoss had no detection, which would be ridiculous.
The protoss wouldn't have detection everywhere; they don't have Comsat Sweep.Quote:
Originally Posted by Norfindel
By the time an observer could get there, all three zealots could have been dead. (More zealots could rush to the scene, of course, but Kerrigan would have found a new hiding spot.)
In reality a Protoss should be able to detect other cloaked psychics. Sarah Kerrigan detected another Ghost in StarCraft: Uprising when it sneaked up behind her. The ghost's alpha waves broadcast its general direction or something. Infested Kerrigan could detect Zeratul when he was cloaked as well. Neither Infested Kerrigan or Sarah Kerrigan are detectors in game.
Then why couldn't Muadun detect Gestalt Zero? (And yes, the plant did, which suggests to me that psychic detection requires concentration, attention or something beyond "I win"; it's not that reliable).Quote:
Originally Posted by Gradius
Same with those Khalai. Even if they could detect him, they weren't on guard, they weren't expecting to be ambushed by a cloaked psychic.
Shadow Hunters suggested detection technology was not invented because Khalai could not hide their minds from each other (as opposed to, say, during the Aeon of Strife). Although that can't be entirely true, given the invention of the observer. But it seems to me that Khalai might legitimately have a hard time detecting cloaked opponents with their minds.
But then ghosts have a hard time hiding their minds from each other. So I think we're stuck with "sometimes a Khalai can detect a cloaked opponent" which means sometimes they can't, subject to a "sliding scale" depending on which evidence a reader rates "higher".
Yeah, she detected him at long range, actually. Having said that, it's the only time we've seen such long-range detection. (Except for Malcolm Kelerchian, who, to be fair, was tracking Nova's psychic explosion.)Quote:
Sarah Kerrigan detected another Ghost in StarCraft: Uprising when it sneaked up behind her. The ghost's alpha waves broadcast its general direction or something.
On the other hand, they're both above-average psychics. They both seem to have done a better job than, say, Muadun. (Not to bash Muadun, though.)Quote:
Infested Kerrigan could detect Zeratul when he was cloaked as well. Neither Infested Kerrigan or Sarah Kerrigan are detectors in game.
Regardless of who is right, though, I don't think you can just ignore a piece of lore as "fake". We know Kerrigan fought protoss (as seen in that picture), and we know she survived to be taken down by the zerg instead. A way of taking that image into account without ignoring it might be to say "Kerrigan went 'oh crap!' and retreated a greater distance".
By the way, the ability to detect psionics varies from one story to another. According to Mengsk in Liberty's Crusade, a zerg can only detect a psychic within a few feet (close enough to smell 'em out anyway) without the use of a psi-emitter... but in War-Torn, a low-psychic terran could detect Colin Phash at such close range it was basically a useless ability. He used zerglings, which could track the boy through a whole refugee camp.
Even in Uprising, Kerrigan could track that ghost at long range, but when she entered the Ghost Academy, she never detected any ghosts, and we can presume no ghosts detected her (as she was never attacked). That drunk ghost who was in the bar at the same time as herself didn't detect her either (but, to be fair, he'd just had an inhibitor put in his head, and was drunk).
There were Terran made Terran/Zerg hybrids??Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandonetho
At least twice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kknewkles
Muadun was preoccupied - in contrast to Sarah Kerrigan who was looking for the ghost, or Infested Kerrigan who was looking for Tassadar but found someone else instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimera757
Muadun broke his neural inhibitor, so Kerrigan is not more powerful than him if that's what you're saying.Quote:
On the other hand, they're both above-average psychics. They both seem to have done a better job than, say, Muadun.
If the Tal'Darim detected a shielded Rosemary so easily in Shadow Hunters, and Colin was detected so easily by Zerg and that Wrangler, I think we can allow for the fact that Protoss could sense where a cloaked ghost is. Zeratul for example should be able to shield his thoughts even better than Infested Kerrigan given his decades of experience, but he was detected anyway. As for the painting, I contend that Kerrigan had hideous amounts of backup instead of running away & cloaking.
Well, nobody is saying it's fake i.e. my quote that "For all we know there were a billion Marines behind her in the painting."Quote:
Regardless of who is right, though, I don't think you can just ignore a piece of lore as "fake". We know Kerrigan fought protoss (as seen in that picture), and we know she survived to be taken down by the zerg instead. A way of taking that image into account without ignoring it might be to say "Kerrigan went 'oh crap!' and retreated a greater distance".
Weren't they special zerglings?Quote:
He used zerglings, which could track the boy through a whole refugee camp.
I might have misremembered though.
Really? She was looking for the Ghost? Then she obviously detected it because Ghosts aren't supposed to be "known" boarding another ship when they're planning an assassination, unless it's directly mentioned that everyone knew a Ghost boarded the Hyperion, so that Kerrigan started directly looking for him.Quote:
Muadun was preoccupied - in contrast to Sarah Kerrigan who was looking for the ghost, or Infested Kerrigan who was looking for Tassadar but found someone else instead.
BTW, Muadun was busy admiring a flower, and not only that he realized that the flower had detected something and he still didn't realize Gestalt was there until GZ literally paralyzed him with a dart at close range.
He broke it after Burgess lowered the inhibitor. He didn't break the inhibitor when the inhibitor was fully operational.Quote:
Muadun broke his neural inhibitor, so Kerrigan is not more powerful than him if that's what you're saying.
Nope, regular ol Zerglings that got lobotomized to sever their connection to the Zerg. They also had collars that were to act as a fail safe just in case the Lings turned on people that they weren't intended to be turned on, but the technology failed and the Wrangler ended up getting owned.Quote:
Weren't they special zerglings?
Btw, we've already been through this topic before.
http://sclegacy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=899
This is what Kimera said in that old topic.
Anyway.Quote:
And why can't ghosts sense dark templar? Ghosts detecting each other only appeared once in lore, although there have been several instances of psychics detecting each other. According to Arcturus Mengsk himself, a hydralisk can "sniff out" a ghost at very short range, about the same range they could detect them psionically. I get the impression that none of the species are attuned to each other, which lets a ghost sneak up on Muadun. (The flower did detect him, but only at very close range.) Basically, the Energy Radar ability, but at much shorter range; you know they're there (you can see the dot on the mini-map) but that's not good enough to target your opponent.
Yeap, in that case if that were true, we definitely know who's the smarter species. The "billion marines with guns" or "the guys with melee weapons charging at them".Quote:
Well, nobody is saying it's fake i.e. my quote that "For all we know there were a billion Marines behind her in the painting."
We can contend all day about something that isn't even remotely shown (basically, non existent) but that would be totally pointless because there's no proof of it at all, and it would be counter productive to debate about non existent things (IE debating that there are a crap load of troops supporting Kerrigan in that scene, when it doesn't show that at all.)Quote:
As for the painting, I contend that Kerrigan had hideous amounts of backup instead of running away & cloaking.
Also, purely curious here. But what instance of Zeratul being detected are we talking about? Are we referring to the cinematic? And if so, how do we know Zeratul was cloaked or trying to hide his presence?
Wrong. Read it again. Burgess demanded a full diagnostic of the inhibitor after Muadun broke it the first time after it was lowered. Then Muadun broke the fully functional one while in his cell. It's too bad that Muadun didn't succeed the first time around though. He broke the giant metal constraints with his bare hands and was so close to beating that weak-as-crap gestalt zero into a pulp.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandonetho
Except if you read the book it was known that a Ghost was on board since one of the people mentioned seeing an invisible soldier right before. Seriously, why would you even comment on this when you have zero clue what's being discussed?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandonetho
Though you are the master of arguing for positions with nonexistant evidence (such as psionics being magic in a sci-fi game), I don't really recall asking your opinion. Either way, I'll just assume that those Zealots in that painting never died since that's not what the painting shows.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandonetho
It's in Queen of Blades not the cinematic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandonetho
My bad then, I forgot about the second instance.Quote:
Wrong. Read it again. Burgess demanded a full diagnostic of the inhibitor after Muadun broke it the first time after it was lowered. Then Muadun broke the fully functional one while in his cell. It's too bad that Muadun didn't succeed the first time around though. He broke the giant metal constraints with his bare hands and was so close to beating that weak-as-crap gestalt zero into a pulp.
He did indeed break the restraints but wasn't close to accomplishing anything hostile because despite what you want a Protoss to be, Muadun wasn't trying to kill GZ in the slightest.
What's non existent? Scientific theories proving psionics is scientific? That whole debate was a debate using only theory, so you can really drop the whole evidence thing regarding that. Also, I recall that this is a forum, where I'm free to comment on whatever I want to. As for the Zealots not dying, that could be completely true and I won't debate it. I'm just going to go with the fact that they failed miserably at whatever they were trying to do. And if we take your hypothetical situation to be true, we can agree that those Zealots really deserve a Darwin award.Quote:
Though you are the master of arguing for positions with nonexistant evidence (such as psionics being magic in a sci-fi game), I don't really recall asking your opinion. Either way, I'll just assume that those Zealots in that painting never died since that's not what the painting shows.
Why shouldn't I comment on it? I can obviously learn more about the lore if you correct me on it. So there we go, not so hard was it? It's not like I have the book right here right now to look it up. Also, how does one see an invisible soldier?Quote:
Except if you read the book it was known that a Ghost was on board since one of the people mentioned seeing an invisible soldier right before. Seriously, why would you even comment on this when you have zero clue what's being discussed?
Why wouldn't he want to kill him? He had no problem shooting at him when he dropped in on the room of him & the Khalai.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandonetho
Well, Protoss are smarter than humans, so I assume they had a good reason for charging in.Quote:
What's non existent? Scientific theories proving psionics is scientific? That whole debate was a debate using only theory, so you can really drop the whole evidence thing regarding that. Also, I recall that this is a forum, where I'm free to comment on whatever I want to. As for the Zealots not dying, that could be completely true and I won't debate it. I'm just going to go with the fact that they failed miserably at whatever they were trying to do. And if we take your hypothetical situation to be true, we can agree that those Zealots really deserve a Darwin award.
"“Sir, it’s Somo. I don’t know if I’m going crazy, but IQuote:
Why shouldn't I comment on it? I can obviously learn more about the lore if you correct me on it. So there we go, not so hard was it? It's not like I have the book right here right now to look it up. Also, how does one see an invisible soldier?
think there’s an enemy still alive on board. He just killed
two of our guys and I think he’s on his way to you. I
know this sounds nuts, but ...I couldn’t see him. I
think he must have some kind of cloaking, I don’t know.
I locked myself in one of the compartments.”
“There’s a Ghost on board, general.” Sarah advanced
to the monitors showing the ship’s interior. She moved
to a diagram of the upper deck, scanning the maze of
halls and corridors."
Really? My memory is foggy but I thought he was the only one without a gun, and was trying to convince GZ to free his mind.Quote:
Why wouldn't he want to kill him? He had no problem shooting at him when he dropped in on the room of him & the Khalai.
Yeah, you can say anything you want but I don't see any good reason to "charge into a billion guys with guns" when there are only 3 of them. Of course that's assuming that there were a billion guys with guns, and not just Sarah Kerrigan whom they mistakenly thought they could handle. Either way, end result, they failed at accomplishing their goal. Sarah Kerrigan successfully accomplished hers.Quote:
Well, Protoss are smarter than humans, so I assume they had a good reason for charging in.
Why, thank you for enlightening me good sir.Quote:
"“Sir, it’s Somo. I don’t know if I’m going crazy, but I
think there’s an enemy still alive on board. He just killed
two of our guys and I think he’s on his way to you. I
know this sounds nuts, but ...I couldn’t see him. I
think he must have some kind of cloaking, I don’t know.
I locked myself in one of the compartments.”
“There’s a Ghost on board, general.” Sarah advanced
to the monitors showing the ship’s interior. She moved
to a diagram of the upper deck, scanning the maze of
halls and corridors."
What I meant is that he had no problem arming everyone with guns and telling them to shoot at Gestalt (though I'm sure he knew it wouldn't work). Before that incident we're talking about though (where he almost broke his shackles), he called Gestalt an abomination.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandonetho
That's a matter of perspective. Mengsk's goal was to delay the Protoss so that the Confederates couldn't escape, but the Protoss reached the planet anyway.Quote:
Yeah, you can say anything you want but I don't see any good reason to "charge into a billion guys with guns" when there are only 3 of them. Of course that's assuming that there were a billion guys with guns, and not just Sarah Kerrigan whom they mistakenly thought they could handle. Either way, end result, they failed at accomplishing their goal. Sarah Kerrigan successfully accomplished hers.
Well of course. He knew fully well that GZ was coming to kill/capture them all so why wouldn't he tell the other Khalai to protect themselves? He himself was honourable enough though to go in without a weapon to try to free GZ's mind. And let's face it, if you really think Muadun himself personally had no qualms about destroying GZ, you don't think he could have just fried GZ's brain when they were in close contact, instead of just simply disabling the inhibitor?Quote:
What I meant is that he had no problem arming everyone with guns and telling them to shoot at Gestalt (though I'm sure he knew it wouldn't work). Before that incident we're talking about though (where he almost broke his shackles), he called Gestalt an abomination.
It really isn't a matter of perspective because Sarah Kerrigan accomplished her goals of preventing the Protoss from descending upon the Zerg's primary hive to destroy it. The Protoss failed to destroy it with their ground forces, allowing for the Confederacy's complete destruction. Kerrigan wasn't trying to stop the Protoss from breaching the planet.Quote:
That's a matter of perspective. Mengsk's goal was to delay the Protoss so that the Confederates couldn't escape, but the Protoss reached the planet anyway.
Quote:
Billions of zerg were lured to Tarsonis, laying waste to the Confederacy's defenses. The protoss followed, descending upon the zerg's primary hive.[21]
Mengsk ordered Kerrigan to protect the primary zerg hive from the protoss Expeditionary Force, allowing the zerg to complete the Confederacy's destruction. Jim Raynor was increasing uncomfortable with Mengsk's leadership and motivations, but was unable to convince Kerrigan to allow him to accompany her.[21] Kerrigan completed her mission but was in turn overrun by the zerg.
The wiki isn't really a valid source for quoting. Here's what it says in the actual game after the mission:Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandonetho
You said that the Protoss failed in their goal. So what was that? Not destroying the hive? There's no proof that they didn't. The simple fact is that they wouldn't have continued fighting if they thought the planet couldn't be saved. They simply suffered a setback on a part of the planet they didn't care about.Quote:
The fleet has lost contact with the ground forces at New Gettysburg. General Mengsk has ordered the immediate disengagement of the Korhal fleet from the Tarsonian system. Protoss and Zerg forces continue to battle across the core continent of Tarsonis.
Isn't it obvious what their goal was? It was to try to save the Terrans of Tarsonis, which they clearly failed. Just because they continued to battle the Zerg doesn't mean anything when the picture doesn't even involve the Confederacy anymore. Mengsk disengaged because Kerrigan accomplished her goal to his satisfaction, which knowing the bitter man that he is, is the utter and complete destruction of the Confederates, which is what happened.Quote:
You said that the Protoss failed in their goal. So what was that? The simple fact is that they wouldn't have continued fighting if they thought the planet couldn't be saved. They simply suffered a setback on a part of the planet they didn't care about.
As for your post edit, it doesn't matter if they destroyed the Hive or not. The Confederates had already been crushed. Mengsk already disengaged. What else do you think the Protoss wanted to do? They kept fighting yes, so what? You think they're going to start loading up any remaining survivors onto their ships or something? I'm pretty sure fighting against the Zerg isn't as simple as just walking away when you realize that the planet is gone beyond any doubt.Quote:
So what was that? Not destroying the hive? There's no proof that they didn't.
Where's the proof that they failed. Several Confederate people survived, like Handy Anderson, or a bunch of the characters from SC:G Nova. The Protoss could care less about the Confederacy, so that's not really a failure on their part to preserve the old terran government if that's what you're saying. It was the Zerg that gave them trouble, not Kerrigan's little force that backstabbed them while they were trying to fight Zerg.
I seriously think you should read your own posts sometimes. You sound like such a hardcore Protoss fanboy you can't even accept one factual thing about the game and start going on about huge speculative scenarios. The fact of the matter is that the game says Kerrigan accomplished her goals of preventing the Protoss from destroying the primary hive. The Protoss failed to destroy it when it was relevant. I'm not even remotely saying they care about the Confederates. If you had bothered to read I said they were trying to save the Terrans of Tarsonis.Quote:
Where's the proof that they failed. Several Confederate people survived, like Handy Anderson, or a bunch of the characters from SC:G Nova. The Protoss could care less about the Confederacy, so that's not really a failure on their part to preserve the old terran government if that's what you're saying. It was the Zerg that gave them trouble, not Kerrigan's little force that was demolished.
Now tell me, how do you expect to do that when the Confederates have been destroyed and they don't have the resources to save anybody? If they had resources rest assured they would save themselves first. And so what if a couple of dudes escaped? It's inevitable but that isn't even remotely relevant as the Confederates don't even pose a threat to Mengsk, which was his goal in the first place, to prevent many Confederates from escaping.
Really, if you're so insistent on this, would you mind outlining what their goal is for me? Because you certainly seem to think that everything I mention is wrong in some way, but you haven't even provided your position on this debate except for all this speculated junk. Maybe if we agreed on what the goals of the Protoss were in landing on the Planet instead of incinerating it then we could have a point from which to debate.
You ask me to provide proof about them failing. Well why don't YOU first provide me with what you think their goal was?
You took the game and quoted the aftermath of the fight mentioning that the Protoss were still fighting. So what? Are you saying that the Protoss DIDN'T descend on the primary hive cluster? What's the point of descending on the primary hive cluster if you don't have a goal? Yes that makes total sense, we're going to DESCEND on the primary hive cluster, but we have no goal. Kerrigan accomplished her goal of preventing its destruction, but we the Protoss just descended on it to chill out, so nope we didn't fail anything right?
You're just getting ridiculous. Kerrigan and her force backstabbed the Protoss? Since when the hell were they allied in the first place? I'd like to see your proof for that.Quote:
t was the Zerg that gave them trouble, not Kerrigan's little force that backstabbed them while they were trying to fight Zerg.
Yes, my bad for supplying actual evidence such as names of people who survived or using actual in-game quotes instead of wiki summaries. I'll try to be more like you from now on: make claims first, then worry about whether those claims have substantiating evidence later.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandonetho
Again, what makes you think the Protoss cared about saving it when it was relevant? The planet was largely screwed anyway even before they got there.Quote:
The fact of the matter is that the game says Kerrigan accomplished her goals of preventing the Protoss from destroying the primary hive. The Protoss failed to destroy it when it was relevant. I'm not even remotely saying they care about the Confederates. If you had bothered to read I said they were trying to save the Terrans of Tarsonis.
Uhm, the fact that lots of people were loaded on transports, such as the ones I mentioned.Quote:
Now tell me, how do you expect to do that when the Confederates have been destroyed and they don't have the resources to save anybody? If they had resources rest assured they would save themselves first. And so what if a couple of dudes escaped? It's inevitable but that isn't even remotely relevant as the Confederates don't even pose a threat to Mengsk, which was his goal in the first place, to prevent many Confederates from escaping.
You're the one who said they failed in their goal, not me, so it's your job to tell me what it is. The burden of proof is on the person making the claim (you). The Protoss went in, saved as many people as they could because Tassadar was a nice guy and felt obligated to help out, end of story.Quote:
Really, if you're so insistent on this, would you mind outlining what their goal is for me? Because you certainly seem to think that everything I mention is wrong in some way, but you haven't even provided your position on this debate except for all this speculated junk. Maybe if we agreed on what the goals of the Protoss were in landing on the Planet instead of incinerating it then we could have a point from which to debate.
You ask me to provide proof about them failing. Well why don't YOU first provide me with what you think their goal was?
No problem:Quote:
You're just getting ridiculous. Kerrigan and her force backstabbed the Protoss? Since when the hell were they allied in the first place? I'd like to see your proof for that.
Liberty's Crusade basically canonized the bonus SC mission where Tassadar introduced himself and helped the Sons of Korhal fight Zerg.Quote:
Originally Posted by Liberty's Crusade
But of course, I'm getting bored of being the only one supplying any proof for well....anything.
Arguing with you is ridiculous, because you won't even tell me what you think the Protoss's goal was. You rehash the same arguments all the time, and ask for proof all the time when you supply none yourself. It's really childish.
You want in game quotes? The adjutant says exactly this. "I've picked up several dozen Protoss warships descending upon Tarsonis. They seem to be heading on a direct course to the primary Zerg hive."Quote:
Yes, my bad for supplying actual evidence such as names of people who survived or using actual in-game quotes instead of wiki summaries. I'll try to be more like you from now on: make claims first, then worry about whether those claims have substantiating evidence later.
Now what the hell do you think they were doing, heading on a direct course to the primary Zerg hive? Obviously to destroy it. They failed. You say they could have destroyed the hive cluster? Prove it. They failed in their attempt to kill the primary Zerg hive. End of story. Kerrigan even says she neutralized the Protoss at the end of the mission.
I like how you bring up garbage about how Kerrigan's force backstabbed the Protoss and then totally ignore it when I question you about it, let alone the FACT that she and her forces were the only force separating the Protoss and the Zerg. Play the damn mission again maybe it will jog your memory. The Zerg force overran Kerrigan from the North of the map, the Protoss were in the South, Kerrigan's forces in between.
The Protoss didn't necessarily have only one goal. And they certainly failed in their goal to kill the hive cluster because Kerrigan herself says she neutralized the Protoss. Quit being a fanboy. You willingly refuse to be conducive to the debate when I ask you what you think the Protoss's goal was. You know how ridiculous you sound?
Nice, quoting a section from when it was talking about Antiga Prime? Yeah, that's totally relevant.Quote:
Liberty's Crusade basically canonized the bonus SC mission where Tassadar introduced himself and helped the Sons of Korhal fight Zerg.
By the way, what's the point of even saying that Handy Anderson survived when it was the SoK that saved him? Really, you should be more honest with your debating instead of just throwing everything out there.
What do you not get about burden of proof? Did you not say that the Protoss failed in their goal? Does that not mean it's your job to show how? Notice how we aren't arguing that Kerrigan failed. That's because she didn't, and I'm knowledgeable enough to not make such claims, unlike you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandonetho
It's your job to prove it, not mine. Protoss forces still existed after that mission.Quote:
You want in game quotes? The adjutant says exactly this. "I've picked up several dozen Protoss warships descending upon Tarsonis. They seem to be heading on a direct course to the primary Zerg hive."
Now what the hell do you think they were doing, heading on a direct course to the primary Zerg hive? Obviously to destroy it. They failed. You say they could have destroyed the hive cluster? Prove it. They failed in their attempt to kill the primary Zerg hive. End of story.
You should also be aware that the phrase "heading on a direct course to the primary Zerg hive" has basically been retconned, since this mission was on the ground, and not in space like it was in the game.
Neutralize - to counteract the activity or effect of : make ineffectiveQuote:
Kerrigan even says she neutralized the Protoss at the end of the mission.
In the context of the mission, it means she delayed the activity of the Protoss.
Ok. Ignore the irrefutable proof that I gave in my last post. No problem. <_<Quote:
I like how you bring up garbage about how Kerrigan's force backstabbed the Protoss and then totally ignore it when I question you about it,
LOLQuote:
let alone the FACT that she and her forces were the only force separating the Protoss and the Zerg. Play the damn mission again maybe it will jog your memory. The Zerg force overran Kerrigan from the North of the map, the Protoss were in the South, Kerrigan's forces in between.
Since it's inconceivable that Protoss were in other places than what you could see on the map right? And since gameplay perfectly represents lore, right? The fact of the matter is that Kerrigan's force was squashed, and we don't know what happened afterwards apart from the fact that Protoss were still there.
Are you daft or something? You asked me for proof that they were allied before, so I gave it to you. It was a backstab regardless since any sane being would assume that a Terran force's only purpose on the planet would be to save its own race.Quote:
Nice, quoting a section from when it was talking about Antiga Prime? Yeah, that's totally relevant.
It's about the timing, but since my time is limited I have to pull a wiki quote:Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandonetho
Again, still bored of being the only one in this debate supplying proof/evidence!Quote:
Um, you said that they could have destroyed the Hive Cluster after. So why aren't you proving it?Quote:
It's your job to prove it, not mine. Protoss forces still existed after that mission.
And what exactly does this have to do with anything? The whole mission revolved around defending the Zerg from the Protoss. Or are you prepared to provide proof that it wasn't about that?Quote:
You should also be aware that the phrase "heading on a direct course to the primary Zerg hive" has basically been retconned, since this mission was on the ground, and not in space like it was in the game.
Want to prove it?Quote:
Since it's inconceivable that Protoss were in other places than what you could see on the map right? And since gameplay perfectly represents lore, right? The fact of the matter is that Kerrigan's force was squashed, and we don't know what happened afterwards apart from the fact that Protoss were still there.
No, but are you daft? This is what you said. Also, I like how you think the Protoss were trying to support Kerrigan when the whole mission revolved around them attacking her trying to get to the Zerg.Quote:
Are you daft or something? You asked me for proof that they were allied before, so I gave it to you. It was a backstab regardless since any sane being would assume that a Terran force's only purpose on the planet would be to save its own race.
So prove that Kerrigan backstabbed the Protoss while they were fighting the Zerg? Because the mission, ergo the GAME, directly shows that the only force between the Zerg and the Protoss was Kerrigan herself. No Protoss vs Zerg in that mission, nope! Or else prove it.Quote:
It was the Zerg that gave them trouble, not Kerrigan's little force that backstabbed them while they were trying to fight Zerg.
Really? You're really going to make things up and then blame me about not supporting facts? Prove that Kerrigan only delayed them. Because in the mission itself the objective states that you have to destroy the Protoss force. Which she did. Just because there were Protoss around the planet elsewhere doesn't mean anything considering they failed in their goal to get past Kerrigan to fight the Zerg, in that specific location.Quote:
Neutralize - to counteract the activity or effect of : make ineffective
In the context of the mission, it means she delayed the activity of the Protoss.
Yeah I think we're done here. In case anyone missed it, here is what went down:
Pandonetho: Bullshit claim.
Gradius: Prove it.
Pandonetho: NO U.
http://www.youseedrybones.com/wp-con...ious_Logic.jpg
Considering how all your posts are just a merry go round of untruths, non-sequiturs and circular reasoning, I'm sure you could. Ignoring facts/evidence while putting forth none of your own must indeed be easy.Quote:
I can go on all day with you.
Unfortunately I don't feel obligated to back up claims I never made. Why am I supposed to make this debate easy for you again? You think you can say whatever you want and everyone is just supposed to agree?Quote:
And again, the fact that you refuse to provide your own input on what you think the Protoss goals are so that we can have a more common point to debate from.
You'd do that no matter what. I already have you using fancy terms like "strawman" and "burden of proof," which you got from me, regardless of whether it's relevant or not. And that is truly childish.Quote:
But I suppose you're just afraid that what you end up typing will be used against you.
Yeah, so the moment I use your child tactics against you, you instantly resort to some kind of fallacious argument to end the debate. Grow up man.
I really find it hilarious that you refuse to provide any shred of evidence to Kerrigan "backstabbing the Protoss WHILE they were fighting the Zerg" when the game mission itself had no such thing of that sort.
Also, you're saying that just because the Hive Cluster wasn't destroyed when Kerrigan there, that it doesn't mean it wasn't destroyed after? I've yet to see you prove that either.
I can go on all day with you.
And again, the fact that you refuse to provide your own input on what you think the Protoss goals are so that we can have a more common point to debate from. But I suppose you're just afraid that what you end up typing will be used against you.
You're a real piece of work aren't you? You think I got strawman from you? Really? And you really do prove time and time again that you don't read, because I never even used "burden of proof".Quote:
You'd do that no matter what. I already have you using fancy terms like "strawman" and "burden of proof," which you got from me, regardless of whether it's relevant or not. And that is truly childish.
Let alone that you're still ignoring my requests for proofs on claims YOU made, and STILL ignoring it, it just shows you're a massive hypocrite.
You haven't disproved a single thing. The game stated the Protoss were headed straight for the Primary Zerg Hive. I said they failed in destroying it.
You didn't pull out your little retcon card until later, and I still don't see how it changed anything seeing as how it didn't directly contradict the fact that the Protoss were still headed for the primary hive. So this is where it goes merry go round, because you bring up some point about Protoss still being on the planet, which is somehow supposed to be an argument against the fact that they didn't destroy the Zerg Hive? And even better, you haven't even proven a single thing, and STILL refuse, to prove that the Zerg Hive could have been destroyed after. Try harder next time, and without the hypocrisy. Otherwise, prove that the Protoss weren't attempting to destroy the Zerg Hive (because combating the Zerg means they try not to take out the PRIMARY hive right? Because that would be counter productive to combating the Zerg oviously /sarcasm).
Would also still request to see your proof that Kerrigan backstabbed the Protoss by attacking them > while < they were engaging the Zerg. Of course, I can predict you'll just ignore this again because you in fact, don't have proof and will try to redirect your own fault by again reiterating that I didn't support my claims blah blah. Of course, this is a direct claim made by yourself that Kerrigan attacked the Toss > while < they were engaged with the Zerg, but you still haven't provided proof of it. Until then, I'll just be content with calling you a giant hypocrite.
Hate to dissapoint you, Gradius, but your reduction has left out facts, distorted the truth AND made an outright lie.
Pandonetho: The Protoss failed
Gradius: No they didn't. There still could have been toss forces.
Pandonetho: And...? That doesn't mean Kerrigan failed and the Protoss won.
Gradius: Prove it.
Pandonetho: Prove what?
Gradius: Prove the toss failed.
Pandonetho: Well, Kerrigan delayed the Protoss for long enough that the zerg overwhelmed the Confederates. (childish insults).
Gradius: That doesn't mean that the Protoss failed.
Pandonetho: I thought it did. Isn't that what the toss were trying to do? Rescue the Terran?
Gradius: No.
Pandonetho: Then what were they trying to do?
Gradius: Prove it.
And so on....
Well, looks like we're not really done here. :D
1) It's a figure of speech bro. My point was you didn't accuse me of making strawmen until I accused you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandonetho
2) Find me direct quotes I made that I didn't back up.
Why should I prove that the Protoss destroyed the primary hive if you can't prove that it was their objective or that it wasn't destroyed later anyway? I never said they did destroy the hive anyway, so you better find a better reason for why I need to care about this. You on the other hand, seem to KNOW that they failed in destroying the hive: "The game stated the Protoss were headed straight for the Primary Zerg Hive. I said they failed in destroying it."Quote:
You haven't disproved a single thing. The game stated the Protoss were headed straight for the Primary Zerg Hive. I said they failed in destroying it.
You didn't pull out your little retcon card until later, and I still don't see how it changed anything seeing as how it didn't directly contradict the fact that the Protoss were still headed for the primary hive.
Sigh. Here is a complete breakdown of the mission for you to make this easier:Quote:
Otherwise, prove that the Protoss weren't attempting to destroy the Zerg Hive (because combating the Zerg means they try not to take out the PRIMARY hive right? Because that would be counter productive to combating the Zerg oviously /sarcasm).
1) Protoss headed towards Zerg hive.
2) Kerrigan temporarily neutralized the Protoss (drove them back long enough to save the hive).
3) Kerrigan's forces got destroyed by Zerg.
4) ???
5) Protoss forces were still there.
How does this mean the Protoss failed in their goal? Should anyone who suffers a minor setback automatically give up? Of course, the premise of this mission has kind of been retconned, but your argument holds no water regardless.
This would normally be nice trash talk except for the fact that I do actually have proof. Here it is:Quote:
Would also still request to see your proof that Kerrigan backstabbed the Protoss by attacking them > while < they were engaging the Zerg. Of course, I can predict you'll just ignore this again because you in fact, don't have proof and will try to redirect your own fault by again reiterating that I didn't support my claims blah blah. Of course, this is a direct claim made by yourself that Kerrigan attacked the Toss > while < they were engaged with the Zerg, but you still haven't provided proof of it. Until then, I'll just be content with calling you a giant hypocrite.
This is before he sends Kerrigan. Note that the protoss make planetfall, and that no Protoss are getting "intercepted" by Terrans as you're trying to make it sound.Quote:
Originally Posted by Liberty's Crusade
Again, still bored of being the only one in this debate supplying proof/evidence!
I...don't know what to make of this. lol. :PQuote:
Originally Posted by MulletBen
All this argument is is a misunderstanding surrounded by irrelevant insults.
okay?
Only if you don't read the whole thing, sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by MulletBen
PS: You guys shouldn't get the wrong idea. Me & Pandonetho are tight & chat over MSN all the time. Nothing wrong with a little hardcore debating. :P
Quote:
Yeah I think we're done here. In case anyone missed it, here is what went down:
Pandonetho: Bullshit claim.
Gradius: Prove it.
Pandonetho: NO U.
....
Traditionally one provides proof for his own statements. Things are not "true until proven false" in debates. You realize your the one displaying "religious" logic right?
Unless I've completely misunderstood the nature of this conversation....I admit I haven't read through all the pages.
Uhm, are you talking to me? If so, you totally misread the example.Quote:
Originally Posted by newcomplex
Let me break it down for everybody:
Pandonetho first makes the claim that the Protoss somehow failed in their objectives on Tarsonis because of Kerrigan, even though they were fighting Zerg both before & after Kerrigan came by.Quote:
Pandonetho: Bullshit claim.
I ask him to prove how they failed in their objectives (or even how he knows what those objectives are).Quote:
Gradius: Prove it.
He wants me to prove that the Protoss destroyed the primary hive that they were heading for.Quote:
Pandonetho: NO U.
This is easy. Kerrigan is shown shooting at 3 Zealots like 5 meters away running at her. That's sure death, no matter what Terran you are, so the picture is draw like that for the cool factor.
Kerrigan, infested, still seems to be as strong as a human. She retains her human body shape. Yet, she and Zeratul have about the same strength, and Kerrigan is a woman! (I don't care if you think it's sexist, it's true that men have higher muscular potential than women...Well, in any case, well-built men have higher muscle power than women who look like beauty queens! :P) So yes, it is VERY plausible for a human to be able to defeat a Protoss. A normal one? Maybe not, but a cybernetically and genetically enhanced human (ex: Crysis Nanosuit meets a harshly trained, genetically enhanced human). Add psionics to that, and it is plausible.
Now, Zero didn't defeat them singlehandedly, but it seems plausible that he could defeat a Zealot singlehandedly, if he managed to avoid its psionic blades (like any other living sentient being in StarCraft). Plus, don't forget that Zero also has armor, not just the zealots! And he's not just a human, he seems more like a Protoss mentally.
As for Kerrigan in that picture, it seems like she just came out of stealth mode from the side and is head-shotting the zealots, who are advancing not on her, but forward, probably to some Zerg.
Also, the mission really did took place in a city on Tarsonis, not in space. The Sons of Korhal just routed the Protoss from the surface, who then retreated from Tarsonis.