What do you hate the most?

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Originally Posted by GRUNT

@ Protosswarrior

Demosquid's right when he said that you don't have to fast expand to keep up with Zerg. If a Zerg decides to fast expand, smashing their defence (even with spines crawlers) is very achievable off a single base.

It's the so-called 4-gate all-in, although as a Zerg player, I really don't feel that the attack is as 'all-in' as its name would indicate! A variation of this particular timing attack would be the 3-gate robo. Or it could be a 4-gate robo, I can't remember exactly :p.

I've lost to this my share of times, and it just packs such a punch that it can still kill fast-expanding Zerg even if they're aware that it's coming. Naturally, it's just off one base, but Immortals devour Spine Crawlers alive.

Zerglings only do 5 damage and Immortals have 1 armour, so even though the Immortals don't get a hardened shield bonus vs Zerglings, you'll find that Zerglings still take quite a while to bring down an Immortal, and your Immortals can really rip apart Spine Crawlers in the meantime.

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You forget ze queenz (2 usually) and that makes the ling/spine/queen combo very strong esp with Transfuse.

I already accepted Demo's suggestions, but there are some specific situations where 1 base works vs 2 base zerg. In most cases, you HAVE to break or damage that expo before the econ kicks in. On 1 base, zerg can make a lot of speedlings and if microed right are quite hard to deal with.

Immortal pushes do work sometimes, but they fail a lot of times too. If he gets 4+ spines and a few lings and 2 queens, you can't break it even with 1 Immortal followed by a second close one. And, it is all in because if you fail, you can't hold the ramp long enough because the lings eventually kill your front door gate ('term' used loosely) by just swarming the front ramp. You can get a sentry and even FF but by the time the FF wears off and you get a second one, he has mutas and you have zealots and 2-3 sentries vs a mass of lings knocking at the front, and about 5-6 mutas harassing your probes. Spire builds really fast you know...

I know what I need to do, but I'm giving you the scenarios I encountered on ladder top Gold (rank#1-3).

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Originally Posted by protoswarrior

It is easy to go: "Yeah! Phoenix beat mutas with the right Micro! Dumbass!"

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My phoenix post was more or less a joke btw. :P

Lag in 3v3 and 4v4, reaper rush, 4v4 against all terrans marine rush, mech, siege tanks, ultralisks since they suck, and 6 pool rushes.

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Originally Posted by Gradius

My phoenix post was more or less a joke btw. :P

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:P Sorry, I wasn't really aiming that at you ^_^;;;
More of a general remark.

Realistically, getting Phoenix requires good timing to keep muta numbers down, and being able to tech switch to templar/Blink stalkers at the right moment to counter hydra-ling tech switching from pure muta-ling is very important... If the tech switch is not spotted early enough, you're really screwed.

That's what I am aiming to work on.

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Originally Posted by GRUNT

@ Protosswarrior

Demosquid's right when he said that you don't have to fast expand to keep up with Zerg. If a Zerg decides to fast expand, smashing their defence (even with spines crawlers) is very achievable off a single base.

It's the so-called 4-gate all-in, although as a Zerg player, I really don't feel that the attack is as 'all-in' as its name would indicate! A variation of this particular timing attack would be the 3-gate robo. Or it could be a 4-gate robo, I can't remember exactly :p.

I've lost to this my share of times, and it just packs such a punch that it can still kill fast-expanding Zerg even if they're aware that it's coming. Naturally, it's just off one base, but Immortals devour Spine Crawlers alive.

Zerglings only do 5 damage and Immortals have 1 armour, so even though the Immortals don't get a hardened shield bonus vs Zerglings, you'll find that Zerglings still take quite a while to bring down an Immortal, and your Immortals can really rip apart Spine Crawlers in the meantime.

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Originally Posted by protoswarrior

You forget ze queenz (2 usually) and that makes the ling/spine/queen combo very strong esp with Transfuse.

I already accepted Demo's suggestions, but there are some specific situations where 1 base works vs 2 base zerg. In most cases, you HAVE to break or damage that expo before the econ kicks in. On 1 base, zerg can make a lot of speedlings and if microed right are quite hard to deal with.

Immortal pushes do work sometimes, but they fail a lot of times too. If he gets 4+ spines and a few lings and 2 queens, you can't break it even with 1 Immortal followed by a second close one. And, it is all in because if you fail, you can't hold the ramp long enough because the lings eventually kill your front door gate ('term' used loosely) by just swarming the front ramp. You can get a sentry and even FF but by the time the FF wears off and you get a second one, he has mutas and you have zealots and 2-3 sentries vs a mass of lings knocking at the front, and about 5-6 mutas harassing your probes. Spire builds really fast you know...

I know what I need to do, but I'm giving you the scenarios I encountered on ladder top Gold (rank#1-3).

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i think you should listen to grunt, hes a good player iirc, and i agree with his overall assessment: i was thinking the same thing after reading your first posts here; i would like to elaborate on the reasoning behind it:

.... i have played zerg, and been in that position feeling very comfortable vs protoss IF and WHEN im able to get my FE + spire up in peace.
Lets get one thing clear: spire does not build fast. 100 esconds is the longest build time in the game to my knowledge; its just as long as a dark shrine.

climbing the ladders i increasingly realized that the better players were'nt gonna let me do that in peace, and while that neednt end the game for me, it did level the playing field.

That was months ago now, and protoss ability to deal with mutas has improved since then but i keep that mindset when playing zerg vs protoss: i need to deal with that timing push and unless i pull off some earlygame magic that delays him, i cant count on getting my mutas out before getting pushed.

.... when understanding why early pressure vs zerg is so important, it helps to understand the dynamics of zerg economy management / unit production: if you are not even threatening with aggressive movements, a good zerg opponent will see that and adapt to it by getting a higher ratio of drones sooner.

what this boils down to is that - especially at this point of the game - its quite hurtful for a zerg player to even get slightly inched towards any corner of insecurity; because he will be forced to make units - units that he'd rather make later (when he's powered his econ faster than you, to afford higher numbers than you!)

in any push or aggression, its obviously very beneficial to actually inflict economic or structural damage, but vs zerg , especially in that 'late earlygame' , you are in a sense doing that with the aggression itself: if he sees more units than he can currently handle - he will slow down drone production! mission accomplished!


dont get too caught up in the details: there are man different ways to do things, but if your FE vs FE philosophy is giving you trouble, try to incorporate some early pressure before / as you expand - in a shape that suits you.

i think the implementation of your early push(/es) becomes important here: im sure there are many ways to do it, i think the important thing is to commit o being aggressive - as in moving units close to him - threatening confrontation - however, you should be careful not to over commit; not be afraid of withdrawing. (because if he successfully kills much of your attack force, he'll be confident in powering drones yet again)

(arguments count for much more than the rank of who they're coming from - but if it matters to you, i was mid-rank diamond)



what i personally "hate teh most" ?

I didnt play much melee the last week or so before closing, but what i do remember getting annoyed by was random players going proxy or other hard-to-predict early cheese... the way you need to scout and build defensively early against random players, to be ready for a variety of cheese that might not arrive - which in turn is hard to turn into aggression and easily leaves you at a disadvantage, should they be playing more standardized openers.

Thanks for the advice Todie, I welcome it. And no, rank is not my primary concern. I was just saying it to give people a sense of the level of play we're talking about here. There is a huge difference between top 5 gold and ranks from 10-6. The latter are closer to top Silver, whereas top 5 gold is closer to intermediary Platinum.

Terrans. They really grind my gears. they were annoying in sc1 and they are even more annoying in sc2. all the beta maps favor terran in one way or another. And if you mis time your attack by just a little bit you will get slaughtered by tanks and bunkers. Terrans are way too versitile. Toss has to work alot harder to win against terran and it angers me.

So far, I don't have any major dislikes...

Not a real big fan of Void Rays, though...but learning to counter them effectively with Marines and stim has lessened that dislike.

unsuspected cannon rush kills me and grinds my gears. then i have dreams of beating up the guy that did it to me.

Ghosts.

Cannon rushes. They never work on me (yet) but it just annoys me when i think about what the other player was thinking, something along the lines of "I don't really feel like playing so i'll just do my no skill required cannon rush"

If canon rushes don't work often, doesn't that imply there is a high skill level involved, and therefore the rusher must be very, very good to make it work? Canon rushes are almost always all-in, and almost always fail, but I respect people who try them, because they're willing to do weird, very difficult strategies like that.

6-pool bothers me, getting out 2 zealots in time is super difficult, and I usually drop my first literally a second after I get a run-by, meaning my early economy gets hulk-smashed.

Siege tanks are a pain as well, beating them as Protoss requires B grade micro, and I'm usually not more than a C. Phoenix with grav-lift tend to work the best, but if you don't get the timing between your phoenix and your ground army spot on you risk all sorts of failure. Phoenix are too early, and you could lose several, meaning you won't be able to hold all your tanks, Phoenix too late, and you may lose half your army to a siege volley before they get lifted up.

cannon rush almost always work on me =( when i see them put up a pylon in my base i panic and do something stupid

turtling sieg tanks are annoying. i panic when my army gets hit by a sieg tank also.

Fast tech is the only thing that really causes me to panic. Whenever I see it coming I get into some kind of rush for the counter, which I always get too late, because my scouting is sub-par.

The fact that SCVs are targetable while they build, and that their movement is completely random while they do.

1) Make the SCV go 'inside' (this has already been brought up in previous threads)
2) Random =/= SC. (except for SCV building) :(

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Originally Posted by Roland

If canon rushes don't work often, doesn't that imply there is a high skill level involved, and therefore the rusher must be very, very good to make it work? Canon rushes are almost always all-in, and almost always fail, but I respect people who try them, because they're willing to do weird, very difficult strategies like that.

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It is all in yes your right in that respect, but the fact that it requires no micro (aside from slipping the probe in which is a matter of hugging the wall or even being in a expansion) nor does it require macro, you build a forge then build cannons when you get the minerals. No scouting is involved, no unit counters, no control groups nothing. It's a very simplistic "nooby" tactic used to catch other noobs or unsuspecting players offguard, which in respect to what you said can be slightly difficult depending on the players thoroughness.

Protoss.

2 gate proxy zealots(chrono'd), and banshees...

I can handle banshees, but 2 gate proxy tends to always catch me off guard and is annoying even though I have a sentry.

I hate stupid newbies that think they're good but won't leave the game after you just raped them hardcore.

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Originally Posted by whitefire

Terrans. They really grind my gears. they were annoying in sc1 and they are even more annoying in sc2. all the beta maps favor terran in one way or another. And if you mis time your attack by just a little bit you will get slaughtered by tanks and bunkers. Terrans are way too versitile. Toss has to work alot harder to win against terran and it angers me.

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I agree. Marauders have so much HP, that all T1 Protoss units take their sweet time to kill them. Without charge, the Zealots cannot even touch them. Stalkers are weaker and cost more. Then we have EMP...
Void Rays used to rape Marauder-heavy builds, but they're so easily countered by Marines, that it isn't a good idea anymore, specially after the range nerf. They take so much time to start doing damage, that they're virtually useless in a normal fight.
PvZ and PvP is much better than going against the Terrans.

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Originally Posted by ChAoS

I hate stupid newbies that think they're good but won't leave the game after you just raped them hardcore.

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This too!

Fuck, I can't stand those newbs. And the funny thing is : I end up pwning their ass bad and humiliate them, but they still don't get it... sad.

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Originally Posted by protoswarrior

This too!

Fuck, I can't stand those newbs. And the funny thing is : I end up pwning their ass bad and humiliate them, but they still don't get it... sad.

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Not everyone would leave a game after the first problem. Why do you need the game to end so fast, anyways?

I'm not talking about "the first problem"...

It's the point where I have 4 bases to his 2, and an army that just destroyed his completely where he only has workers and production buildings left. I proceed to kill 90% of his buildings in both bases, but he goes on to either:

- build CC's everywhere, or float his CC's away with no production going on, and I have like 1 Void Ray hunting down CC's with a large ground army scouring the map for hidden buildings...

or

- A zerg just throwing down random hatcheries everywhere with no tech buildings at all... ANd the hatches arent even near a resource node...

- A protoss doing the same with a hidden nexus and Pylons all over the place...

I have superior map control, army and economy and all my production facilities intact and I'm at about 150/200, and gearing up to max out. He has NOTHING. THAT IS BS, & SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED... The reveal player mechanic was supposed to stop this, but it's broken... So My hate is legit.

i annoy guys by cheesing and they in turn annoy me by building ccs all over the place:D

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Originally Posted by protoswarrior

I'm not talking about "the first problem"...

It's the point where I have 4 bases to his 2, and an army that just destroyed his completely where he only has workers and production buildings left. I proceed to kill 90% of his buildings in both bases, but he goes on to either:

- build CC's everywhere, or float his CC's away with no production going on, and I have like 1 Void Ray hunting down CC's with a large ground army scouring the map for hidden buildings...

or

- A zerg just throwing down random hatcheries everywhere with no tech buildings at all... ANd the hatches arent even near a resource node...

- A protoss doing the same with a hidden nexus and Pylons all over the place...

I have superior map control, army and economy and all my production facilities intact and I'm at about 150/200, and gearing up to max out. He has NOTHING. THAT IS BS, & SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED... The reveal player mechanic was supposed to stop this, but it's broken... So My hate is legit.

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Oh, yes, that's definitely taking it too far :D
On the other hand, you have people that says GG to you as fast as they kill your natural (basically saying that you lost the game). It's a pretty bad situation, but in some cases can be reverted, specially if he lost a lot of units to accomplish that. It's not 100% assured defeat.

Marines and Marauders. Uggghhhhhh.

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Originally Posted by Norfindel

Oh, yes, that's definitely taking it too far :D
On the other hand, you have people that says GG to you as fast as they kill your natural (basically saying that you lost the game). It's a pretty bad situation, but in some cases can be reverted, specially if he lost a lot of units to accomplish that. It's not 100% assured defeat.

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Lol yeah! Those ppl are stupid as well :P They do that and I'm like "WTF? I'm killing your workers with DTs right now ;) Go check your main."

Thats it. I take back everything that I said about the game. The only thing that ticks me off is having a Noooob partner. This is the pure bane of the game.

i hate creep tumors

I've started to get very anoying at SIEGE TANKS! Ever since they fixed the splash centering correctly they are just bring DEATH and PAIN from above!

I'm starting to really hate siege tanks in siege mode... They should get more use in their normal mode and less use in siege mode.

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Originally Posted by Norfindel

I agree. Marauders have so much HP, that all T1 Protoss units take their sweet time to kill them. Without charge, the Zealots cannot even touch them. Stalkers are weaker and cost more. Then we have EMP...
Void Rays used to rape Marauder-heavy builds, but they're so easily countered by Marines, that it isn't a good idea anymore, specially after the range nerf. They take so much time to start doing damage, that they're virtually useless in a normal fight.
PvZ and PvP is much better than going against the Terrans.

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Terrans have the luxury of just sitting in their base and macroing up an army until they feel comfortable to move out. That and terran units have too much sinergy with eachother. Marine/marauder/medivac dosnt have a clear visible weakness and any strategy against it can be beat with a minor tweak. either ghosts or viking. Marine/tank has no clear weakness either. Mech,1/1/1,M3, harras are all to versitile because all of the terran units cover another ones weaknesses. To compare Ill use Zealot/stalker/collosus/ THe collosus is clearly the weakest line because 4 or 5 vikings can snipe the collosi out and the other terran units can mop up the rest. Zealot/stalker/sentry is countered completely by emp. my point is that terran can counter a unit mixture with one unit where ar toss and zerg need an elabortae strategy to counter.

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Originally Posted by Twilice

I've started to get very anoying at SIEGE TANKS! Ever since they fixed the splash centering correctly they are just bring DEATH and PAIN from above!

I'm starting to really hate siege tanks in siege mode... They should get more use in their normal mode and less use in siege mode.

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all of the old strats for dealing with tanks no longer apply and that make tanks so strong. for example in sc1 zerg has swarm to deal with tanks now they dont and there is no clear counter strategy due to terran unit synergy. The best ways Imo to deal with tanks is to burrow move roaches or infesters next to the tanks but even that is easily stopped by scans, turrets and ravens. Toss can use immortals but marines/marauders/ghosts/thors/banshees/raven/battlecuriser are all good aganst immortals. Thats half of the terran arsenal

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Originally Posted by whitefire

Marine/tank has no clear weakness either.

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But at least the Marines would be killed by their own Tanks if Zealots get near. Unfortunately, Marauders won't be killed at all with Medevac support. It's a regenerative steel wall. Also, Slow prevents the Zealots from getting close fast.
The Tank dealing 60 dmg with splash to all kind of units makes Zealots really short-lived.
If at least the Immortal were a reliable damage soaker. Hell, i would accept it to have a way lower attack if it was more damage resistant. I don't even need that kind of damage dealing, just keep the damage away from the rest of my units. Protoss units don't last enough anymore to not need some kind of damage soaker. There's too much dps dealed out there.

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Originally Posted by Norfindel

But at least the Marines would be killed by their own Tanks if Zealots get near. Unfortunately, Marauders won't be killed at all with Medevac support. It's a regenerative steel wall. Also, Slow prevents the Zealots from getting close fast.
The Tank dealing 60 dmg with splash to all kind of units makes Zealots really short-lived.
If at least the Immortal were a reliable damage soaker. Hell, i would accept it to have a way lower attack if it was more damage resistant. I don't even need that kind of damage dealing, just keep the damage away from the rest of my units. Protoss units don't last enough anymore to not need some kind of damage soaker. There's too much dps dealed out there.

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I know alot of the terran units either deal alot of damage or have a high dps. zealots are useless without charge and you need more stalkers then they have marauders to win. Stalkers are more expensive and stim will totally destroy a group of stalkers. there are only three units that dont get wasted by emp and thats carrier/collosus/mother ship and the Mship will still get pretty messed up by it. every other toss unit has 100 shields or less. ya the shields recharge faster but thats only once they leave combat but ghosts and marauders make it so you cant leave the battle. every attack will cost the toss more than the terran.

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Originally Posted by whitefire

I know alot of the terran units either deal alot of damage or have a high dps. zealots are useless without charge and you need more stalkers then they have marauders to win. Stalkers are more expensive and stim will totally destroy a group of stalkers. there are only three units that dont get wasted by emp and thats carrier/collosus/mother ship and the Mship will still get pretty messed up by it. every other toss unit has 100 shields or less. ya the shields recharge faster but thats only once they leave combat but ghosts and marauders make it so you cant leave the battle. every attack will cost the toss more than the terran.

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whitefire, no offense, but you have no idea what you're talking about.

Marauders are easily dealt with if you use a unit combination of zealots and stalkers. Either unit alone cannot deal with them. And you absolutely need sentries. They're one of the 2nd units you could get from a gateway. Using 1-2 well placed forcefields will greatly increase the effectiveness of zealots.
Until you get charge (and sometimes even after that), sentries are crucial.

With regards to Ghost tech, if you don't have charge before ghost tech and you're planning on getting charge for your zealots, then you're really too slow on it. Ghost Academy costs a lot of time and resources to build, so do ghosts. And every ghost costs 150/150 which is a HUGE investment for the Terran.

By the time ghosts are out, you should have an archives up with storm researching. Meanwhile, you still have charge-zealot/stalkers and a couple of sentries to defend. I wrote up a short guide for Norfindel on PvT in the Protoss Players thread. You should check it out. Ghosts become less and less effective as you progress into the later stages of mid-game where you have 3+ expos and you're planning to get tier 3 tech or Void Rays.

An excellent example of how to play PvT is the game Kiwikakki v Painuser on Metalopolis where he uses zealot/stalker/sentry then mostly zealot/HT/few stalkers and then transitions into 4 robo colossi when Terran overcommits to a huge ground force of infantry and tanks. No amount of ghost/MMM/Tank/Raven could save him.

It all comes down to building a strong backbone of an economy and using it to constantly make cost-efficient units like zealots with charge and High Templar with storm. These are going to enable you to have the resources necessary to make expansions and further consolidate your strong and growing economy. This money will be used later to go into something like 4 robo colossi, or 4-5 stargate voidrays, or even 3-4 stargate carriers.

I've also seen more "lightweight" transitions during mid-game with Phoenix by Day9 after doing a DT opening into zealot/stalker/sentry/HT. The Phoenix are used to lift siege tanks and marauders while your ground does mop-up duty.


whitefire, I think you really haven't seen enough PvT to give advice on it. Please don't mislead people with wrong advice. Based on my personal experience, there are so many ways to deal with Marauders. But the real DPS is not them. It's marines. On Korean servers, you can mostly see marine+tanks as opening builds as opposed to marauder+marine play. That is because their DPS is insanely better than M&M.

Norfindel's issue with Immortals is only legit to an extent... Immortals DO absorb a lot of damage. The thing to remember is to use Immortals sparingly due to its high cost and to know that you make AN immortal when you need to bolster defense when retreating from a marauder heavy force. Or, if you're already facing heavy mech and no ghosts, having a few Immortals never hurts (if you were planning a Colossus transition to begin with).


I know you haven't played in the beta and have been watching a lot of videos. But let me be frank with you. Your knowledge from those videos compared to what you learn as you play is COMPLETELY different. You cannot understand the timing and damage for each unit type or composition and the timing when a certain tech is even possible by just watching videos online. You need to play to know that. Hence, please don't give advice.

By all means, share your opinion, but state it clearly that it is that: your opinion. Let people who have more experience with the game to provide the advice needed.

Again, not trying to be mean or anything, I'm just telling it as it is, mostly because 8 years ago, I was in your shoes on the Starcraft Strategy forum for BW...

That one hero infestor which mind controls your siege tank, immortal, colossus, thor, ultralisks, or other advanced unit that end up getting like 20 kills D:

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Originally Posted by protoswarrior

whitefire, no offense, but you have no idea what you're talking about.

Marauders are easily dealt with if you use a unit combination of zealots and stalkers. Either unit alone cannot deal with them. And you absolutely need sentries. They're one of the 2nd units you could get from a gateway. Using 1-2 well placed forcefields will greatly increase the effectiveness of zealots.
Until you get charge (and sometimes even after that), sentries are crucial.

With regards to Ghost tech, if you don't have charge before ghost tech and you're planning on getting charge for your zealots, then you're really too slow on it. Ghost Academy costs a lot of time and resources to build, so do ghosts. And every ghost costs 150/150 which is a HUGE investment for the Terran.

By the time ghosts are out, you should have an archives up with storm researching. Meanwhile, you still have charge-zealot/stalkers and a couple of sentries to defend. I wrote up a short guide for Norfindel on PvT in the Protoss Players thread. You should check it out. Ghosts become less and less effective as you progress into the later stages of mid-game where you have 3+ expos and you're planning to get tier 3 tech or Void Rays.

An excellent example of how to play PvT is the game Kiwikakki v Painuser on Metalopolis where he uses zealot/stalker/sentry then mostly zealot/HT/few stalkers and then transitions into 4 robo colossi when Terran overcommits to a huge ground force of infantry and tanks. No amount of ghost/MMM/Tank/Raven could save him.

It all comes down to building a strong backbone of an economy and using it to constantly make cost-efficient units like zealots with charge and High Templar with storm. These are going to enable you to have the resources necessary to make expansions and further consolidate your strong and growing economy. This money will be used later to go into something like 4 robo colossi, or 4-5 stargate voidrays, or even 3-4 stargate carriers.

I've also seen more "lightweight" transitions during mid-game with Phoenix by Day9 after doing a DT opening into zealot/stalker/sentry/HT. The Phoenix are used to lift siege tanks and marauders while your ground does mop-up duty.


whitefire, I think you really haven't seen enough PvT to give advice on it. Please don't mislead people with wrong advice. Based on my personal experience, there are so many ways to deal with Marauders. But the real DPS is not them. It's marines. On Korean servers, you can mostly see marine+tanks as opening builds as opposed to marauder+marine play. That is because their DPS is insanely better than M&M.

Norfindel's issue with Immortals is only legit to an extent... Immortals DO absorb a lot of damage. The thing to remember is to use Immortals sparingly due to its high cost and to know that you make AN immortal when you need to bolster defense when retreating from a marauder heavy force. Or, if you're already facing heavy mech and no ghosts, having a few Immortals never hurts (if you were planning a Colossus transition to begin with).


I know you haven't played in the beta and have been watching a lot of videos. But let me be frank with you. Your knowledge from those videos compared to what you learn as you play is COMPLETELY different. You cannot understand the timing and damage for each unit type or composition and the timing when a certain tech is even possible by just watching videos online. You need to play to know that. Hence, please don't give advice.

By all means, share your opinion, but state it clearly that it is that: your opinion. Let people who have more experience with the game to provide the advice needed.

Again, not trying to be mean or anything, I'm just telling it as it is, mostly because 8 years ago, I was in your shoes on the Starcraft Strategy forum for BW...

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Im well aware that you have a better veiw with the game and that marauders are easy to deal with. my biggest concern is how easy if it for terrans to counter units. I also dont like how easy it is for terran to support their forces. Im well aware the marines are the main dps in an infantry force. both our points are valid but I have a feeling that you misunderstood some of my points. First off I was comparing the ease at which terran can kill certain unit mixtures by taking advantage of one unit in the mix.

Im also stating that terrans have a much easyer time defending their base and dictating the course and speed at which the game is played. I am by no means implying that Toss and zerg cant do the same but that its easyer for terran.

I have seen a great deal of PvT and frankly the only toss I've seen win against terran frequently is WhiteRa. I know that there are thousands of replays out there and that I am only privy to a few of them but for some one that dosnt have the game I still have a decent grasp on it. So please dont talk down to me just because you had the privilage of playing the beta.

I also know that a strong economy is nessisay for playing toss. It is for all races and constant crhonoboosting of probes past the early game is something I rarely see from toss players. Also I would like to point out that I see alot of toss stuck in the ball mentality where they try to mass x/y/z and a move to win. The warp prism turns all of the gateway units into harrasment unit with warpgates. So in that respece the terran only have three harrasment units where as the toss has seven if not more. I would also like to point out that I can see alot of mistakes and strats that people that have the beta dont see because they are in the heat of battle durring a game.

I never said that those points in my previous post were fact and I apologise if that was unclear. Some of my points might not be valid in most situations and my extremely biased hatred for terran may have made a few of them irrelivant, but to say that I have no clue what im talking about is silly as I have a good grasp on the strategy just not the timing. If you want to talk strategy and help me get an even better grasp on the game that would be apriciated.

I wasn't talking down to you, and I'm sorry if it seems that way.

There are a lot of players like Huk, Tester, KawaiiRice alongside Whitera that are good Protoss who have taught me how to play the matchup since their understanding of it is WAY up there. I am only a Gold level player, but watching these Protosses gave me the way/ways to deal with marauders which used to be my bane during my Silver days. This goes to show that it isn't impossible by any means. Lack of knowledge was what was always against me. By Knowledge I'm not talking just strategy, but timing of the strategy, the build order and the follow-through, as well as the end-result unit composition to aim for. ALL of this leads to understanding the matchup at a deeper level.

Marauders are only 1 single aspect of the matchup that tends to be focussed to much on that the remaining supporting units are ignored in the equation.

And, I completely disagree with you that it is easier for a Terran due to Marauders. That is ABSOLUTELY false. Marauders are kind of like Immortals and Colossi in their role. They are exceptional damage dealers and damage helpers in certain ratios/numbers. The slow and stim combo make them so strong. The weakness they have though is chargelot/stalker/FF combo, or storm/colossi, and of course any air unit that can hit or disable it.

Protoss players all around the beta tend to think too passively to be able to play the matchup as it should be, and thus you will always find them lagging in macro or tech or upgrades. They don't understand what strategy to use and how to make it work to follow-up with a higher tech which will nullify any earlygame advantage an aggressive Marauder-heavy Terran will get.

For Terran, you may think it's just stim > A-move. Not true. Terran HAS to make sure his marines are BEHIND his marauders and he has to constantly watch his army to ensure he does not get FF'ed in half and losing his marauders/rines to zealots that can now "access" them. Also, Terrans who go bio have an incredibly hard time trying to EMP or dodge storms while trying to kite Protoss units. Terran base-management is very very micro-intensive. I will admit there is RELATIVELY less micro involved to control a Terran army, but it is not vastly inferior to the micro a Protoss needs. Far from it.

Again, I apologise if you took it as me talking down to you, because it was just a blanket statement that I had thought I had tied to why I said it, but anyways.

In terms of PvT Strategy, I think you know what units are involved in the equation.

Protoss: Zealots, Stalkers, Sentries.
Terran (bio): Marines, Marauders, maybe 1 Ghost or 2

In early game, Protoss needs to know how to use his tools. Early in the Beta, Protosses were just spamming zealot/Stalker randomly or stalker/sentry, or all 3 but then using a move without being careful of position, army-size, or composition. AND, to-date most Protoss just clump all units in Group Hotkey -1 . Very bad thing to do. Even in small numbers, the rules of flanking still work vs a marauder/marine combo, and normally, the dynamic of a flank will make EMPs less effective since units will be more spread out in a concave.

The later follow-up after dealing with an early marauder timing push should be some tech that will carry you through late-game, allowing you to expand and macro up a strong army to decimate the Terran. The strategy is to get early charge-zealots combined with stalkers/sentry to help them kill off any aggression from MMM bio. Then transition into HT with storm, or Colossi, and basically defend against any other pushes or harassment and to slowly gain map control.

Once you have enough bases/resources, you think about late-game and what tech you need based on what you see:

Mass tank/marauder/ravens with rine support, or Viking/Tank/MM+ghost, or Banshee/Tank/MMM.

You tech to something to deal with that accordingly. Amongst good/equally skilled players, it will always come down to control and macro. The strategy is to find the path, walking it is a different story. That's what makes or breaks the game in this matchup. The balance is extremely fragile, and it is right where it should be. I used to think Marauders were OP only because I didn't know how to handle them.

I am just here to say that there is a way to deal with them, and that there is nothing OP about Marauders. Also, the course of the game and its pace is not dictated by the Terran, but rather the player who is the most aggressive in what he is doing: be it teching/macroing/expanding/harassing/rushing. The player who is passive about any of it will lag behind and will have a hard time catching up, and sometimes he will never catch up until he changes his frame of mind.

Having this illusion in your head that "Marauders are fucking OP" is really counterproductive and really restricts how you react as a player to the unit. Once you learn to let go, you learn that there are sooo many ways to deal with it using known units and the compositions you've been using to-date.

/wall of text :p

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Twilice

What does really grind you gears? Is it those early reaper rushes? Maybe it's the proxy pylon + canon rush? Is it when you hear the "nuclear launch detected" sound but you can't find the damned dot?
Maybe it's those damned economy harrasments with mutalisks.

I know mine for sure, it's when you build your things with terran and the enemy scouters start to attack them..... You have to pull away atleast 1 worker from the minerals, stop building (most problary) for a second and start attack the scout. It's even more anoying when it starts to run and get away with 5 hp.

Hidden Content:

*For stupid people like the ones not realising I'm not a twilight fan it's posted in STRATEGY. So it has nothing to do with b.net.

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Nukes arn't as bad as they use to be, in bw you could hide the dot under a floating building >< which was popular to for a terran in bw to have.

I hate when newbs waste ya time after me n tychus rape em so bad I swear theys only not leaving cause they crying from the anal pain.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by protoswarrior

I wasn't talking down to you, and I'm sorry if it seems that way.

There are a lot of players like Huk, Tester, KawaiiRice alongside Whitera that are good Protoss who have taught me how to play the matchup since their understanding of it is WAY up there. I am only a Gold level player, but watching these Protosses gave me the way/ways to deal with marauders which used to be my bane during my Silver days. This goes to show that it isn't impossible by any means. Lack of knowledge was what was always against me. By Knowledge I'm not talking just strategy, but timing of the strategy, the build order and the follow-through, as well as the end-result unit composition to aim for. ALL of this leads to understanding the matchup at a deeper level.

Marauders are only 1 single aspect of the matchup that tends to be focussed to much on that the remaining supporting units are ignored in the equation.

And, I completely disagree with you that it is easier for a Terran due to Marauders. That is ABSOLUTELY false. Marauders are kind of like Immortals and Colossi in their role. They are exceptional damage dealers and damage helpers in certain ratios/numbers. The slow and stim combo make them so strong. The weakness they have though is chargelot/stalker/FF combo, or storm/colossi, and of course any air unit that can hit or disable it.

Protoss players all around the beta tend to think too passively to be able to play the matchup as it should be, and thus you will always find them lagging in macro or tech or upgrades. They don't understand what strategy to use and how to make it work to follow-up with a higher tech which will nullify any earlygame advantage an aggressive Marauder-heavy Terran will get.

For Terran, you may think it's just stim > A-move. Not true. Terran HAS to make sure his marines are BEHIND his marauders and he has to constantly watch his army to ensure he does not get FF'ed in half and losing his marauders/rines to zealots that can now "access" them. Also, Terrans who go bio have an incredibly hard time trying to EMP or dodge storms while trying to kite Protoss units. Terran base-management is very very micro-intensive. I will admit there is RELATIVELY less micro involved to control a Terran army, but it is not vastly inferior to the micro a Protoss needs. Far from it.

Again, I apologise if you took it as me talking down to you, because it was just a blanket statement that I had thought I had tied to why I said it, but anyways.

In terms of PvT Strategy, I think you know what units are involved in the equation.

Protoss: Zealots, Stalkers, Sentries.
Terran (bio): Marines, Marauders, maybe 1 Ghost or 2

In early game, Protoss needs to know how to use his tools. Early in the Beta, Protosses were just spamming zealot/Stalker randomly or stalker/sentry, or all 3 but then using a move without being careful of position, army-size, or composition. AND, to-date most Protoss just clump all units in Group Hotkey -1 . Very bad thing to do. Even in small numbers, the rules of flanking still work vs a marauder/marine combo, and normally, the dynamic of a flank will make EMPs less effective since units will be more spread out in a concave.

The later follow-up after dealing with an early marauder timing push should be some tech that will carry you through late-game, allowing you to expand and macro up a strong army to decimate the Terran. The strategy is to get early charge-zealots combined with stalkers/sentry to help them kill off any aggression from MMM bio. Then transition into HT with storm, or Colossi, and basically defend against any other pushes or harassment and to slowly gain map control.

Once you have enough bases/resources, you think about late-game and what tech you need based on what you see:

Mass tank/marauder/ravens with rine support, or Viking/Tank/MM+ghost, or Banshee/Tank/MMM.

You tech to something to deal with that accordingly. Amongst good/equally skilled players, it will always come down to control and macro. The strategy is to find the path, walking it is a different story. That's what makes or breaks the game in this matchup. The balance is extremely fragile, and it is right where it should be. I used to think Marauders were OP only because I didn't know how to handle them.

I am just here to say that there is a way to deal with them, and that there is nothing OP about Marauders. Also, the course of the game and its pace is not dictated by the Terran, but rather the player who is the most aggressive in what he is doing: be it teching/macroing/expanding/harassing/rushing. The player who is passive about any of it will lag behind and will have a hard time catching up, and sometimes he will never catch up until he changes his frame of mind.

Having this illusion in your head that "Marauders are fucking OP" is really counterproductive and really restricts how you react as a player to the unit. Once you learn to let go, you learn that there are sooo many ways to deal with it using known units and the compositions you've been using to-date.

/wall of text :p

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I dont think that marauders are invincible just a really hard hurdle for most Toss players to over come. I actually have a counter strat to marauder heavy armies its +1 chargelot/sentry into blink stalkers/dts/chargelot and if you see the terran getting ghosts you get the armor upgrades to help dampen the effects of emp. use the dts to add some dps to your main army and to launch sneak attacks with warp prisms and dts. It sounds like a sound strat but im not sure about the timings and how fast it takes to get charge. I was thinking of a bo like 9-10 pylon 12 gate 14 core 16 2 more gates then counsil chrono charge then put down a robo for observers and prisms and lastly a dark shrine. It needs some fine tuning and im not sure where the forge would fit in of the timing for warpgate but I know a strat like that would work well to counter a terran bio strat.