Printable View
The medic was introduced to let marines serve a purpose mid-late gameQuote:
Originally Posted by MattII
before no one touched marines as soon as they got the factory. Marines were too weak to hold up against stronger foes. Thus the medic comes to help marines live longer
it had nothing to do with their stimpack ability draining their HP
Except that the Stimpack was the only thing keeping them competitive later in the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by RainbowToeSocks
However, in the early part, it was satisfactory. That's why Blizzard removed the Medic and replaced it with shields (for early/mid-game) and Medivacs for late game. Stim Packs in the absence of healing is still useful.Quote:
Originally Posted by unentschieden
Furthermore, the problem of comparing Probes with Marines is that the former is not a combat unit. My idea (Proton Charge damaging the units) is a lot safer since Probes will be using it when not in combat or to escape. So, the loss of hit points isn't as crucial as for a Marine.
Hit points loss is bad, as it's permanent. Spawn Larva and Mule have no permanent negative effects.
I can see Shield loss since ALL your probes effectively lose their defense or have it drain down upon activation, forcing a sense of risk-reward to use, as well as timing and making sure a harass won't come.
Permanent hit point loss means using this 3 times would allow your probes to be all destroyed by any sort of early-mid game harass (reapers, lings, stalker blink). This isn't something that is preventative or badly timed, this is simply impractical if you're replacing probes in the red. You can't use probes to kill lings since they'll pop REALLY fast.
Actually, Spawn Larva has a permanent negative effect. For every additional Larva diverted to mining, that's one less combat unit (since control and Larvae tend to be the rate limiter for Zerg production).Quote:
Originally Posted by Triceron
Moreover, while hit point loss is permanent for the individual Probe, it's not for the whole since the net gain should be enough to produce a replacement worker and still have change leftover. Therefore, the cumulative hit points of your workers will largely remain the same (as long as production can keep up with how much Proton Charge you use).
Problem with using shields is that they regenerate very quickly (since they'd naturally be out of combat). Even if there's a delay until shield regeneration, the probability of being attacked during such a period is low enough that it wouldn't act as a deterrent. I think this issue has been pointed out numerous times (about as often as shield loss has been suggested).Quote:
Originally Posted by Triceron
That's only true if you're not spending the additional resources you've mined. Those additional minerals could be spent on additional defenses and units that can protect your workers, harass your opponent, etc. Also, it should be pointed out that with Stalkers, even when down to 5 hit points, the Probes would only be killed quicker by 1 over the normal 4. Using Proton Charge once makes no impact whatsoever. With regards to D8 Mines and Banelings, they kill workers with equal efficiency regardless of the amount Proton Charge used.Quote:
Originally Posted by Triceron
Spawn Larva being diverted to creating more workers instead of combat units is not a negative effect, it is a choice. You're GAINING Larvae. You're complaining about a free steak because you have to cook it.
Shields regen quickly, but like I said, for the duration of proton charge it could drain or remove shields temporarily. For the duration that proton charge is up, your probes are all at half defense, meaning there is choice to when you want to use this ability. If the enemy chanced to scout and harass while you had proton charge activated, then you must react to protect your shield-less probes. This sort of risk makes a player keep on their toes.
Permanent damage on the individual probe is being applied to ALL effected probes, creating a net loss of hundreds of HP. For each 'tick' of lost HP from using Proton Charge is one less hit a zergling or reaper has to deal, making the loss of probes much faster in a harassment scenario.
You can argue that probes are weak anyways and HP doesn't matter, but it does matter. Watch some tournament games and see Probes fend off zergling rushes. Usually you see a loss of 3-4 probes; if HP of all those probes was reduced by one hit, that means each ling has more time to switch to and attack another target. This doesn't affect high-damage splash effects like D8 or banelings, but these aren't the only threats to workers.
It's a bad idea, stop defending it.
You might be gaining Larvae but you're also spending them, not to mention control, mostly on workers to keep up with mechanics that do not cost supply/psi.Quote:
Originally Posted by Triceron
Again, probability-wise, it won't be a deterrent. If the BR's are to be taken as a realistic representation, you have perhaps one or two raids in half an hour when the enemy really gets in and able to take out workers. Let's say Proton Charge + recovery time takes 60 seconds total. This means you have a 1 - 2/30 chance of running into a problem. Compared to the benefit, not too much of a concern. You're never going to go, "Oh dear, I might suddenly get ambushed without prior warning from enemy units that somehow snuck past my forward scouts."Quote:
Originally Posted by Triceron
What you described there is the balancing factor that's preventing it from getting spammed! If you're using Proton Charge, you'd best be using those extra minerals to replace the workers you're losing. For instance, if you use Proton Charge on 4 Probes, you'd best build one Probe (resulting in a net gain of +20 shield points) to compensate since using it another 3 times will kill those 4 Probes (whereby you break even by having replaced them with 4 brand new Probes).Quote:
Originally Posted by Triceron
From the way you're describing it, you're making it sound as if all your workers are going to be at near death's door when in fact, you'd only be using it repeatedly on a few Probes at a time. The number of Probes you have on Proton Charge at a time is proportional to your ability to replace them within a given time. Otherwise, you wind up with a non-sustainable economy and the opponent wouldn't even need to raid you. You'd kill all your Probes off yourself. The only time you'd want to go all out with all your Probes at once is when you need to rebuild or planning an all in attack/endgame.Quote:
Originally Posted by Triceron
Well, I think it's a good idea. Therefore, I'll continue to defend it. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Triceron
4 at a time?
Unless this is a completely outdated description, Proton Charge affects ALL probes in a given mineral field. You want this affecting as many as possible because it increases efficiency. Who is saying you would only use this on 4 at a time?Quote:
Proton Charge: an area-of-effect ability that gives all targeted Probes additional charge for their Proton-Cutters. Probes that have an additional charge gather additional minerals per trip when collecting resources. The Proton Charge lasts only a short time before dissipating.
Watch the battle report, you see an entire expansion with proton charge activated on all ~15 probes.
It's a subtle negative effect that has potential to screw you but has no lasting impact. If the con holds no threat or impact, then the player can use it to their hearts delight. However, this would add an incentive to the opposing player who may use early scouting to capitalize on their opponents weakness.Quote:
Compared to the benefit, not too much of a concern. You're never going to go, "Oh dear, I might suddenly get ambushed without prior warning from enemy units that somehow snuck past my forward scouts."
Permanent, irreparable damage inflicted for mineral efficiency carries through from beginning to end of game. A player who wishes to risk having all of their probes affected by proton charge 3 times to speed tech or mass some units shouldn't have to have a base full of probes in yellow or red. This makes their probes vulnerable at any time in the game. I simply suggest a window of vulnerability, not a persistent negative effect. To have such a permanent effect is like permanently lowering armor on SCVs every time you use Mules.
I'm guessing you didn't read the original post/suggestion, right?
Well if you're completely changing the mechanic like that then it's not proton charge in any form, and you shouldn't associate your idea as such.
And it's still a bad idea.