Crazy Jonny... your new sig is pimp.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy_Jonny
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Crazy Jonny... your new sig is pimp.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy_Jonny
Lol, Ive had it since BR2 doncha know? Well, when I was in Blizzforums anyways. Thanks anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gifted
Like the most of you, I'm getting worried that all the Zerg tactics that have been shown off and talked about how cool they are would be useless if there was a single detector out on the field. ughhhh
I don't think that's true actually. We haven't seen any solid Nydus/overseer activity. I'm also curious how easy observers will be to pick off from a zerg standpoint. Those are two solid counterpoints. We'll see how it goes in beta.
Another angle, I wonder if 1+ expansion for zerg is still equal, If that is the case than the zerg was essentially low on production/econ all game. It will be interesting to see how queens and high yeild minerals effect that.
You know I never considered this until now. Much of the Zerg's defining strength and characteristics is dependent on burrowing: burrow micro, infestor, lurker, roach micro. With detection made more widely attained this puts Zerg at a great disadvantage.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpiderBrigade
Imagine if the Zerg had a new ability which somehow negated detection? It would be devastating, but just might work in an interesting fashion if they could balance it. Perhaps if they put the ability on the Queen who is slow and costly to use, so there's risk in bringing her into the front lines.
...OR...
Imagine if the Zerg had an upgrade to their burrow ability which allowed the units to burrow deeper into the ground without suffocating? In order to detect deeply burrowed Zerg the player would need a double level of detection. Anotherwords, one observer isn't enough to spot the burrowed units, but if two of them overlapped the combined strength is enough to locate them. You'd also have to scan an area twice, or do it once while 1 Raven is present. A wacky idea, I realize, but a good way to extend the potential of this unique mechanic.
Deep burrowing takes longer to complete, leaving the unit more vulnerable during the process. This is especially important for lurkers who can easily be picked off before the submerge.
force field should be destroyable.
In comment to what Blazur said, Maybe the Overseer should get an ability kind of like ensnare which, when used on detectors, negates their detection abilities for a period of time.
out of 3 battle reports, i noticed that there aren't really any big battles like we see in broodwar. its pretty much back and forth between small squads of units. im wondering if this game's balance and how its played will allow the 80+ armies we see in broodwar.
great game though.
Well, in the game we saw, he would not have been able to attack the Observers at all unless he brought his Queens into the battle...or produced Corrupters, which would have been pretty useless against DK's ground army.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gifted
Interesting, but I think the "overlapping detectors" is a little too complicated.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blazur
This option sounds much more plausible - I would actually support an AoE full blinding ability (temporary of course) that only works on detector units - that way you don't have to be able to see observers to use it (although I guess you would be able to see it since it's on the Overseer...).Quote:
Originally Posted by RainbowToeSocks
Well they are trying to implement quicker means of production, like the Queen's larva spawn, the Terran Reactor add on, and Protoss Warp-In.Quote:
Originally Posted by warrior6
Airforce seems incredibly useless in this game. Why did the zerg not tech to mutas? Roach should get anti-air.
Roach should NOT get AA. The Hydra should be the Zerg's primary GTA. Remember, Zerg are cheap. They have a relatively easy time switching tech. The high regeneration and low cost of the Roach makes it already quite powerful, as was see in the new BR. In a fight between a Roach and Hydra, the Roach will win. If we want to keep the Hydra in the game, it needs a one-up on the Roach. That up is a longer range, and GTA ability. Also, as you said, air is looking quite weak. If we want to improve it, we need to make its counters less available or weaker. By making the Hydra more specialized in GTA, we make air stronger and give the Hydra a strong niche.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wankey
well, they've put hydras on a lower tier than roaches now... which makes a hell of a lot more sense. Back to their 1.5 tier
Roaches I believe are now tier 2?
This is just speculation, but I believe the reason we're not seeing high level tech / very in depth games is for the following reasons:
1) They're working to keep the Battle Reports somewhat short
2) During internal testing, those playing have most likely been given specific test criterial to test balance. And these are the games we're given to see
Example: Stick to units x,y,z. Try to maximize abilities x,y,z. Do not use this particular unit
3) They most likely don't want to show off EVERYTHING at once.
Gritten
I also have a firm belief that this BR3 is actually recorded before BR2.
No. Roaches are available right after Zerglings. They cost 100 minerals. Hydras have been lowered to the same tier, but they are generalists with powerful GTA, wheras the roach obliterates anything biological like Zealots or Marines.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wankey
DK actually could have done devastating damage if he'd produced more than that one Phoenix/Void Ray pair, since the Zerg player had nothing that could hit air except for Queens...on the other hand, he had Lair tech so he could have popped out some quick Corrupters which might be why DK stuck to ground troops.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wankey
Probably because the Protoss force consisted largely of Stalkers and Disrupters, which can both hit air. And he was at too much of an econ disadvantage to rush to mutas (he would have gotten swamped with ground troops before he got there).Quote:
Why did the zerg not tech to mutas?
You're kidding, right? No one would ever bother to build Hydralisks, at that point.Quote:
Roach should get anti-air.
You can really see how imba the protoss macro mechanic is in this battle report. I think the zerg and the protoss both look like a lot of fun to play but the zerg player just could not keep up economically. The banelings and the colossus took out a uge amount of protoss units and still David Kim was able to steam roll the other player... it wasnt even close.
I also have a problem with stalkers. Ive seen them used in this video as well as sonkie vs yellow and both times it seems with great micro the zerg just cant do damage fast enough to kill these things. I like blink dont get me wrong but there were so many roaches and he just couldnt kill them in time. I think nerfing the stalkers health a bit would be a good idea. No idea what to do about the macro mechanic though... it just seems too good to me.
Maybe if everytime you used it, it would hurt the probes health (not shields). That way you could only use it a few times and u would actally have to choose whether or not u wanted to use it or conserve probe health.
SPOILARS:
Nice fucking game. Although I feel they are somewhat pushing limitations for these battlereports. How did David produce zero Observers is beyond me, or even Dark Templar because the Zerg had no detection available. A couple of sneaky DTs would have ravaged the Zerg.
I did love to see Nullifiers get used. Force field is a very interesting, original and useful ability. Blink proves to make Stalkers twice more durable and effective. I also loved how burrow was used in such a good boosting form for the Zerg.
I am worried for air forces though. I am also worried about epic scale battles. Everything seems like squad battles, nothing epic about that. It's all pure micro, which is good... but having 100+ psi in the battlefield killing stuff is impressive on it's own.
I still hate this mechanic. It also looks totally ridiculous in the video.Quote:
Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid
Thats prolly a good idea. Either that or the Nullifier should loose its attack, and it shouldnt be able to attack air. It just seems to be too powerful in the early game, and thats why David got the economical advantage.Quote:
Originally Posted by warrior6
I do have to admit it makes the probes look kind of rediculous. I think giving the probes afterimages would be enough to indicate its being 'charged', it doesnt need a blinding bright shield.Quote:
I still hate this mechanic. It also looks totally ridiculous in the video.
So they now have 3 tier 1 units... what are Lair ground units then? Lurker?Quote:
Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid
I like your thought with this, and its a sensible way to add some risk to an otherwise powerful ability. I'm sure they could easily make it work lore-wise too.Quote:
Originally Posted by kxr1der
No they have 4, Zerglings, Banelings, Roaches and Hydralisks :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Wankey
Lair ground units are Infestors x)
I've never really understood tiers, tbh. Protoss branch in three directions, its fuxxed up.
As far as I can tell:
Tier 0 Hatchery - Drone, Overlord
Tier 1 - Zergling, Queen
Tier 1.5 - Roach, Hydralisk, Baneling
Tier 2 Lair - Overseer
Tier 2.5 - Nydus, Lurker, Mutalisk, Corruptor, Infestor
Tier 3 Hive - None
Tier 3.5 - Brood Lord, Ultralisk
Yeah i forgot Queen, LOL... So 5 Tier 1 units :D :D :DQuote:
Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid
Also, isnt Lurker tier 3.5?
Its always changing, but I assume with Hydra at 1.5 that Lurker will be in tier 2 and not tier 3.Quote:
Originally Posted by RamiZ
http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/7854/wow2h.jpg
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As a peurotoseu user, I have to say, I love the Nullifier. Though I agree, it's going to be EXTREMELY hard making maps balanced with skills like Force Field in the game. Rush tech to Nullifiers on a map with narrow ramps, and you can lock your opponent in his base the entire early game.
Nice BR all around, but I agree that one observer would have destroyed the Zerg, and Lurkers probably would have destroyed the Protoss. They showed that they know how to scout and what not, but they didn't do anything with the intel they scouted.
Awesome game. Anyone figure out how to download it?
Lol at goldfish inside Immortal's tank.
-Psi
A quick fix to force field is making attack-able. Attacking it makes it timeout faster or make it shrink in size so smaller units can go through like zerglings.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rizhall
It's definitely balance-able. I cannot wait for the beta.
Well lurkers are T3 for now, so I doubt he would have been able to pump them out. And they wouldn't have been any good against stalkers and immortals (which were the bulk of the P's army for a while).
And yeah, concerning forcefield, my first instinct was also that it should be made destroyable but that sort of removes what makes it unique: it's a spell, not a a construction or a summon. I think balancing it's energy cost or size is also a good way to go.
They're 20 minutes long on normal speed.Quote:
out of 3 battle reports, i noticed that there aren't really any big battles like we see in broodwar. its pretty much back and forth between small squads of units. im wondering if this game's balance and how its played will allow the 80+ armies we see in broodwar.
great game though.
How many 15-minute Korean games that you've seen involve big armies fighting big armies?
Guys, they're having fun. That's why DK didn't build observers, why MC didn't pressure in BR2, among other things. They're not playing to win.
And trying to figure out the Zerg tech-tree at this point I think is a crap-shoot. If the Hydralisk is tier 1, I doubt the Lurker is tier 3. And if the Hydralisk is tier 1, I doubt the Baneling or Roach is tier 1, simply because they seem to want 3 tier 1 units for every race. (Though I think the Terrans have 4...) But all-in-all, I can't really say.
Yeah, so true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldrius
Although in the match we saw (old, I know) Baneling appears to be post-Lair (so 2.5 I guess). I think this is a reasonable way to do it.
yeah wtf is that a fish???Quote:
Originally Posted by PsiWarp
Seriously blizzard, the in jokes are a little childish. This isn't Warcraft 3. Like the Raven guy bashes his console, and it crashes and he gives like a facepalm. Yeah, that'll be funny if it happens only when you press him like 50 times.
Fishy!! Wait- what? I must find this...
Definitely a little goldfish or similar carp-like fish. From Aiur, no doubt.
One other thing I thought of rewatching the video:
Queens. They have an attack - even a GtA attack which is cool in early game. However I think that using them in combat, basically ever, is a trap. Every time Yeon-Ho Lee took them into a fight he lost one or more of them, which then put him in a production disadvantage (which helped David Kim get the economic lead he had). Seems to me that the Queen should be treated as a mobile production building and kept far away from any skirmishes (unless she pops briefly in to use Razor Swarm).
Also, for those people saying that the ecnomic disadvantage was due to Proton Charge alone: David Kim had a substantial lead in worker count, even right after he lost a large number of probes to that baneling raid. Now, this might have something to do with Yeon-Ho Lee losing his Queens and not being able to keep up drone production, or it might have to do with Proton Charge allowing David Kim to build more probes, but it might also be that Lee didn't keep up with constant worker production the way you have to for solid macro.
What the heck are you guys talking about?Quote:
Originally Posted by PsiWarp
Simple: it would have slowed down his Colossus production. Granted, it would have also saved his Colossi. It was probably a mistake on his part.Quote:
Like others are saying, what was the deal with no observers?
A lot of the time when we see these things in BW, it is because both players decided to stop fighting each other and macro/tech for a while. That sort of thing happens when players have been playing the game long enough to know that attacking right now would only cause their death.Quote:
im wondering if this game's balance and how its played will allow the 80+ armies we see in broodwar.
Roaches getting anti-air would be entirely antithetical to making air useful in the game.Quote:
Airforce seems incredibly useless in this game. Why did the zerg not tech to mutas? Roach should get anti-air.
All of this information is outdated. 100 mineral Roaches were from the BlizzCon build, which was almost a year ago. That was also when Hydras were Tier 2. Now that Hydras are Tier 1 (something that changed after BlizzCon), how much Roaches cost and what tier they are on is entirely unknown.Quote:
Roaches are available right after Zerglings. They cost 100 minerals. Hydras have been lowered to the same tier, but they are generalists with powerful GTA, wheras the roach obliterates anything biological like Zealots or Marines.