Ultralisks Role?

What the heck is the ultralisk supposed to counter?

Marauders still kite the f*** out of them.

3 Siege tanks spread out of ultralisk splash range annhilates them.

The thor loses but brings the ultralisk down to about 50 health.

Stalkers with blink can kite the f*** out of them. Tho I suppose without blink they do get destroyed.

About 5 zealots with surround beat the ultralisk now.

I just don't get it... why would I ever go Ultra when I have brood lords which destory most all these units way better? (except Stalkers with blink)

5 Zealots have always been able to slaughter an Ultralisk.

Not everything is supposed to counter. I do agree they need to be worked on some more but not as a counter unit like say, the Immortal.

It is true that Ultralisks were a somewhat poor Hive-tech choice, but with this new patch, I can't really comment yet.

I do want to say though, that testing units in a vacuum doesn't give you a good idea of how good these units are, at all. For instance, in a big fight, with tons of units, the Protoss player has better things to do than try to try and spread out her/his Zealots so that they don't take splash. In fact, it would be almost impossible to do so in a large fight.

I definitely want to give the Ultralisk a shot with this patch! ^_^

What about Ultra + ling? Or Ultra + Roach? Or Ultra + Hydra? Doesn't that work?

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Originally Posted by Norfindel

What about Ultra + ling? Or Ultra + Roach? Or Ultra + Hydra? Doesn't that work?

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From my experience, the huge size of the ultralisk just gets in the way. They prevent many from attacking, completely block roaches, and lings... omg that is just a disaster. Hydras do work with them but they get pretty annoying for their size. Maybe more micro with hydras can make up for that but i find other units useless with the ultra. Lings can be good depending on how many you have.

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Originally Posted by moosh

What the heck is the ultralisk supposed to counter?

Marauders still kite the f*** out of them.

3 Siege tanks spread out of ultralisk splash range annhilates them.

The thor loses but brings the ultralisk down to about 50 health.

Stalkers with blink can kite the f*** out of them. Tho I suppose without blink they do get destroyed.

About 5 zealots with surround beat the ultralisk now.

I just don't get it... why would I ever go Ultra when I have brood lords which destory most all these units way better? (except Stalkers with blink)

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You failed to mention what they do to marines. :eek:
One or two Ultralisks, having just unleashed them, carve through the bulk of the terran army rather quickly.

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Originally Posted by SYL

From my experience, the huge size of the ultralisk just gets in the way. They prevent many from attacking, completely block roaches, and lings... omg that is just a disaster. Hydras do work with them but they get pretty annoying for their size. Maybe more micro with hydras can make up for that but i find other units useless with the ultra. Lings can be good depending on how many you have.

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They should really increase the range for the Ultra just enough so that it can reach over zerglings. I think it's silly that ultras just sit there when zerglings get the surround.

I think the idea of making them counter armored units is a good one. Right now Zerg has few options for marauders, tanks, and colosi. Taking some of that load off the roach and onto the ultralisk is a good idea. The problem is that the ultralisk simply isn't effective at that right now. I also think that they should be the Zerg's soft answer to blobs. Terran has tanks and Protoss has high templar. Zerg gets creamed every time by the M&M&M ball or stalker/sentry. Something that can take a beating while doing reasonable splash damage so that the rest of the army can do it's job. Right now they just get in the way.
________
HOW TO ROLL BLUNTS

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Originally Posted by TWD

I think the idea of making them counter armored units is a good one. Right now Zerg has few options for marauders, tanks, and colosi. Taking some of that load off the roach and onto the ultralisk is a good idea. The problem is that the ultralisk simply isn't effective at that right now. I also think that they should be the Zerg's soft answer to blobs. Terran has tanks and Protoss has high templar. Zerg gets creamed every time by the M&M&M ball or stalker/sentry. Something that can take a beating while doing reasonable splash damage so that the rest of the army can do it's job. Right now they just get in the way.

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I feel like brood lords just do a better job since most those armored units can't attack air anyway. And the Thor, which does attack air, leaves the brood lord with more health in a 1v1 battle than an ultralisk.

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Originally Posted by moosh

What the heck is the ultralisk supposed to counter?

Marauders still kite the f*** out of them.

3 Siege tanks spread out of ultralisk splash range annhilates them.

The thor loses but brings the ultralisk down to about 50 health.

Stalkers with blink can kite the f*** out of them. Tho I suppose without blink they do get destroyed.

About 5 zealots with surround beat the ultralisk now.

I just don't get it... why would I ever go Ultra when I have brood lords which destory most all these units way better? (except Stalkers with blink)

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What the Ultralisk needs is some sort of anti-kiting mechanic such as the Infestor's Fungal Growth or Frenzy. In other words, the Ultralisk doesn't excel well as an independent unit without support. Rather, it's a giant, lumbering powerhouse that serves under the lash of the Infestors.

Why is it that all the anti-armored units are...armored?

While I still think Blizzard don't really know what they want to do with this unit, and are going about fixing it hamfistedly, I must say this latest patch encourages me a little bit.

Giving them their speed upgrade innately and buffing their health is a step in the right direction.


I still doesn't fix the core faults with the ultralisk, but it's a step.

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Originally Posted by Norfindel

What about Ultra + ling? Or Ultra + Roach? Or Ultra + Hydra? Doesn't that work?

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Ultra+Roach doesn't work well because either Roaches prevent Ultras from attacking or Ultras prevent Roaches from attacking.
Ultra+Zerglings works quite well because Ultras can attack above Zerglings, and Zerglings can draw enemy fire away from the Ultras.
I haven't experimented much with Ultra+Hydra, but from what I've seen it's less impressive than I tought it would be.

Don't you see? they're supposed to run up and down to counter sentry forcefields! Hence the speed buff (to do it faster) and the extra health (to do it more times). It' s probably not even supposed to get in close.

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Originally Posted by ManjiSanji

Why is it that all the anti-armored units are...armored?

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so that they can be countered by other anti armored units xD

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Originally Posted by SYL

From my experience, the huge size of the ultralisk just gets in the way. They prevent many from attacking, completely block roaches, and lings... omg that is just a disaster. Hydras do work with them but they get pretty annoying for their size. Maybe more micro with hydras can make up for that but i find other units useless with the ultra. Lings can be good depending on how many you have.

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Seems like they would benefit from a size reduction. Special collision like the Colossus would be better, but would obscure the units under it, so it's probably not a good idea.

an ultralisk with 6 armor is nothing to sneeze at. Having a large army of ultralisk combined with the usually hydra, lings and some infestors can deal alot of damage to your army. Then when you try to push you might kill them all and leave just a small portion of your army. Just to see that he popped upp 7 new ultralisk from his main and a alot of hydras and lings from his expos.

I think what most players forget is that they got a heavy splash damage....... (and no kiting wasn't even close to possible that game, infestors would totally own mass marauders and he could easily beat them with tech switch to mutas, with a fairly balanced army consisting of more units it's impossible to kite aswell since the other units will be so slow.

I think most of you are just discussion on what either you think they are or games where you failed to use them.....

(it's not like a zerg players gets only ultras that is just stupid)

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Originally Posted by moosh

What the heck is the ultralisk supposed to counter?
Marauders still kite the f*** out of them.

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To be clear Mara conc shells dont work on massive, but with stim-mirco i guess you can still be kited in that sense.

Marauders are there so that sc2 can have their *legacy unit*. Honestly it is equivalent to the never used bc and carrier.

Maybe it should be able to walk over smaller units, just like the colossus does? I never use ultras, but i saw this idea being discussed in another post and it makes some sense.

With infinite selection for control groups and since most of the times the late game front line will be a 1-a zergling meatshield, it probably won't be much of an issue to micro units under the ultra (you either pull them all back and re-engage, or just leave them there to absorb damage). On the other hand, the ultra will be able to reach the front lines and get to work.

I think an upgrade that would allow Ultralisks to walk over only Zerglings would be good.

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Originally Posted by ManjiSanji

Why is it that all the anti-armored units are...armored?

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Because SC relies on a system of dynamic counters instead of hard counters.

ie: Ultralisks kill marauder and tanks mad fast, but they have trouble getting close. Every unit is designed to be supported by units, and to rely on usage, not statistics to counter another unit.


Which is why the Corrupter is a dumb ass units. Only unit in the game that doesn't presently do that. (To some extent)

I don't know if it's feasible late game, but maybe burrowed ambushes could work. Something like engaging with the main force, pulling back, re-engaging when they are over the ultras and unburrowing them?

The question with all these micro tricks is, "is it worth it or should i just be getting more hydras?" so as to win by mass. I suppose it makes a difference up to a point, then it starts losing effectivenes to massing lower tier units. The thing is how can one find that sweet spot of army population/composition. We need more graphs :D

I believe their role is intended to be "smash the shit out of stuff".

I simply think the unit size needs to be decreased. Then it's not that bad at all.

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Originally Posted by Blackdogkt

Maybe it should be able to walk over smaller units, just like the colossus does? I never use ultras, but i saw this idea being discussed in another post and it makes some sense.

With infinite selection for control groups and since most of the times the late game front line will be a 1-a zergling meatshield, it probably won't be much of an issue to micro units under the ultra (you either pull them all back and re-engage, or just leave them there to absorb damage). On the other hand, the ultra will be able to reach the front lines and get to work.

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Maybe they could get some variety of Running Charge Attack that allows them to rush forwards and bump other friendly units out of the way (possibly dealing a tiny amount of damage to them). It could be a point & click ability like the Stalker's Blink, and allow them to plow quickly into the front lines past waves of other Zerg, which would be especially good for reaching and penetrating Force Fields later in the game when there's a large CQC ground force in front of them.

That lets them remain large, and have colission work to their advantage, and be the monstrous units that they are, but still briefly bypass that flaw to be able to serve their newer role, and get into the front of close combat before they get killed.


X :cool:

Why don't they let certain zerg units move under the ultralisk? Like zerglings or banelings?

ultralisk's role is to waste your time, money and supply.

Get mustache lords, they are so much better in every way.

A marauder blob simply MURDERS ultralisks. Tanks obliterate ultras. Immortals melt ultras. Ultras do not beat any combat ground unit for cost, except maybe the archon, but the archon is even worse than the ultra is.

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Originally Posted by 0mar

ultralisk's role is to waste your time, money and supply.

Get mustache lords, they are so much better in every way.

A marauder blob simply MURDERS ultralisks. Tanks obliterate ultras. Immortals melt ultras. Ultras do not beat any combat ground unit for cost, except maybe the archon, but the archon is even worse than the ultra is.

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Archons can attack air Ultralisks can't. what they should do with the Ultralisk is have them able to "jump" xD "stalker blink except they get air time.

Maybe Ultralisks need a "Charge/Trample" ability that simultaneously does two things:
A. quickly brings them closer to large/armoured/vehicle targets such as Siege Tanks dealing to those targets instant damage in the range of 100 to 150 on impact.
B. Severely damages/kills any infantry units in the path of the Ultralisk's charge (in a sort of "lawnmower" fashion, the Ultralisk's charge would leave behind it a swath of dead infantry units if it charges through thick clusters of them).


Differentiating it from Zealot's "Charge" will be several things:
1. It will be a manually cast ability with a significant cooldown that you won't be able to use all that often.
2. It will have a significantly greater range (perhaps as great as the extent of a zoomed out camera) with the only obstacles capable of stopping the Ultralisk being buildings, cliffs and large/non-infantry/vehicle units.

All in all such an ability would outbalance the Ultralisk's native weaknesses helping it deal both with such heavy units as Siege Tanks and Immortals as well as large clusters of Marines and Marauders (the cooldown could always be tweaked to keep it from being abusable and overpowered).

I say bring back the Omegalisk and give it an attack attribute where upon acquiring a target (a la Charge), the Omegalisk shoots out a tentacle that impales it into place (worth one attack's damage); thereby allowing the Omegalisk to take its time to close the gap.

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Originally Posted by mr. peasant

I say bring back the Omegalisk and give it an attack attribute where upon acquiring a target (a la Charge), the Omegalisk shoots out a tentacle that impales it into place (worth one attack's damage); thereby allowing the Omegalisk to take its time to close the gap.

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If the Omegalisk/Ultralisk needs to "take its time" to close the gap, won't it defeat the whole idea of a charge?

Besides, still doesn't solve the problem of large groups of infantry and isn't it really just a glorified missile attack?

What I'm suggesting is that the tentacle immobilises the unit; allowing the Omegalisk to close in the gap and preventing it from simply kiting it. You could even increase the number to the closest two (making three immobilised units) to increase its effectiveness against groups of fodder units.

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Originally Posted by Eligor

Maybe Ultralisks need a "Charge/Trample" ability that simultaneously does two things:
A. quickly brings them closer to large/armoured/vehicle targets such as Siege Tanks dealing to those targets instant damage in the range of 100 to 150 on impact.
B. Severely damages/kills any infantry units in the path of the Ultralisk's charge (in a sort of "lawnmower" fashion, the Ultralisk's charge would leave behind it a swath of dead infantry units if it charges through thick clusters of them).


Differentiating it from Zealot's "Charge" will be several things:
1. It will be a manually cast ability with a significant cooldown that you won't be able to use all that often.
2. It will have a significantly greater range (perhaps as great as the extent of a zoomed out camera) with the only obstacles capable of stopping the Ultralisk being buildings, cliffs and large/non-infantry/vehicle units.

All in all such an ability would outbalance the Ultralisk's native weaknesses helping it deal both with such heavy units as Siege Tanks and Immortals as well as large clusters of Marines and Marauders (the cooldown could always be tweaked to keep it from being abusable and overpowered).

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I think some combination of our ideas might work. I think that wherever it stops, it attacks in a full AoE, but it deals it's structure damage as a Head Thrust (makes sense when charging), followed by thier normal Kaiser Blades attack to all the enemy targets in range (possibly double Head Thrust damage to structures). That way, you don't directly have to target a unit for it to charge at, you can target a location, and run them forward when dealing with force fields, and still affect anything within range of where they stop.

You want the Ultralisks to be able to open up blacked paths for the other Zerg to charge in behind, thus bumping smaller units out of the way, and dealing smaller damage to them, thus taking a small disadvantage in damage to those units, for the opportunity of opening up force fields and allowing them to penetrare and attack. As for dealing heavy damage to / killing infantry units, I think that with the Ultralisk's recently increased speed, as well as a fast linear charge ability ending with a small AoE hit, they should be much more capable of dealing with some of the problematic things they run in to now such reaching close clusters of units / single heavy units.


X :cool:

Melee was ruined in SC2 by perfect unit blobs and the introduction of ranged tanks. They need to get rid of all this hard counter bullshit, make Melee tanks again, and start making dynamic unit counters that work based on usage/skill rather than stats and bonuses.

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Originally Posted by XSOLDIER

I think some combination of our ideas might work. I think that wherever it stops, it attacks in a full AoE, but it deals it's structure damage as a Head Thrust (makes sense when charging), followed by thier normal Kaiser Blades attack to all the enemy targets in range (possibly double Head Thrust damage to structures). That way, you don't directly have to target a unit for it to charge at, you can target a location, and run them forward when dealing with force fields, and still affect anything within range of where they stop.

You want the Ultralisks to be able to open up blacked paths for the other Zerg to charge in behind, thus bumping smaller units out of the way, and dealing smaller damage to them, thus taking a small disadvantage in damage to those units, for the opportunity of opening up force fields and allowing them to penetrare and attack. As for dealing heavy damage to / killing infantry units, I think that with the Ultralisk's recently increased speed, as well as a fast linear charge ability ending with a small AoE hit, they should be much more capable of dealing with some of the problematic things they run in to now such reaching close clusters of units / single heavy units.




X :cool:

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Agreed on all counts. :cool:

The ability to target ground as well as specific units is most useful. The amount of damage dealt to infantry during the charge should probably be in direct proportion to the cooldown (shorter cooldown -> less damage), and yes, bumping them out of the way if they're not killed.

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Originally Posted by mr. peasant

What I'm suggesting is that the tentacle immobilises the unit; allowing the Omegalisk to close in the gap and preventing it from simply kiting it. You could even increase the number to the closest two (making three immobilised units) to increase its effectiveness against groups of fodder units.

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I think it's a little too reminiscent of WC III Mountain King's Stormbolt and still may not be effective enough. A Charge on the other hand encourages micro and more dynamic battles since it's not going to be as effective if the enemy player takes the effort to keep his infantry units scattered.

They should let certain friendly zerg units walk under them by default: Drones, Broodlings, Zerglings, Banelings, Roaches, Hydras, and possibly even Infestors, though that last one may be considered too big (plus it can already move under stuff while burrowed). This trait alone would vastly increase the protection it offers other units. Wanna be able to focus-fire my Hydras? Gotta take out my Ultralisk first!

I will say that the Frenzy ability is a valiant effort, but it's not enough imo, plus it's obscenely obvious that the only unit it's for is the Ultralisk. I think that ability should get removed and the Ultralisk should get its 600 HP back, along with the ability to let certain friendly ground units walk under it.

Perhaps. But under what premise (a.k.a. unit tag such as 'massive') would that fall under?

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Originally Posted by mr. peasant

Perhaps. But under what premise (a.k.a. unit tag such as 'massive') would that fall under?

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What is this "that" that you speak of?

You even talkin' to me? :o

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Originally Posted by Eligor

Agreed on all counts. :cool:

The ability to target ground as well as specific units is most useful. The amount of damage dealt to infantry during the charge should probably be in direct proportion to the cooldown (shorter cooldown -> less damage), and yes, bumping them out of the way if they're not killed.

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This also deals with the issue of 2v2 bumping friendly non-Z units away, so that there aren't just Zerg-specific units that Ultralisks can bypass, but they get stopped up by your ally's random SCV/Marine. Essentially it's a simple ability that can be applied universally. It would be blocked by structures, sieged Siege Tanks, and likely other Massive Units.

Again, my main thinking here is something that's not a passive ability, but something that adds in some strategy / micro for the Ultralisk, while still leaving it as a really large unit that can run into pathing / collision issues and block off units normally.

With the last patch not touching Ultra's, I'm wondering what Blizz thinks of their current status, or if there's even been enough time to test it...


X :cool: