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I'm finding this gas issue a really annoying gimmick they added in. Often times when the game goes on long enough, you end the game with 7k minerals and no gas. So I'm forced to fight a marine/hellion war or a zealot war or a zergling war. It's quite annoying how they did this. What kind of strategy are they trying to push with limited gas?
I feel it's poor design and a gimmick because they're *forcing* you to do something that you really don't want to.
That used to happen to me. It's not an issue with me as Protoss though, because it's impossible to be short on Warp Gates and Zealots.
I have that problem too. I doubt it's a deliberate design decision. IMO, they should up the gas mined to 5/trip, and maybe give geysers some more capacity.
Build more gateways.
What I find is that I had that issue a lot in the early portion of beta. Over time I find myself using the minerals as they come in better and better. The mentality is, the more "mineral" units you have, the longer your gas units survive. Unfortunately that shows more of a testament to this game's evolution as a macro game though.
I tend to have a hard time focusing on macro and micro at the same time although I'm actually really good at multitasking - just not good in RTS games apparently. So for me, what tends to happen is that I end up with a ridiculous amount of minerals and gas. And sometimes, I don't ever have enough gas despite have double gas or even an expansion. I'll admit it's pretty annoying.
When I'm playing Protoss, I'll just make a few cannons or a load of Gateways. Having zealots is good, especially when I've already researched charge and many of the ground upgrades (primarily the ground unit attack upgrade). I don't play Terran at all and I haven't played Zerg recently so I have no experience with how that must be annoying. When I play Zerg, I don't find zerglings very useful mid or late game unless I'm using banelings and even then because I usually face Terrans, they just destroy my Nydus Worms with Thors or destroy incoming units with their siege tanks so not having enough gas would really be annoying.
7k worth of gateways. Hmm! Actually, I built a load of cannons instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur
you could very well have 10 gateways and clear 1k mineral per batch getting zealots if you really have trouble managing your mineral it's not a bad ideaQuote:
Originally Posted by Wankey
I find 7k minerals of marines a great way to hold off 7k worth of zealots or Zerglings
I try to just "ninja" 3 expos by the time this happens and focus mainly on the gas.
Works really well with protoss since with the other minerals you have builded alot of gateways.
7k Minerals of marines =140 Marines 0.0" but yeah try to expand is the best bet
i sometimes get a few k minerals.. sometimes, its semi-justified to pile some up, like if im quickly expanding my capacity to gather gas.
most of the time though, i dont want this to happen, and only allow it to happen to a significant extent if im heavily pressured by interacting wtih my enemy(s), or if suddenly, all that matters is my ratio of a few certain gas heavy units..
the key to solve this, as pointed out by others, is to just get effective at spending the minerals.. preferably, foresee the "problem" and build up that production capacity before you even get that huge 'a pile of minerals.
next step is to make good use of all those mineral-heavy units.. and even pre-emptively adjusting your strategy & tactics to that in such games: upgrades are an integral part of making your units worthwhile, and when it comes to those unit-types that you'll be spamming the hell out of, its obviously even more important (same can go for units you use to kill what your opoennt is massing...)
only happens to me as zerg, since the new zerg gameplay with queens inject larva, is to stay on one hatch per base.
Ive been trying to get 2 hatches per base when that happens lately, but its hard. usually over 1000 minerals and no gas and now that roaches are 2 supply, I cant spend my minerals fast enough due to getting supply locked/reaching 200 too fast.
1. Expand faster
2. Build more defenses
3. Build more Barracks, Warp Gates, and Hatcheries
4. Train more mineral-only units
70 +1 charge lots are a scary thing. so is 280 lings. The base units benifit the most from upgrades and if you find yourself with alot of minerals in the late game you could invest in some of those upgrades with some of your remaining gas. Or you could expand. Gas is the most important thing in Starcraft and it probably was a design choice to make maps with less gas. That forces the games to be a bit shorter but if done right games can still get pretty long.
yeah but 140 marines just takes the cake. Marines are the scariest imoQuote:
Originally Posted by whitefire
If you are running into 7k minerals, you should probably be doing something about your unit choices. Roaches are 75/25 - Hydras are 100/50 so those are units you want to build to "balance out" your mineral and gas army.
For Terran - units that balance out gas are Marines/Hellions and Vikings
For Zerg - Zerglings, Hydras, Roaches
For Protoss - Zealots, Stalkers, Warp Prism(Not that I suggest you mass them), Immortals (slightly)
Personally, I still think they should give back the [1 mineral/trip] for the depleted geysers. It seemed...nicer. No?
Crota's on the nose, as are the suggestions for more gateways. The thing is, the suggestions aren't regarding having more gateways or whatnot when you have the surplus in the end of the game, it's a suggestion to get more gateways when you are finding the surplus starting, allowing you to better work with your resources before you get to that point.
It's not an insult to skill because with the way it is in sc2, It's insanely easy to get to that point. Just remember that for Protoss, 4 gates per base is adequate, if you find yourself getting "behind" than 5-6 is "acceptable".
^This, and Photon Cannons, to avoid pesky drops. After all, if you have 7k, you can afford to make them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gradius
It's probably done to motivate you to get out there and expand as opposed to turtling.
Yeah, most likely.Quote:
Originally Posted by TychusFindlay
You should macro more and spend your minerals (turrets, depots, zerg crawlers, gateways, cannons, etc.) Or better yet, stop focusing on increasing your mineral economy so much. You should only take what you need, because if you take what you don't need, you will lose having a smaller army size.
It's easy to get a bunch of minerals as Terran, but that's just because some players don't use scan or drop supplies enough. What's the point of spamming MULE's if you never use the minerals? A zerg player with too much means that he isn't macro'ing enough to produce huge Zerg armies or building enough ovies/hatcheries. Protoss players with too much mineral just aren't making enough production.
I think that while the most logical have already been suggested:
"Invest more in minerals than gas", there's still something that would be interesting to point out:
Why not make the high yield minerals expansions become just high yield expansions?
I mean, those places with yellow minerals, why not give them better vespene geysers? that'd make them a lot more interesting.
Now you may ask how better? well, normal expansions such as your natural have both normal minerals and normal vespene gas geysers which have 2500 gas each.
The idea is that high yield expansions have the yellow minerals and 3000 gas vespene geysers instead of the normal 2500 ones. As you see is as simple as that, 500 more gas for each high yield geyser.
Unless you are zerg, something is wrong with your unit composition if your resources are skewed THAT much. And if you are zerg, theres a lot of productive ways you can keep your minerals down (more hatcheries, more expos, more of anything that is just minerals).
Complain, complain, complain...
First you're attacking us for constructive criticism and now you're complaining about, "a really annoying gimmick." But there is no really annoying gimmick... it's not the game's fault, before you start blaming the game this problem is your problem. You should be able to balance your resources and the game doesn't allow you to accumulate that much minerals unless you're not playing as intended (bronze league). Please whine more..
So attack us for actual real complaints and then you go ranting on about this lunacy?
Try and contribute to the forum instead of take away.
I wish Gas wasn't finite. I understand the idea behind it, but it makes the late game dull.
Agreed. :D btw wasn't the whole point of having 2 gas to make decisions on whether u need 2 gas? It seems like all the games Ive played i used boht gassesQuote:
Originally Posted by Kimera757
if you have 7k worth mins than you are doing something wrong
I never end up with 3 or 4 times more min than gas
what I mainly do in 2vs2, 3vs3 and 4vs4 is resource sharing and in advance it's always good to have a squad member which depends on mass marines for example
I don't know bout you guys but soo far the best thing for me in SC2 is resource sharing as I use it in every team based match
if you have more than 1k of min make cans for defence, it's always better to have a good defence than not spending your resources on the army
i have too much minerals>warp prism+warp gates+zealots> opponents base and in return you get a nice harass or win
http://sclegacy.com/forums/attachmen...7&d=1274739663
http://sclegacy.com/forums/attachmen...tachmentid=776
after I get one pylon>gateway>second pylon I almost always go for the assimilator or another gateway and then I make it, early gas mining is a good thing you know
Has to do with timings as well. Do you grab one expo as you start your first gateway and another before cybercore allowing a slow build up of gas? Or do you grab them both simultaneously allowing a longer period of mineral mining followed by a sudden burst of gas? There are a number of possible variants depending on the build. Obviously in the end you will always get both, its just when you get each that makes it interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutaxilos
Its an additional early game decision. Then there is also gas stealing on the opponents base, which makes even more decisions possible (and if you feel like being an absolute ass, you can try to double gas steal).Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutaxilos
Terrans going MMM can get away with 1 gas for a long time, as can zerg using roaches or protoss using stalker/zeal.
Also, keep in mind that with 2 geysers in each base thats 6 workers instead of 3 working on gas. If you have an expansion up, you will be spending 900 minerals to get gas from the 4 geysers and 12 workers on gas. Thats a pretty big difference when compared to the old system.
Anyway.. yea... as I said earlier if you have 7k minerals and no gas you are doing something drastically wrong like making mass sentry and nothing else. You should always be spending your resources.
I don't really want to build anything besides battle cruisers supported by vikings.. Stop forcing me, what a shitty game.Quote:
I feel it's poor design and a gimmick because they're *forcing* you to do something that you really don't want to.
Anyone know how the long endgame resourceamounts were back in SC1?? I'm incline to believe you ran low on minerals and always had some extra gas.
Anyone can enlighten?
I very honestly believe that it is intentional; you get 3 times more minerals than gas, and there are very few units that fit that description. Terran are more mineral heavy than the other races, but the MULE can make up for that, leaving every race with more minerals than gas. There are a couple of reasons for this, as have been pointed out: to encourage expanding, and to encourage late-game use of early tier units. Late game units are designed to be more powerful; that's why it's worth it to tech to them. So they didn't want to make early units super powerful, because then all the games would be played with nothing but t1/t2 units, and you'd never see t3. While it is debatable how well they succeeded in making early units weaker (I'm looking at you, marauders) they still wanted to see these units be valuable later game. The solution: early, weaker units are mineral heavy, while later, more powerful units are gas heavy.
SCI was the same way, with late game units being more gas heavy, but there is a difference. Late game, especially with depleted geysers still pulling out gas, you had a lot more gas income than minerals. This made you start by building mineral heavy units, transition to middle units, then get gas heavy units late game. With geysers stopping income entirely late game, gas heavy units serve a different role: to encourage a mix of mineral and gas heavy units.
So, I understand your dilemma. And I truly have no idea why high yield mineral expansions exist; they have less minerals than a normal expansion, and only gather 5% more at full saturation. Still I like to think of it, not as them taking away your gas, but giving you more minerals than you need. Think of your late game units as not being bad because they're gas heavy, but good because they save you minerals. Therefore you have more minerals to spend on more t1 units, growing your armies even larger and more powerful. Macro isn't about building units, it's about spending your resources. And if you end up with 7k+ minerals, then you simply need to change the way you macro. Think of those 7k not as a burden, but as a gift; and if you use them correctly, you will overpower your opponents.
BusinessMonkey, when a geyser ran out of gas, it only gave one mineral/trip. It was still technically useless unless you had a crapload of bases, but it was WAY more than nothing. So, after a while, even though it was just one-by-one, your gas meter slowly rose above your mineral one...
SC1 gas from a depleted geyser came in packs of 2, not 1.
Or are you talking about SC2 geysers from an earlier build?
i know youre not being serial (mmmmh cerial..!) but its largely fine to do that too, jst as long as you use those gas heavy units to dominate the map -> control more gasQuote:
Originally Posted by newcomplex
I used to but then I got better
Wow, and I thought my games were long. I've never collected all the gas on the map, even in my massive 1.5 hour games. The most I've completely burned was my main and three expansions.
As noobonic already pointed out it was 2, and ofc I know that. I've been playing SC since 99-00. And my question wasn't does actually imply I know of the game, but it was a question - I guess - to more experienced players of what the norms of endgame income were back in SC1 - whether the mineral/gas income at later stages was the same as now in the beta or different, and in which way different.Quote:
Originally Posted by deloctyte
Hope I don't need to explain myself even further...