ZvZ post-patch13

I don't think it'll change all that much from patch12 to patch13, but since I barely touched patch12 I didn't make a thread about it.

This thread spawns from one major change for the ZvZ match-up: roaches=2supply


So how have your games played out? For me, it's all been massive amounts of zerglings and banelings, since even spine crawlers can't hold against banelings so there's no way a Zerg can turtle. It took me a while to get the hang of it, but once you've got the macro part (which is quite simple, even though I don't have a specific build yet), you mostly have to rely on micro.

Have you guys had any luck with ling/bling in ZvZ? And if not, have you got ways of countering it? It wasn't too easy with roaches since they slow down your tech quite a bit, and the opponent can make hydra/muta or just more ling/banelings w/ upgrades.

Roaches might still be a good option, but the very slight increase in cost (+1 overlord per 4 roaches= +25minerals in cost) kind of makes them even harder to pull off than before, and making roaches means you'll have more trouble destroying spine crawlers than the ling/baneling player.

What are your thoughts? I haven't had a chance to play enough games to try everything out but I wouldn't mind some of your feedback to accelerate the process.

i played some random last patch, barely any straight zerg. but i remember thinking to go roach / baneling against any zerg that acts aggressive with ling/bane.

i think 2 supply roaches isnt as big as ppl say, esp not earlygame ZvZ; they should clearly still be the answer to banelings. then you might want some ligns /anes to ensure those roaches dont get bypassed or swarmed by raw lings.

... ZvZ should be a dynamic matchup now. the only matchup im sure to benefit from patch 13: Frenzy ultras will brake up the lategame; though vulnerable to hydras,they'd break roaches easy and allow ling/bling to swarm in.

im also curious to see if frenzy will se any use on air units (probably not; making it a on-trick pony as a 1-target ability)

... im on the fence about what race to play this patch. probably mostly terran.

cg on going staff Hammy!

Yeah you're right, it's definitely really dynamic. I guess it's hard to get a general feel since it really depends on how many of each unit you've made. In the end it might all come down to micro, but do you think that it's even possible to reach T3 (for ultra) in a high level game?
For some reason I feel like the baneling is reborn (although nothing changed) because of it's potential to kill pretty much anything so quickly. I've even used banelings against hydra to great effect. And baneling vs baneling battles are really... weird.

I geuss its largely dependant on maps... though they werent incredibly highlevel games, iv had some ZvZ's reach teir3, mostly on desert oasis iirc.

... i think a key thing that can make games go on for longer is defensive infestor play. fungal growth is incredibly strong against banelings, and along with hdyras makes mutalisks a risky play too.

... theoretically, a play that could work 'd be to be agressive enough with ling/bane early to dirsocurage muta tech, bait roach/ling play by spending much on banes, and then transition into ultras (possibly while partially relying on Crawler vs Roaches during critical times of the transitioning)

... ultras are good vs Roach now, at least with upgrades & frenzy. they aint as good as one might think though, but by food they win by far regardless.

Well, I had a FFA match the other day with some guys I know, two zerg, a terran, and an AI as protoss.

I went baneling in the beginning, then transitioned to roach + muta harass.
I managed to hammer the terran player with commando roaches, and eventually over-run him.

However, my zerg opponent went mass hydra, and even at a 200 supply limit worth of roach and air support, I got trounced.
Even with all the upgrades, you just can't deal with mass hydra with roaches, primarily due to the supply cost increase.

I'm counting down the days to the hydra nerf.


On that note, I find most zerg matches I see go mass hydra, or occasionally muta + speedlings.

I think I'm going to go mass banelings vs zerg now, as hydra seems their bread and butter now, and it's the only real counter zerg have atm.
And ultralisks are still useless.

Using an FFA game as basis for a balance argument is insane^^. Roaches will own hydra pretty badly until you're maxed. Even then, I wonder if the roaches wouldn't come on top with basic micro.

However, in a more realistic scenario: roach >> hydra. That's a bit strange you're seeing masses of hydra since straight up hydra will get owned by roaches (esp +bling or ling).
Muta/ling would make sense if you throw in something to fight off the opponent's banelings though, which would shift the dynamic. That'd be interesting to see.

Yeah, and the range could also have factored into that. In a tight spot, or even medium, more Hydras can strike at the roaches. Upgrades may have also factored into that defeat.

So far for me I've only been able to play 1 ZvZ game, since bnet is pretty broken ATM. But from playing that game and watching some tournys it seems that its mostly Baneling/Ling vs Baneling/Ling and roaching players just seem to get overwhelmed.

Before the patch it was very very interesting, you could open several different ways depending on your mid game plan, however it seems that right now your options are limited. Players like idra and artosis are currently working on getting it to "work" again but it seems like its hard to get enough roaches out.

The 2 food nerf really makes the early game hard to pull off you have to build extra overlords in a time that you don't really want to be making them heh. Not to mention this sets drone production behind as well.

Normally if you take equal numbers into account, yeah roaches do beat hydras.
But when your opponent can amass twice as many units as you, your kind of screwed either way.

While I did hold out for awhile, it just came down to shear numbers.
Had I gone straight up banelings instead, I probably could have won, FFA or otherwise.

The only advantage roaches have atm vs mass hydra, is that you can get them earlier, so if your aggressive, you can shut them down before they begin.

No, roaches are very strong against hydra, and they are easier to mass (because they're cheaper). You could get hydra and roach at the same level in the tech tree and the roaches would still beat the hydralisks...

I play zerg exclusively, and a ZvZ match up generally turns into a sling race into bling. the winner is the one that can get their blings into your opponents mineral line.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by YohSL

The only advantage roaches have atm vs mass hydra, is that you can get them earlier, so if your aggressive, you can shut them down before they begin.

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Roaches are not used in ZvZ because 3 sling can kill a roach with easy and there will be more sling than you can make roaches not to mention easy run bys, plus the cost of the warden should have been spent on a bling nest.

Its also VERY important to get upgrades, as a mirror match a +1 attack or/and a +1 armor will amount to a huge advantage in your skirmishes. Making your hatchery in your main base has also been a trend in ZvZ match ups as your expansion will just owned by sling/bling.

people should be getting roaches in order to be more safe from banelings though. Roach/baneling should do wonders against ling/bling.

not sure if im motivated to test this mroe extensively though. we'll see.