Nukes as second teir?

Ghosts are being more useful in all matchups. EMP being shifted to them create a new use against Protoss while their abilities against Biological units has improved their use against the zerg. In doing so, I wanted to re-evaluate the ease of obtaining and using Nukes and was surprised to see it essentially "second tier". Please understand that all information is provided at this time and may have changed due to balance.

Tech Basics:
Ghost Production: Barracks -> Ghost Academy (Tech Lab on Barracks)
Nuke Production: Barracks -> Factory

Production Basics:

Barracks:
Min/Gas Cost: 150/0
Build Time: 65

Tech Lab:
Min/Gas Cost: 50/75
Build Time: 30

Factory:
Min/Gas Cost: 200/100
Build Time: 65

Ghost Academy:
Min/Gas Cost: 150/100
Build Time: 70

Ghost:
Min/Gas Cost: 100/200
Build Time: 33

Nuke:
Min/Gas Cost: 100/100
Build Time: ?

Cloak Upgrade:
Min/Gas Cost: 150/150
Build Time: 90

Strategy Discussion:
According to the Fomos Preview, 2 gas geysers is the equivelent of 1.5 geysers in SC1. This can help judge how fast we can pull this build order off..

After evaluating the resources required to build this as a rush strategy it looks as if the timing of it would be near the same as a Wraith Build in current SC. Map selection and scouting would determine if the cloak upgrade was required.

If not used as a rush, looking at the buildings involved, it is still very viable/easy to get nukes rolling along with whatever build you want with these buildings. I was curious if the ease of nukes with the information we have now warrants some interesting observations or discussion...

Neural Parasite a ghost, do I get to nuke you now?

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Originally Posted by Runei

Neural Parasite a ghost, do I get to nuke you now?

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Good question, My initial balance reaction would be no, but in theory, it would make sense to do so.

No unless you somehow manage to optain a armed Ghost Academy. Same as the original Mind control.

The biggest factor is that Ghosts apparently can paint for nukes from Bunkers.

With the old Nuke I'd have said a definite no, but with this new nuke (300+200 vs. buildings), I'm more open to it, provided they remove the ridiculous 2/3 bonus vs. buildings, I mean what's the big difference between say a Siege Tank and a Factory in a practical sense (same goes for the Baneling)?

You'd have to skip the Ghost's cloaking to pull off a Nuke rush. And even then, I'm not sure the results would be worthwhile.

No, better to just add nukes to a viable strategy.

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I mean what's the big difference between say a Siege Tank and a Factory in a practical sense (same goes for the Baneling)?

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It's called "game balance".

It's not so bad. 300 Damage will kill most units anyway besides those with more than 300 hp.

It's just that since the nuke is so much more accessible now having it do 2/3 damage to something is OP.

Although, I'm not fond of the idea of requiring 5 nukes just to kill a hatchery.

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Originally Posted by Pandonetho

It's just that since the nuke is so much more accessible now having it do 2/3 damage to something is OP.

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No that's 2/3 bonus (in this case 300 standard damage +200 bonus vs. buildings).

yeah, Pandonetho the damage bonus is actually a way that they reduced the power of the nuke since it's lower-level now. Before it did the same damage to everything and was basically a one-hit kill against every unit in the game (and many buildings as well).

Now that it gets bonus damage against buildings, that makes it less powerful against units, especially the high-end capital units (carriers, ultralisks, etc).

5) If the Zerg Infestor uses neural parasite on a unit, will that unit still have all upgrades / abilities if the player researched them? - 5c012ch3d
Yes, the parasited unit will have all upgrades / abilities.
http://www.sc2armory.com/forums/topic/6974

Im still curious if I will get a nuke because that would be so easy to just sneak/crawl (i think infestors can move while burrowed right?) on an idle ghost and jack a nuke real fast.

It's not possible. As someone said, you'd need to control the Ghost Academy.

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Originally Posted by Pandonetho

It's not so bad. 300 Damage will kill most units anyway besides those with more than 300 hp.

It's just that since the nuke is so much more accessible now having it do 2/3 damage to something is OP.

Although, I'm not fond of the idea of requiring 5 nukes just to kill a hatchery.

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It's not op at all. The time for the nuke to be casted is long enough for any player to counter it. There's nothing op about the new nuke moving to a lower tier. The original nuke was pretty much useless in competitive play (no don't start of with boxer's EMP + Nuke combo, boxer is dead k...). Now they finally making the weapon more than an eye candy and you call it OP? I vote for it to stay this way.

Er misunderstanding here.

I meant that it'd be OP if it had the power of the original nuke, which wtfpwned 2/3'rds of any unit or buildings HP if not outright killing them from the first boom.

I think it will be interesting to see how viable the Nuke is in competitive play. It is such a hard ability to balance cost/speed/damage. I hope they end up doing it right, because the line between useless and overpowered is very thin on this one.

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Originally Posted by Aldrius

It's not possible. As someone said, you'd need to control the Ghost Academy.

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Seems logical, as the Nukes wouldn't just automatically be launched by remote from the Ghost's weapon. It will be likely that a lot of people will check the coordinates before launch, and do the actual launching. The Ghost would just paint the target.

I agree with Norfindel. Why do you need the Ghost Academy? Isnt that to produce ghosts? If they already have a nuke researched and I get the ghost I think I should get the ability to nuke! :)

Its actually quite easy all you need to do is
1) Tech to infestor
2) Infliltrate your slow ass infestor into a enemy terran base
3) Nueral Parasite a SCV and sneak him out untill it wears off
4) Repeat
5) Repeat until SCV is in your base
6) Neural Parasite SCV and command it to build a Command Center
7) Repeat
8) Repeat
9) Tech to Nukes (dont forget supply for nuke)
10) Build Nuke
11) Bring your slow ass infestor near a ghost
12) Neural parasite the ghost and bring it towards the oponents base
13) Repeat
14) Repeat until at enemy base
15) Launch nuke
16) Facebutt monitor as comsat + siege tank anhilates ghost

Why don't I just neural parasite the ghost when the Terran has a nuke and use it against him? That sounds a little easier.

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Why don't I just neural parasite the ghost when the Terran has a nuke and use it against him? That sounds a little easier.

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Because as everyone already mentioned. YOU CAN'T.

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Originally Posted by Runei

Why don't I just neural parasite the ghost when the Terran has a nuke and use it against him? That sounds a little easier.

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As everyone else has said, you will have the ghost and its ability to launch a nuke
BUT
you will NOT have the nuke itself in your collection. The nuke will still be under the Terrans control

How you're thinking is like "WELL IM TERRAN AND THE OPPONENT IS TERRAN AND HE BUILT A NUKE SO I WILL USE MY GHOST TO LAUNCH HIS NUKE I AM SO SMART LUL LUL LUL (cept im really a fucking retard)"

the end

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Originally Posted by Runei

I agree with Norfindel. Why do you need the Ghost Academy? Isnt that to produce ghosts? If they already have a nuke researched and I get the ghost I think I should get the ability to nuke! :)

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Actually, i was saying that you can't, because launching a Nuke is never just pressing a button. There would be more than 1 human involved into the launch decision.

Oh I see, it makes sense to me now. But isnt a neural parasite like taking over somebody? The ghost is all infested/parasited and gives the order to fire the nuke after painting the target? This is all in theory of course I am just trying to determine viable strats as zerg user when terran comes out with nukes so early.

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Originally Posted by Runei

The ghost is all infested/parasited and gives the order to fire the nuke after painting the target?

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Nah, the point that's not what happens. The ghost doesn't give the order - the Terran commander orders the ghost to paint the target. If that doesn't happen, no nuke.

Hm, well I hate to turn this post into a zerg focused topic as I tend to always do...so I'll just bow out and contemplate now what I can do to stop nukes!

But there is a ghost-infester-scenario you didn't think of yet!
What if the ghost already used the ability and is now kneeing there (they still gotta wait some time, right?). Now I use the infestors neural parasite on that ghost.
Is the ability canceled?
If not, can I cancel it?
Do I get the kills? (Don't know what that'd be good for, but I want to know.)

Most probably, the Nuke (or any other channeling ability) will be canceled. If I'm not mistaken, that's meant to be one of Neural Parasite's purposes.

If it's not auto-cancelled you cancel it manually, provided the Ghost didn't just reach the end of the counting cycle.

Shifting the neural parasite question, I'm curious since it seems that the build has 4 vital buildings for anti-protoss strategies, (in theory) how often do you think nukes will be used in esports games?