Can there really be "meatshields" in SC2?

In almost every game that I can think of, meatshields (tanks) had some sort of ability or gimmick that forced them to take hits and/or receive more damage than other units. I think (think, mind you) the general consensus in StarCraft is that the inclusion of such gimmicks and abilities would be unacceptable. So, I don't see how units like the Thor and Ultralisk can really be tanks. If it is acceptable, however, then there are some various solutions that in my opinion could work out just fine for SC2, because I don't think merely being big and full of HP is going to cut it. Many of these ideas have been suggested since SC2's announcement.

One idea is to turn units meant for tanking into mobile LoS blockers. This would cause the enemy to compensate by either microing his units like crazy so he can see the desired targets or just getting some air units to do the job. Another idea is to turn such tanks into shot-blockers. If a ranged unit tries to shoot an enemy unit on the other side of an enemy tank, then the shot will actually hit the tank instead of the other unit. This would cause greater need for micro on the part of the opponent as well. Still another idea would be to allow smaller units to run and/or hide underneath tanks in order to escape from the enemy. The Colossus already has this to some degree, but it isn't much of a tank. Something like letting Zerglings run under Ultralisks would be cool.

Anyway, your thoughts? Can there really be tanks in SC2?

the broodlings/broodlords are meat shields, their entire design is being a meatshield ranged support. there are also ravens for defense drone, so u have to go for those or the ravens and therefore they are acting like meat sheilds. for protoss u have sentries and their defensive spells and altho not literally they provide the same effect as a meat shield.

"Tank" units in SC are considered those with highest Hp. And thats it.

We could consider units with armor, but you can upgrade all your units to get armor, and that doesn't turns them into tanks right???

I dont think Blizzad likes the idea of a mobile LoS blocker, because that adds the "random" factor to the game, and they are scared to hell about that. Thats why if you get shot from a cliff, you just dont see your attacker. Your LoS is completely absolutely blocked.

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Originally Posted by n00bonicPlague

Something like letting Zerglings run under Ultralisks would be cool.

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Ahaha that would be awesome.

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Originally Posted by n00bonicPlague

One idea is to turn units meant for tanking into mobile LoS blockers. This would cause the enemy to compensate by either microing his units like crazy so he can see the desired targets or just getting some air units to do the job. Another idea is to turn such tanks into shot-blockers. If a ranged unit tries to shoot an enemy unit on the other side of an enemy tank, then the shot will actually hit the tank instead of the other unit. This would cause greater need for micro on the part of the opponent as well.

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Very much in favour, great idea (anything for greater tactical diversity). It would also further define the uses of melee and ranged units (making melee units more effective in such circumstances).

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Originally Posted by KadajSouba

I dont think Blizzad likes the idea of a mobile LoS blocker, because that adds the "random" factor to the game, and they are scared to hell about that. Thats why if you get shot from a cliff, you just dont see your attacker. Your LoS is completely absolutely blocked.

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No more random than the Mothership and Arbiter's portable cloaking fields.

I would certainly like for certain units like the Ultralisk and Thor to operate as meatshields, and LoS blockers or shot blockers would be a great idea if it means I'll use them more (particularly the Ultralisk).

Hell, it even makes sense.
"Oh, I can't shoot those Hydralisks because they're behind that gigantic Ultralisk. I need to kill it to shoot them."

And I would love for Zerglings to be able to run under Ultralisks; it would definitely make them more useful, as any time I've tried to use Ultras, they just seem to mill about the rest of my units and don't serve much purpose.

I really liked the design of the races in SC1.

The Protoss never had any tank units, but they had strong soldiers. Zealots could take punishment but still died fast. Other units were glass cannons.

The Terrans had NO meat shields, they were an entire race of glass cannons. Deal tons of damage but die fast.

The Zerg were the varied ones, ranging from the basic Zergling to the Ultralisk which was the true definition of tank.

Basically, the Ultralisk was really the only real tank in SC1.

Now in SC2, they're trying to throw in ridiculous tanks everywhere. All the Terran units have had an HP buff of some sort, and the Thor is the new Terran tank. The Protoss have the Immortal, and the Zerg have Broodlords now as well, in addition to their ridiculously sized Ultralisks.

However, one thing I've noticed was that things die MUCH faster than they do in SC1, despite all the HP buffs.

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Originally Posted by MajinX

the broodlings/broodlords are meat shields, their entire design is being a meatshield ranged support. there are also ravens for defense drone, so u have to go for those or the ravens and therefore they are acting like meat sheilds. for protoss u have sentries and their defensive spells and altho not literally they provide the same effect as a meat shield.

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There's a great example. The Raven's point-defense drone has the ability to block damage that would normally be received by other units. Just goes to show what you have to have in order to tank: a special ability.

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Originally Posted by KadajSouba

"Tank" units in SC are considered those with highest Hp. And thats it.

We could consider units with armor, but you can upgrade all your units to get armor, and that doesn't turns them into tanks right???

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But neither of those types are true tanks because they can't force the damage upon themselves and/or directly prevent other units from getting hurt. All the opponent has to do is shoot past them.

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Originally Posted by KadajSouba

I dont think Blizzad likes the idea of a mobile LoS blocker, because that adds the "random" factor to the game, and they are scared to hell about that. Thats why if you get shot from a cliff, you just dont see your attacker. Your LoS is completely absolutely blocked.

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There is some randomness to it, but that's due to the randomness of the players, not due to some game mechanic. Player randomness is part of what makes the game competitive. Such an LoS mechanic would increase room for more micro, as one player would try to see and the other would try to block.

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Originally Posted by KadajSouba

Ahaha that would be awesome.

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lol yeah. Letting your Ultras walk right over your own Zerg infantry would be very helpful and would make the Ultralisk extremely useful in making your infantry very difficult to hit.

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Originally Posted by Pandonetho

However, one thing I've noticed was that things die MUCH faster than they do in SC1, despite all the HP buffs.

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True. But the reason behind that is the new damage system. In SC, damage was reduced depending on the type of unit.

In SC2 it happens the opposite: damage is the same against all units, and it even gets increased with the bonus system. I mean, tanks now deal 60 damage against anything. Surviving to that its freaking imposible. Unless you have your Hardened shields :D

well, the immortal was orginally though to be a tank, right...?
at least for hard-hitters they were but they can also be easily defeated, thanks to the ghost's emp...

i guess most of the units meant to be used for tanking are too easily countered or can simply get ignored...

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Originally Posted by ManjiSanji

I would certainly like for certain units like the Ultralisk and Thor to operate as meatshields, and LoS blockers or shot blockers would be a great idea if it means I'll use them more (particularly the Ultralisk).

Hell, it even makes sense.
"Oh, I can't shoot those Hydralisks because they're behind that gigantic Ultralisk. I need to kill it to shoot them."

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If its going to work that way then it needs to do the reverse as well. Your hydralisks can't shoot because your own unit is in the way. Same shit happends in real life. Your squadmate crosses your line of site and you have to drop your weapon til he passes.

Starcraft =/= Real Life

What's fun about starcraft is that you micro your forces to shield or cover other units. If you want your tanks to shield marine firepower away from your helions, you send them first. You want to nulify tanks as a protoss, you send in a couple of immortals to gain ground before attacking the tanks with stalkers. It is easy to learn and hard to master: timing, quantity, distance, and micro are all factors.

As an example: In progammer PvT StarCraft original matches, a protoss fighting mech was probably the most painfull thing to beat. A combined force of zealots and dragoons could not stand a chance against this force unless you send in your speedlots for a timed attack against the tank shells and then move in with the dragoons for support. Do it backwards and your dragoons get nailed by the tanks, do it together and you lose to many dragoons to take down the rest of the forces. Besides, if the terran uses mines your dragoons and zealots would clutter up and die to mines easier.

Starcraft is not about sending all your units into battle and let the player with the best army win. You deal with micro.

But you have to admit a Los blocker unit increase the room for micro. And Btw there is nothing random about it, place your unit well and not in the same ctrl group and you will pwn you opponent.

What made people want to shoot ultralisks in Brood Wars rather than the zerglings who dealt the real damage?

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So, I don't see how units like the Thor and Ultralisk can really be tanks.

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And yet, Ultralisks worked just fine as tanks in SC1.

dunno bout meatshields but Marines, Zealots, Zerglings are natural cannon fodders.
not to mention the Immortal and the Ultralisk.

Point Defense Drones absorb some damage tho.

We seem to be dealing with competing/overlapping definitions here. Tanks and meatshields are not one in the same, but some units can fulfill both roles.

A meatshield can be defined as:

One who spares others from damage

A tanking unit is:

A unit designed to take heavy damage while also dealing heavy damage.

That said, any tank unit can be described as a meatshield to the extent its "awe" factor redirects fire in its direction. Examples: Ultralisk, BC, Carrier, Siege Tank, Archon, Immortal, Broodlord. This indirect overlap is where we are drawing our examples and some confusion.

The idea of making these tank units true meatshields by design or ability requires a rebalancing to account for a new element of realism that is not really necessary. If they add any more micro to this game, they may have to pull a CnC 4 and eliminate macro so we can concentrate on all of this micro effectively.

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Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas

And yet, Ultralisks worked just fine as tanks in SC1.

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And yet, you waste a perfectly good post by not even bothering to explain to us noobs how they worked just fine as tanks in SC1 :p

Because they did massive damage? 20 damage and a fast attack rate, they had one of the highest DPS in the game, besides the Zergling.

They raped things hard, and soaked damage at the same time. That's why they worked fine as tanks. If you ignore Ultralisks, it doesn't end up very good in your favour.

Also, even if you wanted to ignore them, units tend to target the first thing they see (as that theory was proven by whoever did that test). So, it's going to be impossible to target only Zerglings with all your troops, as a part of your army will always be shooting Ultralisks.

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Originally Posted by Pandonetho

Because they did massive damage? 20 damage and a fast attack rate, they had one of the highest DPS in the game, besides the Zergling.

They raped things hard, and soaked damage at the same time. That's why they worked fine as tanks. If you ignore Ultralisks, it doesn't end up very good in your favour.

Also, even if you wanted to ignore them, units tend to target the first thing they see (as that theory was proven by whoever did that test). So, it's going to be impossible to target only Zerglings with all your troops, as a part of your army will always be shooting Ultralisks.

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I think that was the issue, you shot at the Ultralisks... so that you would Stop having to shoot at the Ultralisks.

Ultralisks are meatshields in BW and their damage output isn't nothing to write home about. What makes them meatshields, is that once a unit begins to attack them, they're going to be attacking him for a very long time, while the small units do their job. I don't know how the priorities are exactly, but i bet that higher dmg units have higher priority, no matter the real dps they can deal.

In other words, it works already. Good luck trying to force attacking the Zerglings.

lol I thought u ment meat shield as in you take a marine or something hostage and force them to take damage until it dies lol XD

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Originally Posted by Kacaier

What made people want to shoot ultralisks in Brood Wars rather than the zerglings who dealt the real damage?

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That's the point, you won't. Ultralisks made pityfull damage next to the mob of Zerglings, but how do you tell your units to attack the Zerglings? You can't, so it's a meatshield. I bet that units, unless attacked first by another unit, target the unit with the highest attack within range first. Thanks to retard pathing, sometimes melee units will completely ignore the Zerglings even if they completely surround the Ultralisk (thus, no path to attack him).

My thoughts on a meat shield is something that can take long periods of damage, but deal a less damage during that period. They soak up damage, but cannot do damage much.

In sc2, I can see a CC dying to 8-10 marauders in a few seconds. 4 dts eat up a hatchery in a blink.

And it feels like browder wants players to lose an army's total damage by forcing focus fire on high-HP, high damage dealing units (like the thor) or suffer the consequence.

I favor not this route, since there's a huge tendency of certain units reaching critical mass.

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Originally Posted by Norfindel

That's the point, you won't. Ultralisks made pityfull damage next to the mob of Zerglings, but how do you tell your units to attack the Zerglings? You can't, so it's a meatshield. I bet that units, unless attacked first by another unit, target the unit with the highest attack within range first. Thanks to retard pathing, sometimes melee units will completely ignore the Zerglings even if they completely surround the Ultralisk (thus, no path to attack him).

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This isn't exactly true...you can simply NOT select the ultralisk?

Micro your marines back and then open fire--some lings will be hit and killed easily.

This micro maneuver should also draw LINGS up, rather than ultralisks, because lings move much faster. Indeed, if both speed upgrades are finished, the lings will definitely chase the marines faster and thus the meatshield has been effectively cast to the side.

"Tanks" don´t exist in SC like they do in MMORPGs since the opposition is sentient and there is no independent "aggro" system. What exists however is bad matchups of units. High HP don´t neccesserly mean high survivability, it means however that certain matchups go into your favour, just like being lot´s of units with little HP.

The Ultras issue isn´t that it´s a Tank in a world where Tanking doesn´t work but it´s a High-Techunit whose counters are lower Tech. Marauders and Sentrys are on the field before Ultras are even available.

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That's the point, you won't. Ultralisks made pityfull damage next to the mob of Zerglings,

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And also 2 shot killed marines. Yeah, that's definitely pitiful compared to a Zergling mob of Zerglings, but not pitiful all in the actual sense of the word.

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Micro your marines back and then open fire--some lings will be hit and killed easily.

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Not that easy seeing how it requires the use of stim to do this properly without getting killed while trying to move back. Not to mention medics just love to get in the way of your own infantry units thanks to the bad pathing, and it also costs 10 HP to do it.