MULE’s and Mining

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Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid

Please ensure its clear this is directed at the OP, not me.

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Sorry, somehow mixed you two up. Still the message applies. You said that the minerals mined by MULEs outweight the value in defense the PF provides. I really wonder, especially since I don´t know how much the MULEs actually mine and how strong the PF exactly is.
If it doesn´t add up they either have to improve the PF until it´s worth it or remove it.

I suggest that the M.U.L.E. be able to gather the precious third resource Smithore.

http://www.coolrom.com/screenshots/nes/M.U.L.E..gif

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Originally Posted by unentschieden

Sorry, somehow mixed you two up. Still the message applies. You said that the minerals mined by MULEs outweight the value in defense the PF provides. I really wonder, especially since I don´t know how much the MULEs actually mine and how strong the PF exactly is.
If it doesn´t add up they either have to improve the PF until it´s worth it or remove it.

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1) MULEs mine three times more minerals than SCVs.

Source quote: "Currently the MULE mines three times the minerals of a normal SCV per round."

Source link: http://sc2pod.com/news/Fan_Site_QA_3__SC2Pod/ (SC2Pod Q&A.)

I seriously doubt MULEs will continue to mine at that rate.

2) Get info on the planetary fortress here. Again, stats are always in flux, but beefing it up might not work. If you buy one, it's wasted if the enemy does not attack, while you could use the extra resources provided by MULEs to protect new expansions anyway and probably still have enough to get an edge in other areas (eg offense, scouting, whatever).

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Originally Posted by Kimera757

1) MULEs mine three times more minerals than SCVs.

Source quote: "Currently the MULE mines three times the minerals of a normal SCV per round."

Source link: [http://sc2pod.com/news/Fan_Site_QA_3__SC2Pod/ SC2Pod Q&A].

I seriously doubt MULEs will continue to mine at that rate.

2) Get info on the planetary fortress here. Again, stats are always in flux, but beefing it up might not work. If you buy one, it's wasted if the enemy does not attack, while you could use the extra resources provided by MULEs to protect new expansions anyway and probably still have enough to get an edge in other areas (eg offense, scouting, whatever).

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Quoted because its EXACTLY what I was going to say.

I've never found a solid way of describing this, so follow along with disgust >.<

I always found it interesting that the Command Center was created with the means to convert a central portion of the base to a cannon. My thought was how they would convert those items to a scanner and portion to improve mineral Production. In thinking of the barrels of the cannon, I came up with an idea.

How about the barrels of the cannon became some sort of burrowing arm of the command center, which burrowed into a mineral patch and focused energy from the base to burn into the crystal at a fast pace and essentially inject the crystals directly to the command center. It would improve macro, explain where the extra parts came from and explain why the scan wouldn't work as well.

MULE does explain the energy portion and honestly is more useful. (You can toss MULES down in front of your marines to create a fake wall in a pinch)

I kept thinking about making MULES into mines as well, mobile explosive units, but then I thought too much about terran banelings... or a mobile version of the Raider bombs.

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Originally Posted by Kimera757

1) MULEs mine three times more minerals than SCVs.

Source quote: "Currently the MULE mines three times the minerals of a normal SCV per round."

Source link: [http://sc2pod.com/news/Fan_Site_QA_3__SC2Pod/ SC2Pod Q&A].

I seriously doubt MULEs will continue to mine at that rate.

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So far I already knew but I´d like to know how much they cost in energy and how long they last. From the BR2 I estimate 50 energy (2 OC, 7MULEs) and they seemed to last from 19:45 to 20:50.

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Originally Posted by Kimera757

2) Get info on the planetary fortress here. Again, stats are always in flux, but beefing it up might not work. If you buy one, it's wasted if the enemy does not attack, while you could use the extra resources provided by MULEs to protect new expansions anyway and probably still have enough to get an edge in other areas (eg offense, scouting, whatever).

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It´s actually the BEST case if the PF prevents the enemy from attacking. Defense isn´t about the enemy suiciding against your defense line but protecting your economy.

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Originally Posted by unentschieden

It´s actually the BEST case if the PF prevents the enemy from attacking. Defense isn´t about the enemy suicidal against your defense line but protecting your economy.

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This is true. But since Terran defense can be achieved though alternative means such as bunkers and turrets, but supply-less rapid mining from MULES cannot, the MULES will always win.

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Originally Posted by Kimera757

We are in disagreement that there is a choice on how to use MULEs, it seems. Or something. There is only one way to use MULEs -- to harvest minerals.

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There is only one way to use spawn larvae -- to make larvae. You seem to be thinking that a unit production slot equals a unit. Actually its unit production slot + min/gas+time =unit. Spawn larvae releases the pressure on the production slot part of the equation. MULEs release pressure on the min/gas. And, I think warp-in and reactors release pressure on the time.

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Originally Posted by Kimera757

Because minerals are so important to the game, a player who uses MULEs always beat a player who doesn't, if their skill levels are anywhere close to each other. (It doesn't help that busywork is boring; people who are playing for fun will lose so often they'll leave battle.net, never to return.)

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Unit production slots are also importnat to the game and a player that uses spawn larvae will always beat a player who doesnt. Unless ofcourse that player who doesnt is using his time to cast psi-storms and out micro your army. Which you pointed out so I agree with you.

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Originally Posted by Kimera757

What do larvae get you? Each one can give a drone, overlord, zergling, roach, corruptor, mutalisk, hydralisk, infestor, or ultralisk.) Note that you can use drones to get more minerals (if you don't mind paying up front for them) but you still have potentially eight more options.)

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Decisions you can make with 200 minerals (ill use SC1 stuff)
SCVs
Supply depot
Refinery
Barracks
Engineering Bay
Turret
Bunker
Acadimy
Vulture
Marine
Repair

And thats not even counting the decisions you can make if you have some gas too.

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Originally Posted by Kimera757

So what's the problem with permanent MULEs? You no longer have the fast and constant screen switching that some fans consider exciting.

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SCV's are permanant and in SC1 they promote constant screen switching.

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Originally Posted by Kimera757

I disagree. Energy I wasted on larvae I'm not using can be spend on creep tumors (you have to have those, and I'd rather spend energy than drones on more permanent creep) or on Razor Swarms (great for base defense). Also, if you fill up a hatchery with extra larvae, they stop generating, and every 20 seconds (or however often a larvae automatically spawns for free) you've basically wasted one of the summoned larvae. Unlike minerals, where (if you're a poor player) you could store for half the game before using.

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If your not going to use the minerals for half the game wouldnt it be better to use the energy for supply or comsat and just let your SCV's mine the minerals at normal rate?

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Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid

This is true. But since Terran defense can be achieved though alternative means such as bunkers and turrets, but supply-less rapid mining from MULES cannot, the MULES will always win.

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Except perhaps in gold-mineral patches where assault is almost guaranteed to be heavy, and at least you can drop in mules from other OCs.

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Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid

The MULE is nothing but an timed APM sink. I believe macro can be more than that. Like spawn larva. Using it is not required at a constant interval, and its weighed against other meaningful abilities (Creep Tumor and Razor Swarm). MILES and proton charge require to be clicked every x seconds to stay up with resource collection. That's not fun, that's busywork, which the pros may love but will ruin the game for everyone else. They provide no choice, no strategy.

The bottom line is, the nature of the MULE (in its current or your suggested form) is flawed. The MULE will ALWAYS be best used to mine. No matter any abilities you give it (unless those abilities do not interfere with its mining), this will remain true. Because the game is, at its simplest, the most effective way to maximize resource intake and output. As long as a MULE can bring in more resources than it costs, it will be used for mining. Only if it does not provide a significant payback for its cost will it either be used for its secondary purposes (like Mines) or not used at all. The same goes with Proton Charge.

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Repped. Sorry it's just imaginary though.