Now that in Patch 11, The Roach costs 2 supply, It should get Its regen back, because the higher the supply the stronger the Unit RIGHT??
Support :)
No Support :(
EDIT: deleted armor because of most people want the regen :D
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Now that in Patch 11, The Roach costs 2 supply, It should get Its regen back, because the higher the supply the stronger the Unit RIGHT??
Support :)
No Support :(
EDIT: deleted armor because of most people want the regen :D
I support regen, but not due to the control cost. I just think it's ridiculous that a unit that dished out 16 damage at a halfway decent cooldown and has 145 hit points only cost 1 control.
I think everyone should wait until things settle down before jumping to conclusions. Nobody really knows how this is going to turn out yet.
I completely support restoring roaches to what they were before.
Could you be more specific?Quote:
Originally Posted by Islandsnake
LOL have you actually played the beta the way roaches were before? zlings would simply not be able to kill a roach. Just wouldn't happen. I'm up for a nerf but they should make them do more dmg or something or give them back a little more regen. Can't give them armor and regen back they were too strong to everything except marauders.Quote:
Originally Posted by Islandsnake
Well DemolitionSquid, the way roaches were before, they'd have 2 armor and enough regen while not even burrowed to make it simply impossible for teir 1 units to kill them.
The man speaks the truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hav0x
There isn't much to wait for as people who have used roaches in all match ups now when they are good and when they are not.
ZvZ: You'll probably see more ling/mutas armies now.
ZvT: Marauders are a hard counter for Roaches and very slight soft counter (with stim) to hydras.
ZvP: Mass hydras with less roaches. Probably least affected matchup.
Give back regen. Thats it. That was the purpose of the unit, a fast regenerating unit, capable of soaking damage.
What? have you? Roaches have been nerfed way too many times - which would be fine, but NOW there 2 food ontop of everything, change everything back cept above ground hive regen and leave the 2 food - no reason to have such shitty 2 food units running around.Quote:
LOL have you actually played the beta the way roaches were before? zlings would simply not be able to kill a roach. Just wouldn't happen. I'm up for a nerf but they should make them do more dmg or something or give them back a little more regen. Can't give them armor and regen back they were too strong to everything except marauders.
And who cares if LINGS cant beat roaches every time, people were having some success with lings before the armor nerf - not only that but since there 2 food lings would probably still be better to build.
Bring the high regeneration back. Lets make honor to the Roach´s name
No man, I've played since the start of the beta. The way roaches were at the start it made them impossible to be killed by zerglings. Zlings can finally kill roaches in small numbers but I remember just swarming a few roaches and not coming close to killing them. Sure the 2 supply was a bad nerf but in no way should they give them back both armor and regen. I think blizzard was trying to force zerg to diversify by making it harder to just mass roaches.Quote:
Originally Posted by Islandsnake
I never said anything about lings beating roaches every time but lings should have a chance. You can't come back at me and ask if I even played and then be like oh.. they should have everything back cept ground regent. That's not what you said.
Edit: you havn't even played 1v1 this reset and 2v2 is a joke so shhh I got plat in 2v2 playing with my friends that have never played any RTS before.
What are you talking about I've played a few 1v1 since reset, ladder is bugged for me ATM but I have a pretty good practice partner. Also I don't need to play with the new roaches very much to understand how bad they will be now. ( I seem to be permanently in placement matches)
I've also played from day1 of the beta, roaches at the start were "unkillable" and then they nerfed burrow, which allowed for some +1 ling business. Notice how right now if you make speedings now they do pretty well vs roaches, its like you have a free +1 right now. Besides ZvZ wasn't so bad with only roaches once the burrow was changed.
The Above ground regen is a HIVE upgrade, and it was broken it also has nothing to do with lings. So yeah I don't see a issue with them going back to the way they used to be, specially since THE FACT that there 2 food makes them worse anyway. Lings would still be viable, spine crawlers are buffed now as well. I would still go lings, making 2 food roaches would cause me to have much less drones and prevent from moving out for a very long time.
"2v2" Is a joke, oh so we are going to insults now? I've been 1v1 platinum almost every reset? IM glad you and your friend could get into platinum! That also has nothing to do with this conversation, good job looking up my profile though.
All im saying is this change is a giant nerf to roaches, which have been nerfed constnatly all beta - if there going to make them 2 food they should get there +1 armor back and there underground regen/movement (not the hive upgrade though)
It has lots to do with the conversation. You have no idea what your talking about. The roaches use to come with a huge above ground regen and now you gotta research to get any. zlings didn't have a chance before because of that stupid 2 armor with their regen. Now that roaches cost 2 food that forces you to diversify.
The zerglings are like they have a free +1 because they removed 1 from armor...
Your profile says bronze 1v1. The point being is low ranked players generally don't understand the game because they don't actually get into a real situation where both players are good at macro/micro and the game becomes more a matter of balance then their in ablity to play.
What the hell -.-Quote:
Originally Posted by ChAoS
Roaches have never in the beta came with above ground regen, not until hive.
I am 1v1 in bronze but it dosn't show up under my ladders list and it tells my im still doing placement matches its bugged I can play as much as I want but it will never show up - it seems I can still climb up slowly though since I used to be in copper accord to the picture in my profile.
Lings would have a chance with 2 food roaches, even with 2 armor. Maybe not pure lings but you could def open lings vs 2 food roaches with 2 armor.
I can vouch for IslandSnake as a high Platnium player. His stats are just bugged.
Well I edited my post a few times... But no, roaches use to have above ground regen. It was just a lot less then the burrow regen. That is why the lings could never kill them, the amount of lings that could surround the roach would not be able to do enough dmg to beat the regen.
edit: Anyway lets get past the zlings for a second. Sure raoches the way they were, were way too op for a 1.5tier unit but hydra/roach was most likely getting too strong. that is the only reason i can really think of nerfing roaches.
Well ideally they would be
Control=1
HP... ~90-110
Damage ~12
Armor=1
and get a +5 above ground regen with the hive upgrade.
This way they could maintain their
1. Zergy swarminess
2. regeneration (at T3 it shouldn't be as much of a problem)
Like island said, they didn't have any fast above ground regen in beta. They were like that in the alpha builds I played, but that's it. Of course with the T3 upgrade they used to regen faster, but that's changed (for reasons I can't understand).Quote:
Originally Posted by ChAoS
I disagree with the people in the this thread who are saying that the roach should be buffed again. I don't think the roach is too weak now. This isn't such a big nerf for the early-mid game. It only makes roach rushes (which were dumb and were not "working as intended" anyways) and late-game roach armies very hard to pull off. And T3 armies that were still mostly roaches were a bit weird anyways. The roach would fit a whole lot better as a niche unit.
Now you can't make any more roaches when you're close to getting maxed out (because your 200/200 army will get rolled).
All they need to do now is buff adrenal glands and ultralisks and the zerg might get a whole lot more interesting. The only buff I can think of for roaches is a tactical buff. Something like increasing the T3 upgrade and adding another burrowed speed upgrade in that. Perhaps have the T2 upgrade only affect above-ground roaches, and the T3 upgrade only affect burrowed roaches (but make them faster underground than they are now).
Above ground regeneration was removed and will not come back because it randomised the outcome of a battle too much, your army could come out wide ahead, win close or the opposite outcomes; only with absolute flawless micro the outcome would be always the same.
Since SC2 aims to be a skill based game such big luck based factors cannot stay in the game.
And you are talking to the island that he has no idea what he is talking about. What an Irony.Quote:
Well I edited my post a few times... But no, roaches use to have above ground regen. It was just a lot less then the burrow regen. That is why the lings could never kill them, the amount of lings that could surround the roach would not be able to do enough dmg to beat the regen.
Roaches had above ground regeneration in some Alpha version, where they also had 100 hp and did 8+8 vs. biological damage.
Zerglings couldn't kill Roaches only because of 2 armor with what Roaches started, they were killing Zerglings much before Zerglings could even touch them...
Yea, I've been a victim to a one base mass roach rush. The 2 supply should help with that. There wasn't much I could do about it either... (I survived the first wave barely, then the 2nd wave wiped the floor with me.)
I agree with this nerf.
Off topic zany suggestion:
Turn the Roach into this:
20 sup
5 armor
40 hp
Able to one shot Thors by default.
Takers?
Thoughts?
Angry mobs?
Wait a minute....
Uh-oh....
(lol)
/agreeQuote:
Originally Posted by flak4321
I support not making roaches crap as they are making them now.
It wasnt so much random, but that late game (when you got hive tech) it became too much micro for the opponent of the zerg to handle roaches. If you didnt focus fire, they would regen too much and crush your army. But, at that stage of the game trying to focus fire control your 60 units vs his 100 roaches is just way too difficult.Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertRose
I would love it if roach burrow micro would come back though.
Thanks for the supports guys. ROCK ON!!
I haven't used roaches since they lost the armor. Their range sucks, and they are simply too slow. Stalkers destroy them, marauders destroy them, and speedlings can just run past them. In almost every case I'll skip them and go right to hydralisks. I guess there are some cases where they are useful, but since the 3 previously mentioned strats are all you really see now anyways it's kind of a mute point.
________
property Pattaya
So, they removed regeneration above the ground, armor, and now increased pop slots. This ain't THE roach anymore. Just an average unit. Yeah with 3 upgrades, that looks more like something you can do with map editor something that was forced, not something from a multiplayer unit.
The core unit is just an average ranged zerg unit.
That's the whole point. Roach is a support tank: enough hp and armor to tank properly, enough damage to warrant enemy attention. I'll be more than happy to see a Hydralisk resurgence.Quote:
Originally Posted by KadajSouba
Remember when there used to be 100 hydralisks+ 100 roach armies? Those were the days.
Uh, you are contradicting yourself here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sietsh-Tenk
Yes, you did good description of what Roach supposed to be, but they nerfed armor, lower burrowed regeneration, took out above ground regeneration, and make it cost 2 supply. After all that, it isn't as nearly durable as it was before. If it should be support tank, than they should nerf damage, not durability attributes.
The last patch made me think a lot about this and the Roach in general... So here it goes:
(Keep in mind that this is only my opinion on the concept of the Roach and how it plays in general, so it's better to ignore most of the numbers I put here)
To me, the supply increase seems to be a good thing. The Roach is supposed to work as a tank for Zerglings/Banelings/Hydralisk, but in a different way. Not by withstanding attacks because of high HP and armor, but absorbing the damage with their fast regeneration. The Roach could be seen less like a stone wall, and more like a sponge, which forces the opponent to focus-fire it to kill it, drawing the attention away from incoming Zerglings and Banelings. And with the supply increase (which lowers the usefulness of mass-roach), this would be a good time to bring back its above-ground regeneration. Of course, not 20HP/s, but more like 5-8HP/s would already be great. The Organic Carapace upgrade could be more useful, increasing this regeneration rate to about 15HP/s (I think that wouldn't be too OP, being a Hive upgrade..).
Another good point I see in Roaches is their harass potential. The burrowed movement coupled with the regeneration can make some good harassment options: while burrowed, a group of Roaches withstand static defenses and small troops with their regeneration, unburrow when inside the base, kill some workers, then burrow and retreat. The only problem with that is their speed movement while burrowed (which seems pretty patetic now), which I don't quite know why they changed it (was Roach harass such a problem back then?). So the Roach becomes progressively better as a harasser as it becomes more vulnerable in combat because of the bigger armies.
However, there is indeed a good point against the supply increase. The Zerg is a swarming race, and increasing their units supply cost seems to go away from their “quantity over quality” motto. So what if instead of supply, the Roach's damage and HP was nerfed instead? As I said earlier, the strength of the Roach should not be its HP itself, but the ease with which it heals it. 145 seems a bit of overkill (oversurvive?) to a T1 unit with this kind of regeneration, so a nerf to something along 135 or 125 would be fine. And while the Roach still needs to deal some damage to represent a threat and be a viable tank, there could be a speciation of the attack instead. What if instead of flat 16 damage, the Roach has something like 14 (+2 vs. Biological) and reduce the attack speed a bit? Not only it keeps its threat-ness while being a little worse overall, but it could create a better synergy with the Hydralisk if we consider giving it a bonus against armored (but this is different issue...).
There is a big problem though. All this would let ZvZ degradate to its original state, where the regeneration and bio-bonus forced both players to go Roaches because lings are useless against them. I sincerely don't know what could be done to avoid this, but I wonder if the answer could be Spine Crawlers... With their burst like damage, they would be great to kill the Roaches. Their movement speed could be an issue, but I think it's nothing that a good creep highway can't solve. The damage could be increased from 25 (+5 vs. Armored) to 25 (+10 vs. Armored) so (considering a change to 125HP) there'd be need for only 4 Spine Crawlers to one-hit Roaches. But there is the root time... maybe reducing it to 9 seconds would solve this?... Maybe the defending player should be using the Spine Crawlers defensively, like the Terran Tank push? Well, I can use some opinions here...
...So putting it all together, it could be something like this:
Roach:
Attack damage decreased from 16 to 14 (+2 vs. Biological).
Attack speed increased from 2 to 2,3.
HP decreased from 145 to 125.
Increased above-ground regeneration to 5HP/s.
Organic Carapace now improves above-ground regeneration to 15HP/s.
Burrowed movement speed increased.
Supply cost decreased from 2 to 1. (optional)
Spine Crawler:
Attack damage increased from 25 (+5 vs. Armored) to 25 (+10 vs. Armored).
Root time decreased from 12 to 9.
I'm going to stop here before this turns into a wall of text (it already did, didn't it?...-.-).
I do think the uniqueness of their regen is important.... and since when was microing your units to focus fire 'random'?
Perhaps with their Supply at 2, the above ground regen can be restored, either innate or as part of the T3 upgrade.
But I wouldn't make it more than 10 hp/sec at T3 and no more than 5 hp/sec aat T1. It shouldn't require a major amount of focus firing.
I would love to see an obscenely high rate of regen on the Roach, even if it meant that its armor and total HP had to drop considerably. There needs to be differences between the Roach's tanking methods and the Ultralisk's tanking methods. Ultralisks should be about high armor and HP. Roaches should be about high regeneration. The only effective ways to kill Roaches should be one-shots and super-high dps.
Blizzard considered not doing this "random". IMO, it would work if roaches had fewer than the 80-90 hp they had in their first incarnation.Quote:
and since when was microing your units to focus fire 'random'?
Let's ignore the issue with randomness that the Regen-based Roach had. The simple fact is this: if the Roach doesn't have enough Hp, then it is easily killed by the exact same things that easily kill Ultralisks: Siege Tanks, Thors, Marauders, and Immortals.Quote:
I would love to see an obscenely high rate of regen on the Roach, even if it meant that its armor and total HP had to drop considerably. There needs to be differences between the Roach's tanking methods and the Ultralisk's tanking methods.
I previously stated I agree with the nerf. While I still do, if the point was to make the Hydra be used more, then this wasn't necessary. There were already plenty of games where the Hydra came out because the opponent went air to avoid Roach damage in his/her attacks.
What's next? Double Zealot harass in 2v2 seems OP so Zealots get a nerf to 3 psi? Overall I feel Blizz is doing a nice balance job, but I think this is a case where the nerf is wrong. I agree that the Roach needed a nerf to make it harder to get, but this is the wrong nerf. Its intent and result are good, but it seems, on further review, this is too much. I would rather see them remain at 1 control and morph from drones rather than larvae.
I support the regen ability. I find it that roaches have became a tier 1 version of the hydra minus the air attacking ability as of the recent patches. As a terran player, I've found it quite easy to kill roaches without many losses these days.
The +1 armor is fine i feel, Id want the regen, but that is wishful thinking.