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Void Rays are rediculously strong but if you properly scout this prior to the initial rush you'll be okay.
I've noticed that vikings absolutely SUCK vs Void Rays unless in mass and that's null to this conversation as I'm talking about the initial Void Ray rush.
How many turrets do you need to have in your base to successful defend a 1,2 or 3 void ray rush?
1 per void ray? 2?
I find a mix of marines + turrets work well. It reminds me a lot of defending muta harass in sc1!
Void Rays and Turrets have both a range of 7, that means unless the Protoss micros his Void Rays badly only one Turret will be able to attack the Void Rays, but all Void Rays will be able to attack the Void Ray at once. This means for every additional Void Ray you'll need several additional Turrets to kill all Void Rays. E.g. if he attacks you with 1 fully charged Void Ray you need 2 Turrets to kill the Void Ray, if he attacks with 2 fully charged Void Rays you already need about 4 Turrets to kill the Void Rays, even more if the micros his Void Rays and you don't micro your Turrets.
Since Void Rays have also a range of 7 they can often avoid the Turrets and attack your other buildings/SCVs. You have to protect every building and your mineral line from every side with 4 Turrets simply to be safe from only 2 Void Rays.
Or in short: To be able to fend off Void Rays with just Turrets you need more than you can realistically ever have.
I dunno if Turrets are worth it if you only have Marines, as Marines have a shorter range than Void Rays and you cannot really force them to go near your Turret, it'll be useless unless the Protoss player micros his Void Rays badly. Turret become only useful when you have Vikings to attack from a safe distance and either force the Void Rays to engage your Turret or fall back. But maybe even in that situation Marines are more cost-effective.
As a Protoss player I find turrets very ineffective against void rays. Really the most effective defense Terran have used against a couple void rays is to let me in and then put they're marines between me and the cliff I came over, unlike most early tech deterrence doesn't work against void rays, you have to trap and kill them to scare the Protoss player off. I'd drop a couple turrets by your mineral line if your worried about that but mostly try to let the void rays in so you can take them out with mas marines.
I'm really surprised Terran players hate void rays so much, for the Protoss they seem to go down super-fast to marine fire.
I find that if you build a missile turret and hide a group of 8 marines or so with stims when the 4 void raids and they go for the turret you charge in with the marines and just chew them up.
sadly the PvT match up has a large gap, favoring the P by 8%Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland
VR are quite trouble some, marines are better than a turret for defense. If you are able to scout and see that is he teching VRs, you can SP and plug a reactor into it and pump out double Valk, their range is much large but from what ive seen you need alot of mirco. move in position let them shoot a volley and move them out, then turn around and shoot again and move them out, assuming the VR starts to chase you, if not just sit tight and shoot them down.
Marines are your best bet thought, upgrade you stim packs, it will help chase them down.
46-54 isnt an 8% favor, its a 4% favor, isnt it? If there is more than 2 parties involved then it would be an 8% lead, but since it is one vs the other then when one party loses a point the other gains.
So, if toss were to suddenly win 4% fewer games then it would be an even 50-50.
Think of it this way: 46-54 means that Protoss wins 17% more games than Terran in that matchup (54/46). Similarly (and thank goodness this isn't the case), if the matchup were 33-66, the Protoss would win 100% more games than Terran in that matchup. Even at only 17%, it's quite significant.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRabidDeer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland
The reason why bring this up is the fact that 90% of the time I go straight up mauraders. I constantly pump rauds and don't have much anti air ready (none to be exact!) . If I get denied a scout, going just rauds is very risky.
By the time he has 1 void ray it's already too late. If the vr is already charged, pumping 3 marines at a time won't do squat. I do build a engy bay for a +1 timing attack, but turrets cost 100 and I don't want to build them unless I have to.
If I know the void ray rush is coming, well they'll get owned. But good protoss will kill my scouting SCV and hide the stargate (proxy is possible as well)
I guess the moral of the story is that it's imperative to scout. Duh....
I've seen turrets hold off void rays before, but they can't beat them back by themselves, at the very least they will buy you time for marines though. Also there is an upgrade on the engineering bay that gives them +1 range, very useful in dealing with void rays if your opponent is truly dedicated to them (and doubles in purpose if you intend to use PF later on for expansion)
Otherwise if you are losing to void ray rushes a lot then start naturally incorporating more marines into your builds, and/or scouting more.
I don't know why Terrans players suicide by going mass Marauders, and completely fail to scout the enemy base, only attacking the Void Rays when they're already at full power.
I wouldn't think about quick expanding vs Terrans, unless the map favors that a lot, because of mass Marauders killing everything i can build at that tier. Hell, the Terrans could even build a PF on their expansion, and there's nothing i can do about it, either.
No amount of Void Rays can kill a sizeable Marine force, and a Protoss ground army cannot be great after a one-base Void Ray rush.
IMHO, Terrans got too Marauder-dependant, and too MULE-greedy. If i can tech to Void Rays from one base, while they're stuck massing T1 units that can only attack ground, that's the player's fault. Another reason is that the Thor is a piece of shit. If i were a Terran player, i wouldn't build that walking useless piece of junk ever.
Vikings should be ok vs Void Rays. But don't think you can counter them with the same amounts, take a look at the units costs...
The Void Ray is a unit that cannot be ignored. Be prepared for it, or you can die right there. But it costs 250m 150g, not cheap, and can be countered with Marines, assuming you built more than 5 Marines and a gazillion Marauders.
Lol, there's probably a great deal of truth to this statement much as most Terran players hate to admit it.:DQuote:
Originally Posted by Norfindel
Not without vastly superior numbers AND insane micro (which kinda defeats the whole point of being a counter in the first place)Quote:
Vikings should be ok vs Void Rays.
4 vikings vs 2 voids own them without losing a viking, that is if you move away one of the vikings when attacked. You can lose one viking, but they own at this ratio.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GnaReffotsirk
1 or 2 void rays aren't the problem though. The problem is when you have a critical mass of them. They become effectively unstoppable without near-godly micro.
And that's especially a problem considering they ARE relatively massable for their tier.
I fail to see how 250/150/60 is massable at all. Thats literally like saying colossus is massable.Quote:
Originally Posted by phazonjunkie
Guys, let's get realist. I can barely pump out a Void Ray or two to save my own ass when my ground units cannot stop the ball of Marauders anymore.
Vikings are double-pumped with a Reactor, and cost half a Void Ray. Marines can also be double-pumped, and what about using Stimpacks? Just don't get caught with your pants down.
What i see, is that Terrans are going almost pure Marauder and try to break the Protoss base ASAP. A Marauder lasts nearly 3 seconds under a charged VR fire. Terrans have other options in this matchup, but they seem to use this all the time.
A Void Ray is a very situation-dependant unit. When they switch targets, they remain at the charge state they are. That means that if the targeted units die before reaching stage 2, the VR is always going to be at stage 1. If you go running at the VRs when they're at full power, they will continue to shoot at full power. When the Void Ray doesn't shoots anything for a few seconds, they return to stage 1.
Yeah, I see your point. They can just run over someone's base. This is their potential at maximum, so strats vs voids should prevent the toss from being able to reach that mass.Quote:
Originally Posted by phazonjunkie
Besides, if the toss rushes to voids, you can walk over them with your ground forces. If you look at replays vs toss who rushes to VRs, you can see how void their bases are of units.
This is 8mins, 820 when he reaches your base, at this point you got some option to at least get 2 tanks with siege, and keep pumping rines at your base to shoo those surgical maneuvers away.
Not sure if this works vs Gradius though.
Vikings counter VR quite nice, when they are NOT charged up! Then they get totally owned.
marines and a couple of thors work nicely to counter a below 6/7 VR's with u losing some marines and possilby a thor but thats to be expected though it doesn't work if there a huge mob of VR's if anybody finds a unit that can take on 20 VR's it would be appreciated
Something i always found really strange, is why they removed the stage 2. They could had done something more interesting, like keeping it, and tweaking the amount of damage it does, and the amount of time needed to reach every stage. Hell, they could even tweak the amount of time it takes to lower one stage, instead of returning to stage 1 directly.
That way, the unit won't go from completely useless to WTFdamage, like it does now, and it could work like switching targets returns to stage 2, if it was on 3, or something like that, and make the stage 2 usefull, but not a beast.
The reps you watched must not be really good Protoss players... I usually have at least a few sentries and stalker/zeal and maybe a cannon when my 2nd or 3rd void ray is in the T base.Quote:
Originally Posted by GnaReffotsirk
Also, 8 mins? lol! I can get one in someone's base in 5-6 mins! Chronoboost buddy :D