Battlecruiser, a useless unit.

At 400minerals 300 gas a pop, they do seem like the colossi of Terran. But they are completely useless. Considering a flock of Viking can be quickly produced via reactor to counter them with ease.

They are currently completely useless in any game (have you ever seen battlecruisers in game?) Void Rays completely wipe them clean as well.

Buff them so they they do front loaded damage rather than small DPS which really makes them crap. Rather than continuous stream of 8 damage shots, it should be a burst of 16 damage shot.

Cust the gas cost to 250.

They certainly are worthless if you don't use Yamato. I always found it strange as well that the air attack was made weaker than the ground attack. It's base 10 against ground but only base 6 against air. I guess they want to encourage the use of Thors or something. Kinda silly.

I've had a pretty good experience with groups of battle cruisers vs. vikings--that is, so long as I've researched the Yamato Canon. When you have the ability to kill a viking (or a corruptor, or a void ray) with one shot, that goes a long way to making the battle cruiser more viable. I find that opponents tend to underestimate the number of vikings they really need in order to handle a large group of Yamato-equipped BCs.

I use them occasionally in TvP. They're like banshees, but better at absorbing damage, and they have yamato to kill off VRs.

What about giving them more guns, but introducing firing arcs so that they can never hit any one thing with all of their guns. this would require some sort of multi-fire selector, but I doubt that would really present that much trouble to a skilled team of programmers.

I used them once. A 'Toss player had turtled, and I took control of the map. I scanner sweeped and noticed that he was making a Mothership and some Phoenixes, so I bolstered my armada with some BCs.

With Yamato Cannon Battlecruisers even beat Void Rays for cost, taking into account that the Void Ray is the counter unit to Battlecruisers that's pretty strong.

You don't see them much because they're the highest tech unit of Terran, most games don't last that long. How often do you see Carriers, Mothership or Broodlords?

At 300 minerals 200 gas, you'd think that the Thor would be considered the Colossi of Terrans :p.

I've actually seen BCs used to amazing effect in a high-level ZvT. Unfortunately, I don't have the replay because it was on someone's stream (http://www.livestream.com/charella). This Zerg player is #1 in his platinum division, and he's very good. I can't remember the day the game was played, but it's with the current patch.

BCs still have that critical mass potential that they do in BW. Even Corruptors will struggle against a bunch of BCs, especially when they have Viking support, like what the Terran player did in the game I mentioned. Even masses of Hydralisks struggle against BCs because they have equal range, so you to really get more of your Hydras firing, you need to move their slow butts closer to the BCs, and only then can you start focus-firing. A blob of BCs that size will cut down quite a few Hydras before they can return fire.

Against Protoss, even Void Rays will struggle beating BCs unless you attain critical Void Ray mass, because of the Yamato Cannon.

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Originally Posted by GRUNT

BCs still have that critical mass potential that they do in BW.

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And therein lies the problem. Considering how expensive it is, how late in the game it comes, how much investment is required to get it at it's full potential, etc. 'critical mass' is the last thing you should speak of when talking about Battlecruisers.

A relatively small number (2-4?) of them needs to be able potentially turn the tide in an engagement if properly micro'd, and with sufficient support. If you're even able to amass a large fleet of say, 8 or more, that means you're opponent is doing something wrong and would probably have lost anyway.

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Originally Posted by phazonjunkie

And therein lies the problem. Considering how expensive it is, how late in the game it comes, how much investment is required to get it at it's full potential, etc. 'critical mass' is the last thing you should speak of when talking about Battlecruisers.

A relatively small number (2-4?) of them needs to be able potentially turn the tide in an engagement if properly micro'd, and with sufficient support. If you're even able to amass a large fleet of say, 8 or more, that means you're opponent is doing something wrong and would probably have lost anyway.

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They're almost unstoppable when they attain critical mass and it does happen even in high-level play, albeit not that often. I don't think there's anything wrong with that :].

And incidentally, a small number of them can turn the tide. Take ZvT. Let's say it's been a pretty standard game so far and I've got mech mixed in with my bio ball. It's unlikely that the Zerg will be too heavy on Hydra, and even a small number of BCs can be a problem that the Zerg just cannot answer immediately.

Apparently the military of the future employs every enemy of freedom. These things are ugly and slow, like the soviets that pilot them.

From what I've seen so far they aren't nowhere near as good as the BCs of BW, but the only time I mass up BCs anyway is when I'm mucking around.

Shame they removed the extra upgrade paths they had available for individual BC's. Now you rarely see them.

Archons own BCs too.

I see the Battlecruiser and the Carrier as air damage soakers. Unfortunately, never had the chance to build one, but i'm looking forward to it. They should be very good against light air units, that could be a problem for Void Rays and Vikings.

Something to try: 8 BCs with 16 SCVs beneath them on Autorepair. 4 MULES if you care as well.

Just a thought.

On that note, I've see a handful of thors take out 15-20 void rays because they had mules repairing them.

'Twas l33t.

One idea I have been thinking off is giving the Battlecruiser Warp drive: let it use all it's energy to fly instantaneously to any point on the map where you have vision (in essence teleport to the point). This would be great for attacking and retreating, it would nullify that pesky Feedback and it would give a choice between mobility (since the battlecruiser is god awfully slow) and firepower. It would also, probably, be horribly overpowered, but I thought it might be a fun mechanic.

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Originally Posted by Taoo

One idea I have been thinking off is giving the Battlecruiser Warp drive: let it use all it's energy to fly instantaneously to any point on the map where you have vision (in essence teleport to the point). This would be great for attacking and retreating, it would nullify that pesky Feedback and it would give a choice between mobility (since the battlecruiser is god awfully slow) and firepower. It would also, probably, be horribly overpowered, but I thought it might be a fun mechanic.

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That's an interesting idea. Another thought would be to give the ship thrusters which is in essence a channeled ability. While casting it boosts the speed of the ship while depleting its energy reserve.

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Originally Posted by Blazur

That's an interesting idea. Another thought would be to give the ship thrusters which is in essence a channeled ability. While casting it boosts the speed of the ship while depleting its energy reserve.

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I'm liking that idea!:D One of the Battlecruiser's main problems is the fact that it's just so painfully slow.
One the one hand, this meant that escape was simply not an option if an engagement was going badly for your cruisers, on the other hand, this also meant that if a battle was going well, enemies could always simply retreat and regroup and not have to worry about being overtaken, since virtually every other unit can run/fly circles around it.

The increased mobility/potential micro an ability like this would bring could make it more worthwhile without having to resort to a stat buff or whatnot.

I do agree...the BC is a bit of a money pit. And Vikings are an amazing counter to them, with proper micro. Not to mention a handful--yes only a handful--of upgraded marines. However, two or three BCs backing up a mixed force of other units does give you a nice edge in any engagement.

I do agree with some past posts that getting a critical mass airforce of BCs is not really all that cost effective when combined forces of different units can do the same job, and probably better.

The only other thing BCs are really exceptional at is busting up turtle players. You walk two or three in with Yamato and bash in their front door. Then follow that up with a burst or two from a Thor's 250mm guns and kill the enemy's first responders.

Good rule of thumb I follow with BCs: "Less is usually more."

battelecruiser is tragedy..as a carrier

terrible design

terrible portrait

terrible voice

and very weak...


edit:adorable model as a design

http://www.eurobricks.com/forum/inde...howtopic=36465

I'll agree that it looks a bit like an inflatable toy, especially with that large bridge on its back.

I like your channeling energy thrusters idea, Blazur.

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Originally Posted by Blazur

That's an interesting idea. Another thought would be to give the ship thrusters which is in essence a channeled ability. While casting it boosts the speed of the ship while depleting its energy reserve.

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Yes I like this idea. But speeding up battlecruisers isn't the problem. They should increase battlecruiser range.

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Originally Posted by Wankey

Yes I like this idea. But speeding up battlecruisers isn't the problem. They should increase battlecruiser range.

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wat is the current range? and if u have speed boosters, u can get in range quite quickly and then escape when needed, rather than have a slightly higher range but not being able to micro when about to die

BC
HP: 550
Armor: 3
Min:400
Gas:300
Supply: 6
Time: 90

Yamoto Cannon Upgrade
Dmg: 300
Energy: 125
Min: 150
Gas: 150
Time: 60

Fusion Core
HP: 750
Min: 150
Gas: 150
Time: 65

We can mostly agree the problem is that BC's aren't worth getting without Yamoto, kind of like how Zealots aren't worth getting without Charge.

IMHO, late game units shouldn't need upgrades. They should be viable right out the gate. Upgrades are to help weaker, early game units stay useful as the game progresses and more powerful units are put on the field. If you're rushing to BC's or Carriers or Ultralisks, do you normally skip their upgrades? Not really. If you're investing to get these strong units fast, so you might as well spend the few extra resources to make them as strong as possible as fast as possible. And when you'll be building them again later in the game you'll already be set. On the flip side, once you're getting these late game units, you usually can quickly shell out the fraction of their cost on their upgrades because you'll have a stronger economy. Either way, no one builds BC's without Yamoto in mind.

So here's my suggestion: remove the need to upgrade Yamoto Cannon. Make it inherent from the very first BC you produce. Maybe balance it by reducing the BC's HP to 500 and armor to 2, or increasing its build time.

Right now we're thinking and designing it as, "I need Yamoto, so unfortunately I have to get BC's." What we should be thinking and designing is "I need Yamoto, and in getting it I get access to a strong air unit too." Simply making Yamoto more accessible would help a lot.

I like mixing them with my forces, but I never make more than a couple of them unless I have Ravens to back them up. With a group of BC's, point defense drones and a couple of heat seekers throw in, you're in for a lot of trouble!

I honestly think the BC and the Carrier are best used as compliment units than they are massable units. I think it's Blizzard's WarCraft 3 syndrome that's causing that as well. ;)

Mixing BCs with Raven's spell that stops missiles is sure win. :)

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Originally Posted by GRUNT

At 300 minerals 200 gas, you'd think that the Thor would be considered the Colossi of Terrans :p.

I've actually seen BCs used to amazing effect in a high-level ZvT. Unfortunately, I don't have the replay because it was on someone's stream (http://www.livestream.com/charella). This Zerg player is #1 in his platinum division, and he's very good. I can't remember the day the game was played, but it's with the current patch.

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The rank doesn't tell you much, the rating does. Just throwing it out there.

I agree with demolitionsquid's idea, once BCs have yatamo they become incredibly more useful, even in small numbers. Making it so that it is not an upgrade would be a great help in increasing BC popularity and they are late enough in the tech tree that this wouldn't be a big issue.

As it is now... I use BCs from time to time (make excellent tanks/support and can force an opponent to produce way too much air d (have to have ravens to aid them though)), mostly in tvt or tvp. Infestors, hydras and corruptors kill most of the uses they would have in tvz though.

This wrong on every point except "they suck" :P.


BC do 64 DPS. This is the single highest DPS value in the entire game. On top of that, they have almost the second highest HP value in the entire game. Cost for cost, they should win to both Vikings and Void rays, though vikings have the advantage of being able to outrange them, a major problem.

How about if BCs are cheaper than now (say 350/200), but instead of getting Yamato as soon as you research it you have to upgrade each unit individually, for a cost (say an additional 50/100)?

@ newcomplex: BCs only do 6 damage vs air, vs 10 against ground.

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Originally Posted by newcomplex

this wrong on every point except "they suck" :p.


Bc do 64 dps. This is the single highest dps value in the entire game. On top of that, they have almost the second highest hp value in the entire game. Cost for cost, they should win to both vikings and void rays, though vikings have the advantage of being able to outrange them, a major problem.

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6 * 1 / .225 = 26dps.

10 * 1 / .225 = 44dps

Where on earth do you get the 64dps number from?

Probably from someone using old numbers (8*8) and assuming 1 firing cycle per second.

There are 2 things that the battlecruiser got wrong. While the little lasers look cool, its just stupid that you need like 10 shots to kill a single unit. Lets not talk about units with a lot of HP. Also, why the hell they do less damage to air??? I mean they are the ultimate terran weapon, the highest tier unit, why giving to it a laughable air damage??? 6???? Come on, a small group of marines can deal the same or more damage, for a fraction of the cruisers price.

This is (or was) my favourite unit, so it hurts to watch the actual state of it. Blizzard needs to start working on the highest tier units (Cruiser, Carrier, Mothership, Ultras).

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Originally Posted by MattII

Probably from someone using old numbers (8*8) and assuming 1 firing cycle per second.

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Yeah, they had 8 attacks of 8 damage some time ago. But still, BCs are far from useless. This thread reminds me on your "Hellions are absolutely useless." thread. I really don't know how do you get this ideas...

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Originally Posted by KadajSouba

Also, why the hell they do less damage to air??? I mean they are the ultimate terran weapon, the highest tier unit, why giving to it a laughable air damage??? 6????

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Presumably because they wanted it to be more of an AtG unit than an AtA one, though I have to agree that it seems like a stupid way to do it, why not just give it a few more underside cannons (so it does 8*8 vs air, but 10*8 vs ground)?

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Originally Posted by MattII

Presumably because they wanted it to be more of an AtG unit than an AtA one, though I have to agree that it seems like a stupid way to do it, why not just give it a few more underside cannons (so it does 8*8 vs air, but 10*8 vs ground)?

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I do agree it's a rather arbitrary change - but I think of it the same way how WW2 battleships had big guns for land targets, and smaller machine guns for air targets. Of course, they could probably represent that in game better, but that's probably the reasoning behind it.

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Originally Posted by RamiZ

Yeah, they had 8 attacks of 8 damage some time ago. But still, BCs are far from useless. This thread reminds me on your "Hellions are absolutely useless." thread. I really don't know how do you get this ideas...

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Hellion wass completely useless once you hit higher tier gameplay past initial worker harass.

With the new buff however, it's probably a lot better. They stealth tweaked a lot of Hellion stats including firing *distance, acceleration, responsiveness etc. The unit is a lot easier to use now and isn't so useless.